Toyota recalls and related issues: BusinessWeek-Media owes Toyota an apology
03-05-10, 10:18 AM
#916
An article in my local paper today ripping Toyota for being so secretive on the black box contents.
I'm curious about the contents of the box.
http://www.northjersey.com/news/0304....html?page=all
I'm curious about the contents of the box.
http://www.northjersey.com/news/0304....html?page=all
03-05-10, 10:26 AM
#917
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Damn the box! Look below!! The media cars b/c no one gives a rats *** about a Volvo, VW or even Jaguar. The cars could be throwing themselves into the ocean with drivers in it, the media wont' care b/c the public does not care.
However Toyota is a completely different story. It makes news. This chart needs shown in front of people and not hidden.
However Toyota is a completely different story. It makes news. This chart needs shown in front of people and not hidden.
Good to hear, also...the smoking gun IMO is this story by NPR yesterday:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...24276771&ps=rs
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=124235858
It's already on Wikipedia as a chart, and look at this:
Rate of unintended acceleration complaints per 100,000 units sold, by manufacturer:
.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...24276771&ps=rs
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=124235858
It's already on Wikipedia as a chart, and look at this:
Rate of unintended acceleration complaints per 100,000 units sold, by manufacturer:
.
03-05-10, 10:27 AM
#918
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They do need to open up the info on the black boxes. It would make things a lot easier for them. Being secretive right now isn't the right approach.
03-05-10, 10:32 AM
#920
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The black boxes will reveal nothing. As far as I am concerned Toyota nor anyone can accurately point at the problem. It hasn't been recreated by any independent authority or by Toyota.
Instead PEOPLE are the ones complaining and now they are complaining more.
This has been completely overblown out of proportion and it all started b/c a cop who didn't know how to go in neutral had a loaner with the wrong floor mats in the wrong car.
Next thing we know it jumped to unintended acceleration.
Cars so are _#)$# complicated the average journalist and buyer and American forgets that. They are more and more complicated.
We also live in a society where people completely suck *** at driving and rather drink a latte and do their nails and talk on the phone then drive.
Instead PEOPLE are the ones complaining and now they are complaining more.
This has been completely overblown out of proportion and it all started b/c a cop who didn't know how to go in neutral had a loaner with the wrong floor mats in the wrong car.
Next thing we know it jumped to unintended acceleration.
Cars so are _#)$# complicated the average journalist and buyer and American forgets that. They are more and more complicated.
We also live in a society where people completely suck *** at driving and rather drink a latte and do their nails and talk on the phone then drive.
03-05-10, 10:40 AM
#921
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Panel head under fire over Toyota documents
Calif. lawmaker accuses committee leader of 'misrepresentations' over subpoenaed material
Christine Tierney / The Detroit News
Allegations that Toyota Motor Corp. tried to hide vehicle defects aren't new: Former Toyota lawyer Dimitrios Biller has claimed for months that he had documents to prove it -- but was prevented by a court from revealing them.
Last week, the public got its first glimpse of Biller's documents, which were subpoenaed by the U.S. House Oversight and Government Reform Committee and briefly posted on its Web site by Chairman Ed Towns, D-N.Y.
They seemed deeply damaging to Toyota at first glance. But they were quickly taken off the site, and Towns is now under fire from members of his committee for his handling of the affair.
In addition to posting the documents, Towns wrote to a senior Toyota official on Feb. 26 demanding an explanation for the documents, which, he said, "indicate Toyota deliberately withheld records" that it was required to share with plaintiffs in civil suits.
Towns' letter, which was made public, contained excerpts from the documents to back up his assertions.
This week, Rep. Darrell Issa of California, the ranking Republican on the House committee, said his staff discovered "factual misrepresentations" in Towns' letter to Yoshimi Inaba, president of Toyota Motor North America.
For instance, Towns cites a memo Biller wrote on Dec. 6, 2006, suggesting that Toyota preferred to settle cases rather than disclose information it kept in so-called "Books of Knowledge."
