Toyota recalls and related issues: BusinessWeek-Media owes Toyota an apology
11-06-09, 05:45 AM
#61
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
All of a sudden everyone on here is an expert in emergency situations! LOL!!! All this Monday morning quarterbacking is laughable!!!! The bottom line is NOBODY can say with 100% certainty, how you will react in an panic stricken sudden emergency! Of course with this SPECIFIC incident, WE ALL will have a better idea how to react, but that is only because we've been DISCUSSING IT BEFORE IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS TO US!!!
11-06-09, 06:28 AM
#62
Guest
Posts: n/a
This is not a "dumbass" issue, and frankly I'm insulted that that would be purported in light of the situation (four people burning to death in a 120mph car accident). You should choose your words more carefully, and this continual "us v. them" mentality isn't relevant to this thread in the least.
The issue is, a small number of cases that are not explained, which yes, the media is blowing out of proportion, no question about it. But we can't sit here and reasonably forget about it all, try to throw it all under the rug, simply because it irks us. There's an issue to discuss.
The issue is, a small number of cases that are not explained, which yes, the media is blowing out of proportion, no question about it. But we can't sit here and reasonably forget about it all, try to throw it all under the rug, simply because it irks us. There's an issue to discuss.
Leave the moderating to MODERATORS. Clearly the issue cannot be thrown under the rug
the media is talking about, a lot of people are talking about it, WE are talking about it. There are a lot of dumbasses uses this news for the wrong reasons. An example is some lady in an old IS 300 was reporting "oh her car is acting funny and Lexus needs to do something she's read the news". SHE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE FLOOR MATS. The IS 300 has no history of this issue. She has an old beat up IS 300, rarely takes it for service but now wants some sort of free new vehicle b/c "there is an issue on the news".
Yes that really did happen!
That is so true, all of a sudden everyone is an expert in sudden engine surges. That state trooper should have done this, that trooper should have done that. Let me tell you guys that if he could have, I am sure he would have. We are talking a state trooper who went throught special training, not some soccer mom who got their license from Walmart.
Also, why is the state trooper brought up? It wasn't an engine surge. It was PROVEN that the PROBLEM was the WRONG MATS in the WRONG CAR.
We should not be talking about the trooper as it has nothing to do with this thread you have started. Thats a different issue.
I find it funny you are telling people "they are think they are experts in engine surges" when in this very thread you and others are telling us and Toyota "oh just add a failsafe to the ECU" like yall are experts in engineering!
11-06-09, 07:14 AM
#64
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Under the rug, lol, thats a good one 
Dont you mean under the all weather mat
If you saw what is left of that ES350, there is no way to prove that the mat cause the surge, any well trained driver would have known to look at the gas pedal or ****t into neutual.
I dont have to be an expert in engineering to know that a system such as drive by wire should have as many failsafe design as possible. By the way, I never told you this before, but I am a automation control engineer, so I do know a little about failsafe designs, but by no mean an expert.
Dont you mean under the all weather mat I dont have to be an expert in engineering to know that a system such as drive by wire should have as many failsafe design as possible. By the way, I never told you this before, but I am a automation control engineer, so I do know a little about failsafe designs, but by no mean an expert.
11-06-09, 07:37 AM
#65
I hear what you're saying, and I agree with you 100% that the "mainstream" tv news media (abc, nbc, cbs) often tries to "lead" the common citizens into a certain mindset, or they try to "lead" the common citizen into perceiving a situation a certain way. In 95% of those cases, it's in the best interest for the common citizen to do MORE research into the topic or subject at hand, instead of getting a "biased" and one-sided approach and opinion and point of view.
THIS subject is the other 5% where I think the media is doing the citizens a service by bringing it and keeping it to our attention.
I asked before (not specifically to you, but to ANYONE following this thread) and haven't seen a response to my opinion on the matter........
If 90 or 95 or 98% or most or nearly all or almost all of these sudden acceleration accidents were caused by human error, so be it. But what about the other 10% or 5% or even 2% that is NOT human error, but rather mechanical or electrical or design error. Can those instances be just forgotten about? Can those occurances just be overlooked? Can those accidents and/or deaths just be written off as "it just happens?"
Toyota is responsible unless it is absolutely known and proven that all 100% of all these accidents are human error.
