Toyota recalls and related issues: BusinessWeek-Media owes Toyota an apology
02-21-10, 10:39 AM
#511
spwolf - don't confuse the issue with facts. 
you're right, it isn't 'fair' but politics, and life, are never entirely fair.
sometimes a person or organization is at the wrong place at the wrong time. and sometimes when that happens they react poorly or insufficiently, too. i think TOYSPORT's comment that perhaps japanese culture and strong control by the toyota's japanese headquarters (i've heard u.s. subsidiaries of japanese companies, perhaps toyota too, have very little control over strategy or even operational flexibility) have made this mess FAR WORSE than it needed to be.
yes, they have an overzealous administration against them, an administration hell bent on helping GM and UAW by bashing toyota, but toyota has played this ALL WRONG. they've tried to be the 'nice guy' and they're getting stomped. they needed to come out and VIGOROUSLY defend themselves, their safety records, compare themselves against others, sue slanderers, aggressively seek a settlement with LEGITIMATE claimants, put major short term incentives on vehicles, and on and on.
you're right, it isn't 'fair' but politics, and life, are never entirely fair.
sometimes a person or organization is at the wrong place at the wrong time. and sometimes when that happens they react poorly or insufficiently, too. i think TOYSPORT's comment that perhaps japanese culture and strong control by the toyota's japanese headquarters (i've heard u.s. subsidiaries of japanese companies, perhaps toyota too, have very little control over strategy or even operational flexibility) have made this mess FAR WORSE than it needed to be.
yes, they have an overzealous administration against them, an administration hell bent on helping GM and UAW by bashing toyota, but toyota has played this ALL WRONG. they've tried to be the 'nice guy' and they're getting stomped. they needed to come out and VIGOROUSLY defend themselves, their safety records, compare themselves against others, sue slanderers, aggressively seek a settlement with LEGITIMATE claimants, put major short term incentives on vehicles, and on and on.
I know what you want, and i want that kind of response too.. for instance, Toyota Canada did it right:
http://www.vancouversun.com/business...481/story.html
Q Another issue arose this week with your 2010 Corolla. What is behind that?
A What happened was there was a press conference in Japan with our head of quality who said we were aware of the fact that NHTSA has these customer comments on their website. NHTSA, as always, will look into it. We’ll look into it. If action’s necessary, we’ll take it. But that turned into “Toyota is recalling the Corolla,” which wasn’t the case.
One of the issues I have with this is at the same time this is going on, NHTSA has a number of other cases going on where there are much higher levels of customers complaints coming in from all manufacturers. The one on Corolla caught fire because there were other issues at play, and because statements given out in Japanese, then translated into English, warped from “If there’s something there, we’ll look at it” to “Toyota’s recalling Corolla,” which is not the case. To that point, I have 88 consumers who have filed complaints on the NHTSA website [and none in Canada] GM has 1,200 who are alleging that their power steering has failed [on the 2009 Chevrolet Cobalt].
A What happened was there was a press conference in Japan with our head of quality who said we were aware of the fact that NHTSA has these customer comments on their website. NHTSA, as always, will look into it. We’ll look into it. If action’s necessary, we’ll take it. But that turned into “Toyota is recalling the Corolla,” which wasn’t the case.
One of the issues I have with this is at the same time this is going on, NHTSA has a number of other cases going on where there are much higher levels of customers complaints coming in from all manufacturers. The one on Corolla caught fire because there were other issues at play, and because statements given out in Japanese, then translated into English, warped from “If there’s something there, we’ll look at it” to “Toyota’s recalling Corolla,” which is not the case. To that point, I have 88 consumers who have filed complaints on the NHTSA website [and none in Canada] GM has 1,200 who are alleging that their power steering has failed [on the 2009 Chevrolet Cobalt].
Toyota also had 3 hours presentation to the media on friday on what they are doing to fix the issues specifically.
I saw it on cars.com... rest of the media barely covered it. Why would they? It is like even NHTSA coming out saying they suspect 5 deaths linked to the accidents with mats and 0 with pedals... you had it on ap and reuters, and rest of the media just reported increase of 34 alleged deaths without this little bit clarification by nhtsa.
it just sounds much better "gas pedal recall, 34 deaths", than "NHTSA says 5 deaths linked to mats".