Towns quotes Biller as saying: "TMS [Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc.] conclude that it would be better to pay a premium to settle this case and avoid producing the 'Books of Knowledge.' "
But Issa's staff said Towns left out a crucial part of the sentence. The full sentence is: "TMS [Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc.] conclude that it would be better to pay a premium to settle this case and avoid producing the 'Books of Knowledge' before Toyota and its counsel had an opportunity to inspect those materials."
Issa's staff also found that the phrase "sudden unintended acceleration" had been injected into a passage that referred to a suit alleging transmission problems.
In addition, Issa noted that a Texas plaintiff lawyer, E. Todd Tracy, reviewed the Biller documents in connection to 17 cases that he had reopened on the basis of Biller's allegations.
"After reviewing the documents, in December 2009, he concluded that: 'I did not see any type of concealment, destruction, or pattern of discovery abuse' and that 'I believe Biller, in his own mind, probably thinks there's something there. But the documents just don't support it,' " Issa quoted Tracy as saying.
A House committee spokeswoman said Issa's complaints were beside the point. "Mr. Issa's comments do not address the central issue -- has Toyota been illegally withholding documents for years," said Jenny Rosenberg.
Biller, who worked for Toyota from 2003 until 2007, is suing Toyota, claiming wrongful termination and emotional distress. He also alleges racketeering at the Japanese automaker.
"Biller continues to make inaccurate and misleading allegations about Toyota's conduct that we strongly dispute and will continue to fight against vigorously," said Toyota spokeswoman Martha Voss.
Toyota sued Biller in 2008 to stop him from using confidential material. It argued successfully that Biller violated a $3.7 million settlement by retaining his files.
This month, an arbitrator in the lawsuit blocked Biller from disclosing internal company documents, but the House Oversight Committee's subpoena superseded the other rulings.
The committee dispute also reflects partisan strains.
"I am concerned that sending this letter without consultation with the minority and its misleading content sheds a negative light on what has otherwise been a successful bipartisan effort," Issa wrote.
Calif. lawmaker accuses committee leader of 'misrepresentations' over subpoenaed material
Christine Tierney / The Detroit News
Allegations that Toyota Motor Corp. tried to hide vehicle defects aren't new: Former Toyota lawyer Dimitrios Biller has claimed for months that he had documents to prove it -- but was prevented by a court from revealing them.
Last week, the public got its first glimpse of Biller's documents, which were subpoenaed by the U.S. House Oversight and Government Reform Committee and briefly posted on its Web site by Chairman Ed Towns, D-N.Y.
They seemed deeply damaging to Toyota at first glance. But they were quickly taken off the site, and Towns is now under fire from members of his committee for his handling of the affair.
In addition to posting the documents, Towns wrote to a senior Toyota official on Feb. 26 demanding an explanation for the documents, which, he said, "indicate Toyota deliberately withheld records" that it was required to share with plaintiffs in civil suits.
Towns' letter, which was made public, contained excerpts from the documents to back up his assertions.
This week, Rep. Darrell Issa of California, the ranking Republican on the House committee, said his staff discovered "factual misrepresentations" in Towns' letter to Yoshimi Inaba, president of Toyota Motor North America.
For instance, Towns cites a memo Biller wrote on Dec. 6, 2006, suggesting that Toyota preferred to settle cases rather than disclose information it kept in so-called "Books of Knowledge."
Towns quotes Biller as saying: "TMS [Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc.] conclude that it would be better to pay a premium to settle this case and avoid producing the 'Books of Knowledge.' "
But Issa's staff said Towns left out a crucial part of the sentence. The full sentence is: "TMS [Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc.] conclude that it would be better to pay a premium to settle this case and avoid producing the 'Books of Knowledge' before Toyota and its counsel had an opportunity to inspect those materials."
Issa's staff also found that the phrase "sudden unintended acceleration" had been injected into a passage that referred to a suit alleging transmission problems.