If just 1% of all these sudden acceleration accidents are ecu/electrical/design errors, IT IS TOYOTA'S FAULT! How can anyone disagree with that?
If 1% of Apple IPODS blow up in a users ear and make them deaf, do we just say ehhhhh....human error! If 1% of elevators freefalled from the top floor of a building, do we just say ehhh...human error! If 1% pencil sharpeners cut off a students hands and they lose their fingers, do we just say ehhh...human error!
I can not believe how simplistic some of the points of view/posts are on here. It's disappointing actually, but I should expect it I guess.
All of a sudden everyone on here is an expert in emergency situations! LOL!!! All this Monday morning quarterbacking is laughable!!!! The bottom line is NOBODY can say with 100% certainty, how you will react in an panic stricken sudden emergency! Of course with this SPECIFIC incident, WE ALL will have a better idea how to react, but that is only because we've been DISCUSSING IT BEFORE IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS TO US!!!
.
THIS subject is the other 5% where I think the media is doing the citizens a service by bringing it and keeping it to our attention.
I asked before (not specifically to you, but to ANYONE following this thread) and haven't seen a response to my opinion on the matter........
If 90 or 95 or 98% or most or nearly all or almost all of these sudden acceleration accidents were caused by human error, so be it. But what about the other 10% or 5% or even 2% that is NOT human error, but rather mechanical or electrical or design error. Can those instances be just forgotten about? Can those occurances just be overlooked? Can those accidents and/or deaths just be written off as "it just happens?"
Toyota is responsible unless it is absolutely known and proven that all 100% of all these accidents are human error.
If just 1% of all these sudden acceleration accidents are ecu/electrical/design errors, IT IS TOYOTA'S FAULT! How can anyone disagree with that?
If 1% of Apple IPODS blow up in a users ear and make them deaf, do we just say ehhhhh....human error! If 1% of elevators freefalled from the top floor of a building, do we just say ehhh...human error! If 1% pencil sharpeners cut off a students hands and they lose their fingers, do we just say ehhh...human error!
I can not believe how simplistic some of the points of view/posts are on here. It's disappointing actually, but I should expect it I guess.
All of a sudden everyone on here is an expert in emergency situations! LOL!!! All this Monday morning quarterbacking is laughable!!!! The bottom line is NOBODY can say with 100% certainty, how you will react in an panic stricken sudden emergency! Of course with this SPECIFIC incident, WE ALL will have a better idea how to react, but that is only because we've been DISCUSSING IT BEFORE IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS TO US!!!
.
Well, I can't really respond to the placing blame where it belongs comments at this time. I just don't have enough facts from investigations and other data to place "blame" anywhere yet.
What I am saying though, is that there is a line between having the news and media INFORM consumers versus scaring the living daylights out of people.
I do feel that initially, the news was handling the situation just fine- They warned consumers of the floor mat safety advisory and informed people of what to do in a situation where they need to stop the vehicle in an emergency (with the shifting into neutral or pressing the start button for 3 seconds).
However, after this, it turned more into a "Toyota runaway cars and Toyota is misleading people and trying to cover up faulty vehicles." It went more from just informing people on the safety advisory, to "All Toyota vehicles have this underlying problem which could cause you to lose control of your vehicle and die!!! Tonight at 8!"
1SICKLEX mentioned an example of that lady with the IS300 wanting a new vehicle because her IS300 was acting funny. I've seen sooooooooooo many cases of this ever since the news blew this up. People with 2000 Corollas and even Scion vehicles, which aren't involved in the floor mat advisory, contacting corporate to demand a new car because they rear ended somebody back in 2004......
Again, I'm not saying who is at fault in these situations, because we do not know 100% for sure yet. I'm saying the media needs to back off a bit.
11-06-09, 08:18 AM
#66
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Well, I can't really respond to the placing blame where it belongs comments at this time. I just don't have enough facts from investigations and other data to place "blame" anywhere yet.
What I am saying though, is that there is a line between having the news and media INFORM consumers versus scaring the living daylights out of people.
I do feel that initially, the news was handling the situation just fine- They warned consumers of the floor mat safety advisory and informed people of what to do in a situation where they need to stop the vehicle in an emergency (with the shifting into neutral or pressing the start button for 3 seconds).
