Toyota recalls and related issues: BusinessWeek-Media owes Toyota an apology
#886
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
there is not much Toyota can do, except investigate quickly... Even if they determine it is an driver error, what can they do? "TOYOTA BLAMES DRIVERS" does not sound good, does it.
Thing is, Toyota had 20 reports per month, at worst times... at thats with 60-70 millions cars on the road. What are the chances of 10 reports days after the fix, out of 1 million cars fixed?
Plus La Hood already said 2 days ago that all accidents that NTHSA checked, only 1 accident might have been due to the pedals, rest were due to mats.
But again, nothing they can do really except do the work.
Thing is, Toyota had 20 reports per month, at worst times... at thats with 60-70 millions cars on the road. What are the chances of 10 reports days after the fix, out of 1 million cars fixed?
Plus La Hood already said 2 days ago that all accidents that NTHSA checked, only 1 accident might have been due to the pedals, rest were due to mats.
But again, nothing they can do really except do the work.
20 reports now and people will want out of their cars for whatever reason and the report numbers will rise.
The last two Toyota presidents before Toyoda really did the damage.Toyota became very GM-like.
The negative press tidbits will be lead news stories.This mess will last for a long time.
I passed a couple of dealerships yesterday and unlike the times I passed before,the showrooms were dead.
My dealer is the #1 dealer in Jersey and maybe the northeast.They sell 450 new Toyotas a month.I wonder what the number is now.
#887
Pole Position
This is just business. It's how the business world runs. Every company in the free enterprise world does this. It's called "how can we build a better, cheaper widget?"
#888
An editorial from Toyota Monitor
Toyota Pulls a 'General Motors'...Again
As the February 2010 have rolled out, a number of sources noted that Toyota is responding to its plummet in the figures with incentives and 0% financing. While this seems like a sure-fire way to boost their sales in the short term, it also makes Toyota sound more and more like the General Motors of the 1970s and 80s.
Toyota Pulls a 'General Motors'...Again
As the February 2010 have rolled out, a number of sources noted that Toyota is responding to its plummet in the figures with incentives and 0% financing. While this seems like a sure-fire way to boost their sales in the short term, it also makes Toyota sound more and more like the General Motors of the 1970s and 80s.
So how exactly is Ford successful when they spend $3.4k per car in order to sell it, while Toyota, with all the recall business, spent $1.8k...
#889
Pole Position
iTrader: (5)
if congress really wanted to solve problems they would listen to independent engineers, mechanics, and scientists. Not safety advocates who have an economic incentive for Toyota to get sued because of trial lawyers.
youd think with all the vehicles sold, there would be a lot more SUA if the electronics was truly a widespread problem
youd think with all the vehicles sold, there would be a lot more SUA if the electronics was truly a widespread problem
This whole thing is a complete circus act. All of a sudden, hundreds of people are "experiencing" unintended acceleration. This whole thing is a joke, and it's funny how the general population are just getting herded like cattle.
#891
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
now the govt is considering mandating a brake override on all vehicles. Yet I bet people will still complain about SUA, despite it will be even less likely for it to happen. Save me nanny electronics and govt! God forbid people learn what the difference is b/t the brake and throttles are
#892
Pole Position
now the govt is considering mandating a brake override on all vehicles. Yet I bet people will still complain about SUA, despite it will be even less likely for it to happen. Save me nanny electronics and govt! God forbid people learn what the difference is b/t the brake and throttles are
#893
executive matchup
Wastegate - Runaway Toyota? Step on the brakes!
Posted on March 2nd 2010 by Michael La Fave
I think it's pretty clear that this whole Toyota situation has turned into a US gov't witch hunt. If they'd pursued crooked bankers with one one-thousandth the zeal they've chased down Toyota we'd have avoided a few unpleasant years. Toyota must have known this was coming though. I mean you don't twig your nose at America for long before they kinda get pissed off and park a battle ship off your coastline and "renegotiate" your trade agreement. Don't get me wrong, I'd do the same thing if I had a fleet of mechanized floating Armageddon. But I don't, so I digress.