In addition, Issa noted that a Texas plaintiff lawyer, E. Todd Tracy, reviewed the Biller documents in connection to 17 cases that he had reopened on the basis of Biller's allegations.
"After reviewing the documents, in December 2009, he concluded that: 'I did not see any type of concealment, destruction, or pattern of discovery abuse' and that 'I believe Biller, in his own mind, probably thinks there's something there. But the documents just don't support it,' " Issa quoted Tracy as saying.
A House committee spokeswoman said Issa's complaints were beside the point. "Mr. Issa's comments do not address the central issue -- has Toyota been illegally withholding documents for years," said Jenny Rosenberg.
Biller, who worked for Toyota from 2003 until 2007, is suing Toyota, claiming wrongful termination and emotional distress. He also alleges racketeering at the Japanese automaker.
"Biller continues to make inaccurate and misleading allegations about Toyota's conduct that we strongly dispute and will continue to fight against vigorously," said Toyota spokeswoman Martha Voss.
Toyota sued Biller in 2008 to stop him from using confidential material. It argued successfully that Biller violated a $3.7 million settlement by retaining his files.
This month, an arbitrator in the lawsuit blocked Biller from disclosing internal company documents, but the House Oversight Committee's subpoena superseded the other rulings.
The committee dispute also reflects partisan strains.
"I am concerned that sending this letter without consultation with the minority and its misleading content sheds a negative light on what has otherwise been a successful bipartisan effort," Issa wrote.
03-05-10, 10:43 AM
#922
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The black boxes will reveal nothing. As far as I am concerned Toyota nor anyone can accurately point at the problem. It hasn't been recreated by any independent authority or by Toyota.
Instead PEOPLE are the ones complaining and now they are complaining more.
This has been completely overblown out of proportion and it all started b/c a cop who didn't know how to go in neutral had a loaner with the wrong floor mats in the wrong car.
Next thing we know it jumped to unintended acceleration.
Cars so are _#)$# complicated the average journalist and buyer and American forgets that. They are more and more complicated.
We also live in a society where people completely suck *** at driving and rather drink a latte and do their nails and talk on the phone then drive.
Instead PEOPLE are the ones complaining and now they are complaining more.
This has been completely overblown out of proportion and it all started b/c a cop who didn't know how to go in neutral had a loaner with the wrong floor mats in the wrong car.
Next thing we know it jumped to unintended acceleration.
Cars so are _#)$# complicated the average journalist and buyer and American forgets that. They are more and more complicated.
We also live in a society where people completely suck *** at driving and rather drink a latte and do their nails and talk on the phone then drive.
Like I said, all of the thousands of complaints from all makes over decades (yup, before electronic throttles) seems evident that these incidences are driver error.
03-05-10, 10:56 AM
#923
Agreed. Except in Toyota's current situation, everything should be put out in the open that people think could help find answers. Making any recordings from the black box unavailable to anyone but themselves is a big PR blunder.
Like I said, all of the thousands of complaints from all makes over decades (yup, before electronic throttles) seems evident that these incidences are driver error.
Like I said, all of the thousands of complaints from all makes over decades (yup, before electronic throttles) seems evident that these incidences are driver error.
Reveal the box contents.
Hiding the info from the black box just makes Toyota look bad and that's the last thing they need right now.
One,two...five seconds,I don't care.Make the data public.
03-05-10, 11:49 AM
#924
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The only thing that can save toyota is the media worry about something else.....
-Lochness Monster found
-Britt Spears in playgirl
-Tiger Woods gets hit by CTS-V by wife
-natural disaster here
-Willie Nelson the new drug kingpin of Columbia
-add yours here
-Lochness Monster found
-Britt Spears in playgirl
-Tiger Woods gets hit by CTS-V by wife
-natural disaster here
-Willie Nelson the new drug kingpin of Columbia
-add yours here
03-05-10, 12:52 PM
#925
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03-05-10, 02:42 PM
#927
i dont want to really read through 60+ pages of posts but are they doing anything about the 2is? i brought mine into the dealership the other day and all they did was check if my all weather mat was in place by the 2 hooks. service guy said i was ok and they wern't going to need to do anything to my car. i thought that they will have to replace the floormats and install some kind of override system.... =/
03-05-10, 02:51 PM
#928
Lexus Test Driver
I really hope the media does its job and reports the fact that "unintended acceleration" has been reported in just about all car brands. And at a higher rate than Toyota! It pisses me off that Toyota is being brought to its knees while VW and others who have more complaints get off free with no recalls. This is an outrage.