However, after this, it turned more into a "Toyota runaway cars and Toyota is misleading people and trying to cover up faulty vehicles." It went more from just informing people on the safety advisory, to "All Toyota vehicles have this underlying problem which could cause you to lose control of your vehicle and die!!! Tonight at 8!"
1SICKLEX mentioned an example of that lady with the IS300 wanting a new vehicle because her IS300 was acting funny. I've seen sooooooooooo many cases of this ever since the news blew this up. People with 2000 Corollas and even Scion vehicles, which aren't involved in the floor mat advisory, contacting corporate to demand a new car because they rear ended somebody back in 2004......
Again, I'm not saying who is at fault in these situations, because we do not know 100% for sure yet. I'm saying the media needs to back off a bit.
What I am saying though, is that there is a line between having the news and media INFORM consumers versus scaring the living daylights out of people.
I do feel that initially, the news was handling the situation just fine- They warned consumers of the floor mat safety advisory and informed people of what to do in a situation where they need to stop the vehicle in an emergency (with the shifting into neutral or pressing the start button for 3 seconds).
However, after this, it turned more into a "Toyota runaway cars and Toyota is misleading people and trying to cover up faulty vehicles." It went more from just informing people on the safety advisory, to "All Toyota vehicles have this underlying problem which could cause you to lose control of your vehicle and die!!! Tonight at 8!"
1SICKLEX mentioned an example of that lady with the IS300 wanting a new vehicle because her IS300 was acting funny. I've seen sooooooooooo many cases of this ever since the news blew this up. People with 2000 Corollas and even Scion vehicles, which aren't involved in the floor mat advisory, contacting corporate to demand a new car because they rear ended somebody back in 2004......
Again, I'm not saying who is at fault in these situations, because we do not know 100% for sure yet. I'm saying the media needs to back off a bit.
All the news report did was gave out the facts and information, it’s the readers that over-reacting and caused all the scare.
The news reported said that there were owners who had the surge incident and have actually check to make sure that their gas pedal wasn’t stuck. I don’t think the new report ever said that all Toyota have a problem with engine surge.
Of course every time, something like this happens to a big cooperation, there will be some free loader trying to sue for a free ride. it’s just like the finger in the fast food thing a few years ago. But are we so naive to think that computers never fails, drive by wire is basically a computer control system, all things computer will fail sooner or later. The key is how the accurate the computer senses failure, what kind of backup system does the computer have, are there back up sensors and what is the software programmed to do when it does sense a failure, how can the computer tell the difference between a driver flooring the gas pedal as oppose to a unintentional engine surge. Those are all fail safe codes that needs to be consider when programming a DBW ECU.
11-06-09, 09:06 AM
#67
As one friend suggested, their lives would be saved if they had manual transmission as they would be car-smart enought to pop it in the neutral (even if it is much easier to flick it into N in AT cars).
11-06-09, 09:10 AM
#68
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
yes... unfortunatly, special vehicle training apperantly does not include this.
As one friend suggested, their lives would be saved if they had manual transmission as they would be car-smart enought to pop it in the neutral (even if it is much easier to flick it into N in AT cars).
As one friend suggested, their lives would be saved if they had manual transmission as they would be car-smart enought to pop it in the neutral (even if it is much easier to flick it into N in AT cars).
11-06-09, 09:11 AM
#69
I dont have to be an expert in engineering to know that a system such as drive by wire should have as many failsafe design as possible. By the way, I never told you this before, but I am a automation control engineer, so I do know a little about failsafe designs, but by no mean an expert.
Case in point, Prius never had an issue with many DBW systems inside, while MB decided to remove most of them from their vehicles.
11-06-09, 09:29 AM
#70
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I believe the Bosch DBW TPS (throttle position sensor) failed on some early 00s Mercedes-Benz, but there were never any run away vehicles. Are you referring to their disastrous adventure into DBW Braking?
11-06-09, 09:29 AM
#71
Pole Position
And think about this:
If all these DBW computers are failing, do they all fail to full throttle? If not, why hasn't there been any complaints about computers failing and drivers losing throttle? IMO, the answer is simple. "Because Lexus/Toyota simply does not have DBW computer problems"
11-06-09, 09:33 AM
#72
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Also, why is the state trooper brought up? It wasn't an engine surge. It was PROVEN that the PROBLEM was the WRONG MATS in the WRONG CAR.