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...solutions.html
p.s. thats old mat to the left, new one to the right. If you asked 95% of people around the world why did those people die in lexus accident, they would never mention mats, more likely they would say brakes or gas pedal recall. Which has nothng to do with that accident.
Last edited by spwolf; 02-21-10 at 10:44 AM.
02-21-10, 10:42 AM
#512
p.s. for instance, you will find interesting info in that cars.com article. Smart pedals will NOT disable street starts or drag racing, as it will not be activated if brake pedal is pressed first. So all the toyota cars with smart pedals can still drag race.
02-21-10, 11:26 AM
#513
^^^
Thanks for the links and info, spwolf. It is indeed quite astonishing how certain media outlets have been incredibly sensationalized and biased regarding this issue. There has been a smaller backlash with medium-level outrage by AutoWeek, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, Popular Mechanics, Businessweek articles showing how this has been wildly exaggerated, and also editorials by the National Post, Wards Auto, Globe and Mail etc describing how this has been overblown; even Consumer Reports and Edmunds have provided data showing how this is being treated out of proportion.
You're right IMO that the 'nice guy' approach left them open to attack. I do think, like many others, that the corporate response here has been ineffective, slow to respond, and weak. A more aggressive pushback, or at least a PR-managed one where statements are carefully calculated to avoid press controversy (although the earlier PR floor mat only cause statements backfired), could have prevented this from snowballing. While it's possible that more aggressive efforts could have escalated things with the media and gov't., I think that approach should be tried instead of letting the media and politicians define the issue...take control of the situation and own it.
The other thing that strikes me is that for the #1 automotive company in the world, their response seemed bumbling and inefficient...some have said that this is because Toyota has no experience with such an unprecedented level of recalls and media scrutiny. Also possibly because their corporate leadership is concentrated in Japan and there is less local decision making.
Regardless of how this turns out, I'm expecting that Toyota will have learned beaucoup lessons from this, and it will hopefully change their crisis and customer response strategies.
Thanks for the links and info, spwolf. It is indeed quite astonishing how certain media outlets have been incredibly sensationalized and biased regarding this issue. There has been a smaller backlash with medium-level outrage by AutoWeek, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, Popular Mechanics, Businessweek articles showing how this has been wildly exaggerated, and also editorials by the National Post, Wards Auto, Globe and Mail etc describing how this has been overblown; even Consumer Reports and Edmunds have provided data showing how this is being treated out of proportion.
sometimes a person or organization is at the wrong place at the wrong time. and sometimes when that happens they react poorly or insufficiently, too. i think TOYSPORT's comment that perhaps japanese culture and strong control by the toyota's japanese headquarters (i've heard u.s. subsidiaries of japanese companies, perhaps toyota too, have very little control over strategy or even operational flexibility) have made this mess FAR WORSE than it needed to be.
yes, they have an overzealous administration against them, an administration hell bent on helping GM and UAW by bashing toyota, but toyota has played this ALL WRONG. they've tried to be the 'nice guy' and they're getting stomped. they needed to come out and VIGOROUSLY defend themselves, their safety records, compare themselves against others, sue slanderers, aggressively seek a settlement with LEGITIMATE claimants, put major short term incentives on vehicles, and on and on.
yes, they have an overzealous administration against them, an administration hell bent on helping GM and UAW by bashing toyota, but toyota has played this ALL WRONG. they've tried to be the 'nice guy' and they're getting stomped. they needed to come out and VIGOROUSLY defend themselves, their safety records, compare themselves against others, sue slanderers, aggressively seek a settlement with LEGITIMATE claimants, put major short term incentives on vehicles, and on and on.
The other thing that strikes me is that for the #1 automotive company in the world, their response seemed bumbling and inefficient...some have said that this is because Toyota has no experience with such an unprecedented level of recalls and media scrutiny. Also possibly because their corporate leadership is concentrated in Japan and there is less local decision making.