I really do believe it's driver error in most cases.
I really do believe it's driver error in most cases.
03-05-10, 03:19 PM
#929
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i dont want to really read through 60+ pages of posts but are they doing anything about the 2is? i brought mine into the dealership the other day and all they did was check if my all weather mat was in place by the 2 hooks. service guy said i was ok and they wern't going to need to do anything to my car. i thought that they will have to replace the floormats and install some kind of override system.... =/
Indeed, as a 2nd-gen IS owner, you get the override, cut-off accelerator pedal and new all-weather floor mats. Thing is, Lexus is rolling out the recall fixes on a gradual basis, depending on model. FWD-platform sedans (Camry/Avalon/Lexus ES) are first, because a far higher proportion of them have been involved in purported unintended acceleration incidents.
To my knowledge, Lexus isn't even starting to recall 2nd-gen ISs until March/April. Also totally up in the air at this point is how they're going to cut/handle Lexus IS Sport and X-Package metal sport pedals...
03-05-10, 04:18 PM
#930
New info:
ABC News Brian Ross demonstration alleged to be faked, manipulated and used spliced video:
http://gawker.com/5486666/how-abc-ne...ota-death-ride
Toyota fights back, media demonstration set for Monday:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj
It's about time!!!
Agreed!!!! I think Toyota looked at the Audi acceleration fiasco and thought, ok, we'll do the opposite of that--thinking that is the way to avoid the problem by rolling over and just taking all the blame. But I think that the results speak for themselves--this approach does not work all that well either. Sure, don't blame the customers--that is a no-no in the US, but they have to fight back with the facts against a ravenous and inaccurate media. Not to mention:
This chart shows how overhyped the 'crisis' has been. Sure, Toyota could stand to improve on its acceleration complaints, but anyone can file a complaint, and it's clear that Toyota's complaint rates are not the highest by far.
Still, Letterman and Leno have been doing nightly jokes about this...Leno with the "Prius will crash into trees" and Letterman with his "Toyota engine will explode, now that's a good thing" and even the Top 10 list with Toyota bobsledders.
These stories need to be rebutted and the fiasco move out of the headlines so that the media focuses on some other cause celebre.
I'm thinking of writing up a "10 Myths about the Toyota Recall" post that perhaps could be picked up to counter all the ridiculous info I've seen being pushed...including:
1) The CHP officer's crash is unexplained/electronic. FALSE. The NHTSA investigation AND the County Sheriff's investigation both have concluded that the SUV floor mat played a central role in the crash. The Sheriff even tested the mats in other ES 350s and found it jamming the accelerator. The crashed car itself had the pedal and mat glued together from the heat and being stuck.
2) Rhonda Smith's story is unexplained, NHTSA and Toyota never responded to them, etc. FALSE. The NHTSA investigation found that Rhonda had incorrectly installed the floor mats--she didn't take out the carpeted mats, and simply stacked the weather mats on top of them. They were not even hooked properly. NHTSA concluded that the mats caused that accident. Rhonda's testimony is unreliable.
3) Sean Kane is a 'safety advocacy organization'. True, but it's a FOR-PROFIT organization that makes its money off of suing car manufacturers. The whole point is to blame the manufacturer for everything, that's how he makes money. ABC News, LA Times, CNN, etc NEVER disclosed this. He has a profit motive in insisting that electronics are at fault.