What I do have is enough car knowledge to know that there isn't a single modern production car whose brakes aren't stronger than it's engine. Don't believe me? Try them out. Drive down a deserted industrial complex road at the speed limit and while maintaining constant pressure on the accelerator hit the brakes with your left foot. You will come to a stop. If you like try it with wide open throttle. Same result.
This should be pretty obvious to anyone who as ever read anything about cars and has even the remotest understanding of physics. Take the example of the 1001-hp Bugatti Veyron. I'm using this for two reason; 1) I know the numbers of the top of my head and 2) It has 1000-hp so it's a great example relative to 10-hp Toyota Corollas (yeah I mean 10-hp...being facetious).
If memory serves it takes about 45 seconds for the 1001-hp to accelerate the Veyron from a stop to 400 km/h. It takes 10 seconds for it to stop from that speed. So you tell me...what's more powerful? The engine or the brakes?
Still don't believe me? On the long-lead in 2005 the French decided they didn't like the regular launch control and tried brake-torquing the Bug. Result? Shattered gearbox. Between the brakes and the engine something had to give and it wasn't going to be the brakes. Any high-school drag racer knows this.
The allegation of a software fault preventing the brakes from working? I really doubt it. Your braking system is not brake-by-wire so even if your accelerator goes all poltergeist on you the brakes still have a phsyical connection to the pedal and as long as there's brake fluid in the lines they're gonna work.
The one area where I could see a problem is if the ABS computer went on the fritz as the ABS system releases brake pressure when a wheel locks up under braking so it's conceivable that it could prevent the brakes from functioning properly as well. No one has suggested this is the case, however, so it's a lot more likely this is the old pedal misapplication scenario. You press on the gas instead of the brakes by mistake and when the car doesn't slow what do you do? Probably overreact and press on the gas harder and exacerbate the situation.
I'm sure a few cases were in fact faulty accelerator pedals that became stuck and Toyota did the right thing and implemented a fix. The rest of the cases are likely pedal misapplication. So long story short. If your accelerator does get stuck, doesn't respond or even starts dancing around like Beetlejuise, just hit the brakes. If you're not stopping then you're probably on the gas.
[UPDATE]
A few commenters make the point that the car can be shifted to neutral. I don't recommend this simply because if it's an emergency situation hitting the brakes will more quickly address the problem. Though all recent automatic shifters can simply be "popped" into neutral from drive there are a number of cars on the market with "gated" shifters and my concern is that some drivers might find that confusing. Therefore the best course of action is to brake, steer the car to a safe place and when you feel you are in control, and can spare the concentration, place the car in neutral and then turn off the engine. BTW I don't own a Toyota and, frankly, I don't even really like them very much but I just can't stand B.S. about this in the mainstream media.
link: http://autos.sympatico.ca/waste-gate...-on-the-brakes
Posted on March 2nd 2010 by Michael La Fave
I think it's pretty clear that this whole Toyota situation has turned into a US gov't witch hunt. If they'd pursued crooked bankers with one one-thousandth the zeal they've chased down Toyota we'd have avoided a few unpleasant years. Toyota must have known this was coming though. I mean you don't twig your nose at America for long before they kinda get pissed off and park a battle ship off your coastline and "renegotiate" your trade agreement. Don't get me wrong, I'd do the same thing if I had a fleet of mechanized floating Armageddon. But I don't, so I digress.
What I do have is enough car knowledge to know that there isn't a single modern production car whose brakes aren't stronger than it's engine. Don't believe me? Try them out. Drive down a deserted industrial complex road at the speed limit and while maintaining constant pressure on the accelerator hit the brakes with your left foot. You will come to a stop. If you like try it with wide open throttle. Same result.
This should be pretty obvious to anyone who as ever read anything about cars and has even the remotest understanding of physics. Take the example of the 1001-hp Bugatti Veyron. I'm using this for two reason; 1) I know the numbers of the top of my head and 2) It has 1000-hp so it's a great example relative to 10-hp Toyota Corollas (yeah I mean 10-hp...being facetious).
If memory serves it takes about 45 seconds for the 1001-hp to accelerate the Veyron from a stop to 400 km/h. It takes 10 seconds for it to stop from that speed. So you tell me...what's more powerful? The engine or the brakes?