Regardless of how this turns out, I'm expecting that Toyota will have learned beaucoup lessons from this, and it will hopefully change their crisis and customer response strategies.
02-21-10, 12:56 PM
#514
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I don't see how Toyota's management style has made this "far worse". Fact is, it is a difference of culture. You cannot expect a Japanese company to be super-aggressive, pursuing everyone and attacking them. Could it have been handled better? Sure, but it's not realistic simply because a major difference in cultures.
Frankly, if Toyota actually DID act super-aggressive, THAT would make it far worse for them, because it would result in a mud-slinging match with the media and the govt.
Toyota is acting aggressively with a lot of quiet and silent action. They have taken unprecedented, super-aggressive steps to improve quality, instead of a war of words with the media, govt, and lawyers.
Audi acted publicly aggressive during it's situation in the 1980's, and that made it far worse for them. Audi aggressively said there was nothing wrong with their cars, and blamed driver error. That was a huge mistake for Audi as it cost them a lot of marketshare and resulted in a terrible reputation for years.
Toyota is assuming all blame right now, even if they are not to blame. The media and govt are totally exaggerating and overblowing the situation, so in response Toyota is equally exaggerating how much they are to blame, effectively minimizing the impact of the media storm.
IMHO given the cultural differences, and given the major consequences of acting publicly aggressive right now, Toyota is making a lot of the right moves and choices in handling this.
Frankly, if Toyota actually DID act super-aggressive, THAT would make it far worse for them, because it would result in a mud-slinging match with the media and the govt.
Toyota is acting aggressively with a lot of quiet and silent action. They have taken unprecedented, super-aggressive steps to improve quality, instead of a war of words with the media, govt, and lawyers.
Audi acted publicly aggressive during it's situation in the 1980's, and that made it far worse for them. Audi aggressively said there was nothing wrong with their cars, and blamed driver error. That was a huge mistake for Audi as it cost them a lot of marketshare and resulted in a terrible reputation for years.
Toyota is assuming all blame right now, even if they are not to blame. The media and govt are totally exaggerating and overblowing the situation, so in response Toyota is equally exaggerating how much they are to blame, effectively minimizing the impact of the media storm.
IMHO given the cultural differences, and given the major consequences of acting publicly aggressive right now, Toyota is making a lot of the right moves and choices in handling this.
02-21-10, 06:53 PM
#515
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it would sell if toyota wasn't so bland and ineffectual at p.r.
3 hours of presentation (i'm assuming quite technical) is NOT public relations, that's a lecture. tiger woods could probably have talked for 3 hours too but he chose 13 minutes, which was still much too long - he was repetitive, and didn't do the right thing and take questions even if he had then chose not to answer the majority of them.
i agree with you 100%! that's why toyota gets an F for p.r. here. how about a full page ad about how 'toyota regrets the tragedy of the accident, which was caused by the wrong size floor mat from a different vehicle being put in, and nothing to do with any toyota defect or recent recall or other investigation.' show pics of oem mat, mat that was used...
more importantly, they need to SEPARATE THE ISSUES in a SIMPLE way.
people have all this stuff muddled together... they probably think corollas are being looked at for the same issues as prius and camrys, etc., which is all wrong.
maybe. i think your key point (and others) is that japanese headquarter micromanagement is a failing and one lesson they need to learn is to trust their u.s. management more to understand the 'local' market and needs / responses.
Toyota also had 3 hours presentation to the media on friday on what they are doing to fix the issues specifically.
but he chose 13 minutes, which was still much too long - he was repetitive, and didn't do the right thing and take questions even if he had then chose not to answer the majority of them.
p.s. thats old mat to the left, new one to the right. If you asked 95% of people around the world why did those people die in lexus accident, they would never mention mats, more likely they would say brakes or gas pedal recall. Which has nothng to do with that accident.
more importantly, they need to SEPARATE THE ISSUES in a SIMPLE way.
people have all this stuff muddled together... they probably think corollas are being looked at for the same issues as prius and camrys, etc., which is all wrong.