4) Mr. Biller's testimony and secret documents shows that Toyota concealed critical safety information from plaintiffs. FALSE. The lawyer who handled Biller's case, and wanted to sue Toyota (and has done in the past) found that far from a 'smoking gun' with those documents, they contained simple e-mail correspondence, resume copies, etc. Also Biller has a history of mental instability.
5) The Avalon-in-lake case was a problem where the driver had complained to dealership before about acceleration, and that there was no possible way the driver could have stopped the car, even with the floor mats in the trunk. FALSE. Dealer records show that contrary to the lawsuit filings, there were no dealership complaints made of the accelerator sticking. In addition, a fact IGNORED by the vast majority of news reports, the driver had a history of epilepsy. This cannot be easily detected after the fact, but a seizure while driving is a real possibility for this 45 mph accident.
6) The NHTSA data shows that 52 people have been killed because of Toyota defects. FALSE. The 52 number is from alleged Toyota acceleration problems, and of those 4 are known to be due to an incorrect floor mat. Others have not been conclusively stated to be a defect, driver error, or some other cause. Many news organizations have said that 52 are "linked" to the Toyota problems but that is an alleged number, not a fact.
7) Mr. Gilbert's demonstration conclusively shows that Toyota's have an electronic defect. FALSE. As indicated in analysis by Autoblog, Autoline, and others, the demonstration does not disclose the methodology used, nor does it suggest a realistic scenario. Any electromechanical device can be wired to malfunction, even to the point where no warning light is activated. Moreover, the news reports did not disclose that Mr. Gilbert is being paid by Mr. Kane of the for-profit Safety Strategies Inc. And, as recently found by Gawker, ABC News manipulated the video footage to hype that demonstration.
Etc. etc. There are so many falsehoods promulgated by the media that it's unconscionable that these reporters would consider themselves an ethical profession. Not all of them are this bad, mind you (I've been impressed by some old media reporters like the WSJ, and new media sites).
Maybe this list could be changed a bit to be less technical and issue-y, but e-mail memes like this get pushed around and IMO there needs to be more to counter the wide array of falsehoods being spread by ABC News and certain outfits.
ABC News Brian Ross demonstration alleged to be faked, manipulated and used spliced video:
http://gawker.com/5486666/how-abc-ne...ota-death-ride
Toyota fights back, media demonstration set for Monday:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj
In a media event planned for Monday and a Tuesday address to 1,000 suppliers, the Japanese auto maker plans to defend its electronics systems.
It will roll out independent experts like the head of Stanford University's auto-research center to discredit a study that suggests electronics are to blame for sudden acceleration in some Toyota vehicles.
The company is also challenging the credibility of a self-described whistleblower who has turned over internal company documents to congressional investigators. The company is providing reporters with court filings that it says show the former employee has a history of mental illness and poor performance reviews.
Toyota is going to "take the gloves off and respond to their critics," according to a person familiar with the company's thinking. "Clearly it is going to be the most powerful defense that they have made versus what their critics have described and is a signal of a more aggressive response," the person said.
It will roll out independent experts like the head of Stanford University's auto-research center to discredit a study that suggests electronics are to blame for sudden acceleration in some Toyota vehicles.
The company is also challenging the credibility of a self-described whistleblower who has turned over internal company documents to congressional investigators. The company is providing reporters with court filings that it says show the former employee has a history of mental illness and poor performance reviews.
Toyota is going to "take the gloves off and respond to their critics," according to a person familiar with the company's thinking. "Clearly it is going to be the most powerful defense that they have made versus what their critics have described and is a signal of a more aggressive response," the person said.
yes, and that's why i'm saddened that toyota didn't wake up and smell the napalm sooner and respond VIGOROUSLY. being 'nice' in all this is a sucker's game. i would bring defamation suits against all those newspapers and other media reporting only accidents about toyotas that have nothing to do with anything toyota has done. i would run some 'straight talk' ads, you tube videos, print, etc., not this soft stuff, but direct, on toyota's RECORD, rebutt the lies and misrepresentations and confusion (mixing mats, pedals, software, DRIVER ERROR), etc. and yes, i'd hire celebrities. lots of 'em. maybe get donald trump to say it's b*llsh... or SOMETHING.