Still don't believe me? On the long-lead in 2005 the French decided they didn't like the regular launch control and tried brake-torquing the Bug. Result? Shattered gearbox. Between the brakes and the engine something had to give and it wasn't going to be the brakes. Any high-school drag racer knows this.
The allegation of a software fault preventing the brakes from working? I really doubt it. Your braking system is not brake-by-wire so even if your accelerator goes all poltergeist on you the brakes still have a phsyical connection to the pedal and as long as there's brake fluid in the lines they're gonna work.
The one area where I could see a problem is if the ABS computer went on the fritz as the ABS system releases brake pressure when a wheel locks up under braking so it's conceivable that it could prevent the brakes from functioning properly as well. No one has suggested this is the case, however, so it's a lot more likely this is the old pedal misapplication scenario. You press on the gas instead of the brakes by mistake and when the car doesn't slow what do you do? Probably overreact and press on the gas harder and exacerbate the situation.
I'm sure a few cases were in fact faulty accelerator pedals that became stuck and Toyota did the right thing and implemented a fix. The rest of the cases are likely pedal misapplication. So long story short. If your accelerator does get stuck, doesn't respond or even starts dancing around like Beetlejuise, just hit the brakes. If you're not stopping then you're probably on the gas.
[UPDATE]
A few commenters make the point that the car can be shifted to neutral. I don't recommend this simply because if it's an emergency situation hitting the brakes will more quickly address the problem. Though all recent automatic shifters can simply be "popped" into neutral from drive there are a number of cars on the market with "gated" shifters and my concern is that some drivers might find that confusing. Therefore the best course of action is to brake, steer the car to a safe place and when you feel you are in control, and can spare the concentration, place the car in neutral and then turn off the engine. BTW I don't own a Toyota and, frankly, I don't even really like them very much but I just can't stand B.S. about this in the mainstream media.
link: http://autos.sympatico.ca/waste-gate...-on-the-brakes
#895
Lexus Champion
Probably not unheard of these days. But - I was talking to my sister and her friend/neighbor is the office manager of a Nissan dealership. An older couple with a 2010 Camry with 5k miles just bought a new Altima from them.
They were afraid to drive the car so the dealership sent someone to their house to pick them up as well as their car/trade-in, came back and they bought the Altima. Too bad really.
I bet they took a bath on the trade-in as well as the new car purchase.
They were afraid to drive the car so the dealership sent someone to their house to pick them up as well as their car/trade-in, came back and they bought the Altima. Too bad really.
I bet they took a bath on the trade-in as well as the new car purchase.
#896
I think this whole thing is absurd. I don't own or Toyota, Lexus, or Scion, but I am not deterred at all by this from buying one. This situation has made me realize how incompetent people really are. That N on your gear selector isn't there to help you with your alphabet.
#897
-0----0-
iTrader: (4)
Article on Edmunds' Insideline. About that 81 year old mentioned above and another woman.
http://www.insideline.com/toyota/toy...again-mom.html
My favorite quote from the article.
If you put your foot on the "brake" and the car goes forward, you aren't on the right friggin pedal.
http://www.insideline.com/toyota/toy...again-mom.html
My favorite quote from the article.
I put my foot on the brake and I felt the car push forward," she wrote in her complaint to NHTSA. "I put my other foot on the brake as well.
#898
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
our WORTHLESS driving 'test' and lack of retesting when people hit social security age is bringing the inevitable results.
of course it's not the driver's faults, let's sue car makers.
of course it's not the driver's faults, let's sue car makers.
#899
TORRANCE, Calif., March 4, 2010 – Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., has received verifiable information from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) about some vehicles whose owners have reported unintended acceleration after receiving the accelerator pedal recall remedies. As soon as Toyota received the vehicle owner information from NHTSA, it moved quickly to evaluate the vehicles and interview the owners.
Although most of these reports have yet to be verified, Toyota has been and remains committed to investigating all reported incidents of sudden acceleration in its vehicles quickly. Toyota wants to hear directly from its customers about any problems they are experiencing with their vehicles.
The results of the evaluations have been submitted to NHTSA for review. Though these reports involve a tiny fraction of the more than one million vehicles dealers have repaired to date, Toyota takes them extremely seriously.