You're right IMO that the 'nice guy' approach left them open to attack. I do think, like many others, that the corporate response here has been ineffective, slow to respond, and weak. A more aggressive pushback, or at least a PR-managed one where statements are carefully calculated to avoid press controversy (although the earlier PR floor mat only cause statements backfired), could have prevented this from snowballing. While it's possible that more aggressive efforts could have escalated things with the media and gov't., I think that approach should be tried instead of letting the media and politicians define the issue...take control of the situation and own it.
The other thing that strikes me is that for the #1 automotive company in the world, their response seemed bumbling and inefficient...some have said that this is because Toyota has no experience with such an unprecedented level of recalls and media scrutiny. Also possibly because their corporate leadership is concentrated in Japan and there is less local decision making.
Regardless of how this turns out, I'm expecting that Toyota will have learned beaucoup lessons from this, and it will hopefully change their crisis and customer response strategies.
The other thing that strikes me is that for the #1 automotive company in the world, their response seemed bumbling and inefficient...some have said that this is because Toyota has no experience with such an unprecedented level of recalls and media scrutiny. Also possibly because their corporate leadership is concentrated in Japan and there is less local decision making.
Regardless of how this turns out, I'm expecting that Toyota will have learned beaucoup lessons from this, and it will hopefully change their crisis and customer response strategies.
02-21-10, 07:05 PM
#516
Without reading every post here, I would only add (to others I'm sure) that Toyota was/is their own worst enemy here. Past the issues that have arisen, they completely dropped their pants after the fact. They have the money, obviously they do not have the %^&*@ to come out fighting.
02-22-10, 06:15 AM
#517
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Uh oh!!
Toyota boasted about saving 100m on recall.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Docume...44297.html?x=0
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Docume...44297.html?x=0
TOKYO (AP) -- Claims by Toyota in internal documents that it saved money by obtaining a limited recall from regulators in 2007 create an even bigger challenge for the automaker's president when he testifies before U.S. lawmakers this week over quality and safety lapses.
Toyota officials said they saved $100 million by successfully negotiating with the U.S. government on a limited recall of floor mats in some Toyota and Lexus vehicles, according to new documents shared with congressional investigators.
Toyota, in an internal presentation in July 2009 at its Washington office, said it saved $100 million or more by negotiating an "equipment recall" of floor mats involving 55,000 Toyota Camry and Lexus ES350 vehicles in September 2007.
The savings are listed under the title, "Wins for Toyota -- Safety Group." The document cites millions of dollars in other savings by delaying safety regulations, avoiding defect investigations and slowing down other industry requirements.
Toyota officials said they saved $100 million by successfully negotiating with the U.S. government on a limited recall of floor mats in some Toyota and Lexus vehicles, according to new documents shared with congressional investigators.
Toyota, in an internal presentation in July 2009 at its Washington office, said it saved $100 million or more by negotiating an "equipment recall" of floor mats involving 55,000 Toyota Camry and Lexus ES350 vehicles in September 2007.
The savings are listed under the title, "Wins for Toyota -- Safety Group." The document cites millions of dollars in other savings by delaying safety regulations, avoiding defect investigations and slowing down other industry requirements.
Last edited by FireCode; 02-22-10 at 09:22 AM.
02-22-10, 08:51 AM
#518
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Looks like something has been going on over at Toyota.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/r...imited-recall/
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/r...imited-recall/
02-22-10, 09:25 AM
#519
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I am really not liking what is coming out now. If people want to blame driver error for not knowing how to put the car in neutral..fine. However, that should never be an issue. When is it ok for a car to accerlate voluntarily? People died because they panicked and hitting the breaks didn't help. I'm not going to fault them. I fault TOYOTA for apprently covering stuff up and making deals with the Gov. to limit recalls.
02-22-10, 11:35 AM
#520
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rofl - powerpoint ftl.
02-22-10, 03:09 PM
#522
Lexus Fanatic
WOW CNN is talking about how some families of the victims are going to start suing toyota. This really seems never ending. They also mentioned that they will be looking into criminal charges
02-22-10, 05:22 PM
#523
Docs: Toyota Surges Related to Electronics
A federal grand jury in New York has subpoenaed documents related to the sudden acceleration problems on some of Toyota's cars.