I find it funny you are telling people "they are think they are experts in engine surges" when in this very thread you and others are telling us and Toyota "oh just add a failsafe to the ECU" like yall are experts in engineering!
11-06-09, 09:39 AM
#73
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
And think about this:
If all these DBW computers are failing, do they all fail to full throttle? If not, why hasn't there been any complaints about computers failing and drivers losing throttle? IMO, the answer is simple. "Because Lexus/Toyota simply does not have DBW computer problems"
If all these DBW computers are failing, do they all fail to full throttle? If not, why hasn't there been any complaints about computers failing and drivers losing throttle? IMO, the answer is simple. "Because Lexus/Toyota simply does not have DBW computer problems"
Drive by wire braking made me nervous just like drive by wire throttle. At least there is an huge advantage to drive by wire throttle which is the stability system. What is the big advantage for drive by wire braking?
11-06-09, 12:21 PM
#74
FYI:
Toyota Motor Sales has posted a statement concerning claims of unintended acceleration in certain Toyota and Lexus vehicles. The statement is posted in the Point of View section on the Toyota USA Newsroom:
Here is the text of Toyota’s statement:
Toyota Motor Sales has posted a statement concerning claims of unintended acceleration in certain Toyota and Lexus vehicles. The statement is posted in the Point of View section on the Toyota USA Newsroom:
Here is the text of Toyota’s statement:
Unintended Acceleration: Toyota Addresses The Issues
Recently, there has been some controversy regarding a safety recall that Toyota is undertaking. We want to take this opportunity to set the record straight with a chronology of the events of the past week.
On Friday, October 30, we began sending letters to Toyota and Lexus owners (link to owner letter) about a defect related to motor vehicle safety that exists on certain models. The defect is the potential for an unsecured or incompatible driver’s floor mat to interfere with the accelerator pedal and cause it to get stuck in the wide open position. As an interim precaution, we asked owners to take out any removable driver’s floor mat and not replace it with any other floor mat until a vehicle-based remedy can be developed and implemented on their vehicle. When such a remedy is determined, owners will be notified.
In addition, the letter contains instructions for owners on what to do should they experience accelerator pedal interference.
On Monday, November 2, Toyota distributed a press release announcing the customer letter campaign and cited a recent decision by NHTSA related to unintended acceleration on a Lexus vehicle.
On Tuesday and Wednesday, a series of media reports circulated, stating that there was growing suspicion by some Toyota and Lexus owners, that a glitch of some kind in the electronic engine management system was the cause of reports of unintended acceleration. There were also reports in the media that Toyota’s press release implied that the company believed the only issue was the removal of floor mats and that its future recall would not involve any other remedies.
First, the question of unintended acceleration involving Toyota and Lexus vehicles has been one of the most thoroughly and repeatedly investigated issues by Toyota, as well as by the engineering experts at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). Six times in the past six years NHTSA has undertaken an exhaustive review of allegations of unintended acceleration on Toyota and Lexus vehicles and six times the agency closed the investigation without finding any electronic engine control system malfunction to be the cause of unintended acceleration.
Just last week NHTSA denied a request for an additional investigation of unwanted and unintended acceleration of model year 2007 Lexus ES350 vehicles and model years 2002-2003 Lexus ES300. After conducting an extensive technical review of the issue, including interviews with consumers who had complained of unwanted acceleration, NHTSA concluded that “…the only defect trend related to vehicle speed control in the subject vehicles involved the potential for accelerator pedals to become trapped near the floor by out-of-position or inappropriate floor mat installations (link to ODI report).”
Finally, On Wednesday of this week, NHTSA issued a statement that read in part that “ A press release put out by Toyota earlier this week about their recall of 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles inaccurately stated NHTSA had reached a conclusion that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver’s floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured. NHTSA has told Toyota and consumers that removing the recalled floor mats is the most immediate way to address the safety risk and avoid the possibility of the accelerator becoming stuck. But it is simply an interim measure.”
It was never Toyota’s intention to mislead or provide inaccurate information and we regret any confusion our press release may have caused with the media and with the public. Toyota agrees with NHTSA’s position that the removal of the floor mats is an interim measure and that further vehicle-based action is required. We are in the process of developing appropriate vehicle-based remedies that will help prevent accelerator pedal entrapment. In the meantime we will continue to keep you updated on the floor mat situation as more information becomes available.