As NHTSA is now reviewing the results of our evaluations, it is inappropriate for Toyota to provide specific information about the company’s conclusions. However, the evaluations have found no evidence of a failure of the vehicle electronic throttle control system, the recent recall remedies or the brake override feature.
It is important to note that many complaints submitted to NHTSA either are unverifiable or lack the vehicle owner information required to facilitate follow-up. Nonetheless, Toyota is quickly investigating verifiable complaints of unintended acceleration and doing everything it can to ensure that our customers are confident in their vehicles and the remedies.
Although most of these reports have yet to be verified, Toyota has been and remains committed to investigating all reported incidents of sudden acceleration in its vehicles quickly. Toyota wants to hear directly from its customers about any problems they are experiencing with their vehicles.
The results of the evaluations have been submitted to NHTSA for review. Though these reports involve a tiny fraction of the more than one million vehicles dealers have repaired to date, Toyota takes them extremely seriously.
As NHTSA is now reviewing the results of our evaluations, it is inappropriate for Toyota to provide specific information about the company’s conclusions. However, the evaluations have found no evidence of a failure of the vehicle electronic throttle control system, the recent recall remedies or the brake override feature.
It is important to note that many complaints submitted to NHTSA either are unverifiable or lack the vehicle owner information required to facilitate follow-up. Nonetheless, Toyota is quickly investigating verifiable complaints of unintended acceleration and doing everything it can to ensure that our customers are confident in their vehicles and the remedies.
....
Toyota is confident that the rigorously tested accelerator pedal remedies and the brake override feature are effective and firmly believes that, with these remedies, its vehicles are among the safest on the road today.
Toyota is confident that the rigorously tested accelerator pedal remedies and the brake override feature are effective and firmly believes that, with these remedies, its vehicles are among the safest on the road today.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/t...on-154747.aspx
Toyota responded quickly, very quickly this time around ;-). They also included into explanation how brake over-ride works...
#900
Fight Breaks Out Over Relevance of Former In-House Lawyer's Documents in Toyota Probe
public squabble has broken out between the chairman and the ranking Republican member of the Congressional panel investigating safety problems in Toyota vehicles over the contents of internal documents produced by a former Toyota attorney.
U.S. Rep. Edolphus Towns, D-N.Y., chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, sent a letter on Feb. 26 to Yoshimi Inaba, president and chief executive officer of Toyota Motor North America Inc., saying that the documents provided "evidence that Toyota deliberately withheld relevant electronic records that it was legally required to produce" in lawsuits.
The documents "shed some light on Toyota's handling of the sudden unintended acceleration problem" and "indicate a systematic disregard for the law," Towns wrote.
U.S. Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., responded with a letter of his own on March 2. He wrote that Towns' conclusions were based on "conjecture and altered quotations" and that Towns' letter "frequently misquotes and mischaracterizes" the documents.
The dispute involved claims by Dimitrios Biller, a former in-house lawyer at Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc., who asserted in a wrongful termination lawsuit that his superiors regularly ordered him to hide and destroy evidence in rollover cases.
...........
By contrast, Issa wrote that his staff spent 60 hours reviewing the Biller documents and found information that refuted some of Towns' conclusions.
In particular, Issa said, the documents indicate that Toyota made considerable efforts to improve its production of electronic documents while Biller was there and that one of the lawsuits that Towns suggested involved sudden unintended acceleration actually involved problems with the transmission and lack of acceleration in the vehicle.
Issa cited Dallas plaintiffs attorney Todd Tracy, who reopened 17 personal injury cases based on Biller's claims but voluntarily dismissed them after reviewing the documents. Tracy said that they failed to reveal any "concealment, destruction, or pattern of discovery abuse," Issa wrote.
In a telephone interview on Thursday, Tracy told The National Law Journal that Issa's characterization was correct. One box contained 15 copies of the same deposition, Tracy said. Another contained research about bringing a wrongful termination suit. Tracey found 50 copies of Biller's resume and e-mails that Biller wrote to colleagues, but no replies.
"These were supposed to be the hottest documents in the history of jurisprudence, the way they were portrayed," Tracy said. "The material was published material. Give me a break."
In many years of litigating against Toyota, Tracy said, he never had any trouble securing discovery material. "I never had any trouble getting it at all," Tracy said.
man this gets worse and worse...