Toyota's president will testify before Congress Wednesday. He'll likely be asked about an internal company memo that shows the car manufacturer saved $100 million in 2007 by persuading government regulators to narrow their investigation. The regulators agreed to just a limited recall.
Congress already has thousands of pages of Toyota documents to sift through, but CBS News obtained one internal document that could be devastating to Toyota's claims that electronics aren't at issue.
CBS News has learned that as early as 2005 Toyota engineers were redesigning software in response to complaints of cars surging unexpectedly, reports CBS News Correspondent Sharyl Attkisson.
That could be crucial because publicly Toyota has insisted for six years - through eight federal investigations - that electronics are not to blame when its cars surge, sometimes out of control.
Instead, Toyota faults drivers, floor mats and - more recently - sticky gas pedals.
The internal document obtained by CBS News appears to contradict Toyota's claims. Dating back five years, it tracks Toyota's "monthly progress" in addressing "Surging back and forth sensation at constant throttle" in 2006 Lexus hybrids like the RX400h model. Toyota engineer Masahiro Ikeda notes surging "between 39-44 miles per hour" and "at 70 mph." The "fix"? Redesigning software for the car's Electronic Control Unit or ECU. "Software planned for first week in August," the internal document says.
In a response on Monday, Toyota acknowledged the internal reports of surging and the software fix. But a spokesman said it wasn't a problem of unintended acceleration; it was a more subtle rocking sensation that caused a seasick feeling and was fixed for customer comfort.
Experts say a glitch in Toyota's "Electronic Throttle Control System" would be much more expensive and problematic than faulty floor mats.
Two sensors measure the position of the accelerator pedal under the driver's foot.
"If it's an electrical problem, which I believe it is, then it really means that we have to question the whole way that the systems are constructed," electrical engineer Antony Anderson said.
So far, Toyota has recalled 7.475 million vehicles for supposed sticky pedals and floor mats. But those vehicles - and millions more on the road - have the electronic throttle control system at issue in the company's own report in 2005.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...html?tag=stack
Toyota's president will testify before Congress Wednesday. He'll likely be asked about an internal company memo that shows the car manufacturer saved $100 million in 2007 by persuading government regulators to narrow their investigation. The regulators agreed to just a limited recall.
Congress already has thousands of pages of Toyota documents to sift through, but CBS News obtained one internal document that could be devastating to Toyota's claims that electronics aren't at issue.
CBS News has learned that as early as 2005 Toyota engineers were redesigning software in response to complaints of cars surging unexpectedly, reports CBS News Correspondent Sharyl Attkisson.
That could be crucial because publicly Toyota has insisted for six years - through eight federal investigations - that electronics are not to blame when its cars surge, sometimes out of control.
Instead, Toyota faults drivers, floor mats and - more recently - sticky gas pedals.
The internal document obtained by CBS News appears to contradict Toyota's claims. Dating back five years, it tracks Toyota's "monthly progress" in addressing "Surging back and forth sensation at constant throttle" in 2006 Lexus hybrids like the RX400h model. Toyota engineer Masahiro Ikeda notes surging "between 39-44 miles per hour" and "at 70 mph." The "fix"? Redesigning software for the car's Electronic Control Unit or ECU. "Software planned for first week in August," the internal document says.
In a response on Monday, Toyota acknowledged the internal reports of surging and the software fix. But a spokesman said it wasn't a problem of unintended acceleration; it was a more subtle rocking sensation that caused a seasick feeling and was fixed for customer comfort.
Experts say a glitch in Toyota's "Electronic Throttle Control System" would be much more expensive and problematic than faulty floor mats.
Two sensors measure the position of the accelerator pedal under the driver's foot.
"If it's an electrical problem, which I believe it is, then it really means that we have to question the whole way that the systems are constructed," electrical engineer Antony Anderson said.
So far, Toyota has recalled 7.475 million vehicles for supposed sticky pedals and floor mats. But those vehicles - and millions more on the road - have the electronic throttle control system at issue in the company's own report in 2005.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...html?tag=stack