Recently, there has been some controversy regarding a safety recall that Toyota is undertaking. We want to take this opportunity to set the record straight with a chronology of the events of the past week.
On Friday, October 30, we began sending letters to Toyota and Lexus owners (link to owner letter) about a defect related to motor vehicle safety that exists on certain models. The defect is the potential for an unsecured or incompatible driver’s floor mat to interfere with the accelerator pedal and cause it to get stuck in the wide open position. As an interim precaution, we asked owners to take out any removable driver’s floor mat and not replace it with any other floor mat until a vehicle-based remedy can be developed and implemented on their vehicle. When such a remedy is determined, owners will be notified.
In addition, the letter contains instructions for owners on what to do should they experience accelerator pedal interference.
On Monday, November 2, Toyota distributed a press release announcing the customer letter campaign and cited a recent decision by NHTSA related to unintended acceleration on a Lexus vehicle.
On Tuesday and Wednesday, a series of media reports circulated, stating that there was growing suspicion by some Toyota and Lexus owners, that a glitch of some kind in the electronic engine management system was the cause of reports of unintended acceleration. There were also reports in the media that Toyota’s press release implied that the company believed the only issue was the removal of floor mats and that its future recall would not involve any other remedies.
First, the question of unintended acceleration involving Toyota and Lexus vehicles has been one of the most thoroughly and repeatedly investigated issues by Toyota, as well as by the engineering experts at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). Six times in the past six years NHTSA has undertaken an exhaustive review of allegations of unintended acceleration on Toyota and Lexus vehicles and six times the agency closed the investigation without finding any electronic engine control system malfunction to be the cause of unintended acceleration.
Just last week NHTSA denied a request for an additional investigation of unwanted and unintended acceleration of model year 2007 Lexus ES350 vehicles and model years 2002-2003 Lexus ES300. After conducting an extensive technical review of the issue, including interviews with consumers who had complained of unwanted acceleration, NHTSA concluded that “…the only defect trend related to vehicle speed control in the subject vehicles involved the potential for accelerator pedals to become trapped near the floor by out-of-position or inappropriate floor mat installations (link to ODI report).”
Finally, On Wednesday of this week, NHTSA issued a statement that read in part that “ A press release put out by Toyota earlier this week about their recall of 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles inaccurately stated NHTSA had reached a conclusion that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver’s floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured. NHTSA has told Toyota and consumers that removing the recalled floor mats is the most immediate way to address the safety risk and avoid the possibility of the accelerator becoming stuck. But it is simply an interim measure.”
It was never Toyota’s intention to mislead or provide inaccurate information and we regret any confusion our press release may have caused with the media and with the public. Toyota agrees with NHTSA’s position that the removal of the floor mats is an interim measure and that further vehicle-based action is required. We are in the process of developing appropriate vehicle-based remedies that will help prevent accelerator pedal entrapment. In the meantime we will continue to keep you updated on the floor mat situation as more information becomes available.
11-06-09, 12:39 PM
#75
Guest
Posts: n/a
Under the rug, lol, thats a good one Dont you mean under the all weather mat
If you saw what is left of that ES350, there is no way to prove that the mat cause the surge, any well trained driver would have known to look at the gas pedal or ****t into neutual.
I dont have to be an expert in engineering to know that a system such as drive by wire should have as many failsafe design as possible. By the way, I never told you this before, but I am a automation control engineer, so I do know a little about failsafe designs, but by no mean an expert.
Dont you mean under the all weather mat If you saw what is left of that ES350, there is no way to prove that the mat cause the surge, any well trained driver would have known to look at the gas pedal or ****t into neutual.
I dont have to be an expert in engineering to know that a system such as drive by wire should have as many failsafe design as possible. By the way, I never told you this before, but I am a automation control engineer, so I do know a little about failsafe designs, but by no mean an expert.
2. You cannot use the argument and logic of accusing people of "trying to be surge engineers" when you are trying to be an "ECU engineer".
3. You have close to 20 of the 64 posts in here when
a-the issue is floor mats
b-we had a huge thread about this issue
c-Toyota was not found at fault
d-the wrong mats were in the ES