This chart shows how overhyped the 'crisis' has been. Sure, Toyota could stand to improve on its acceleration complaints, but anyone can file a complaint, and it's clear that Toyota's complaint rates are not the highest by far.
Still, Letterman and Leno have been doing nightly jokes about this...Leno with the "Prius will crash into trees" and Letterman with his "Toyota engine will explode, now that's a good thing" and even the Top 10 list with Toyota bobsledders.
These stories need to be rebutted and the fiasco move out of the headlines so that the media focuses on some other cause celebre.
I'm thinking of writing up a "10 Myths about the Toyota Recall" post that perhaps could be picked up to counter all the ridiculous info I've seen being pushed...including:
1) The CHP officer's crash is unexplained/electronic. FALSE. The NHTSA investigation AND the County Sheriff's investigation both have concluded that the SUV floor mat played a central role in the crash. The Sheriff even tested the mats in other ES 350s and found it jamming the accelerator. The crashed car itself had the pedal and mat glued together from the heat and being stuck.
2) Rhonda Smith's story is unexplained, NHTSA and Toyota never responded to them, etc. FALSE. The NHTSA investigation found that Rhonda had incorrectly installed the floor mats--she didn't take out the carpeted mats, and simply stacked the weather mats on top of them. They were not even hooked properly. NHTSA concluded that the mats caused that accident. Rhonda's testimony is unreliable.
3) Sean Kane is a 'safety advocacy organization'. True, but it's a FOR-PROFIT organization that makes its money off of suing car manufacturers. The whole point is to blame the manufacturer for everything, that's how he makes money. ABC News, LA Times, CNN, etc NEVER disclosed this. He has a profit motive in insisting that electronics are at fault.
4) Mr. Biller's testimony and secret documents shows that Toyota concealed critical safety information from plaintiffs. FALSE. The lawyer who handled Biller's case, and wanted to sue Toyota (and has done in the past) found that far from a 'smoking gun' with those documents, they contained simple e-mail correspondence, resume copies, etc. Also Biller has a history of mental instability.
5) The Avalon-in-lake case was a problem where the driver had complained to dealership before about acceleration, and that there was no possible way the driver could have stopped the car, even with the floor mats in the trunk. FALSE. Dealer records show that contrary to the lawsuit filings, there were no dealership complaints made of the accelerator sticking. In addition, a fact IGNORED by the vast majority of news reports, the driver had a history of epilepsy. This cannot be easily detected after the fact, but a seizure while driving is a real possibility for this 45 mph accident.
6) The NHTSA data shows that 52 people have been killed because of Toyota defects. FALSE. The 52 number is from alleged Toyota acceleration problems, and of those 4 are known to be due to an incorrect floor mat. Others have not been conclusively stated to be a defect, driver error, or some other cause. Many news organizations have said that 52 are "linked" to the Toyota problems but that is an alleged number, not a fact.
7) Mr. Gilbert's demonstration conclusively shows that Toyota's have an electronic defect. FALSE. As indicated in analysis by Autoblog, Autoline, and others, the demonstration does not disclose the methodology used, nor does it suggest a realistic scenario. Any electromechanical device can be wired to malfunction, even to the point where no warning light is activated. Moreover, the news reports did not disclose that Mr. Gilbert is being paid by Mr. Kane of the for-profit Safety Strategies Inc. And, as recently found by Gawker, ABC News manipulated the video footage to hype that demonstration.
Etc. etc. There are so many falsehoods promulgated by the media that it's unconscionable that these reporters would consider themselves an ethical profession. Not all of them are this bad, mind you (I've been impressed by some old media reporters like the WSJ, and new media sites).
Maybe this list could be changed a bit to be less technical and issue-y, but e-mail memes like this get pushed around and IMO there needs to be more to counter the wide array of falsehoods being spread by ABC News and certain outfits.
Last edited by encore888; 03-06-10 at 10:25 PM.