Toyota recalls and related issues: BusinessWeek-Media owes Toyota an apology
#1277
Lexus Fanatic
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http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nasa-s...ry?id=10241757
NASA Scientists to Test Toyota Electronics
"NASA spokesman Keith Henry said the NESC was supposed to deliver its findings on electronic throttles to NHTSA by late summer.
Electrical engineer Antony Anderson, who was among the engineers who appeared at a press conference in Washington earlier this month demanding outside analysis of Toyota throttles, hailed LaHood's outreach to NASA.
"I think this is real progress," said Anderson, who has consistently argued that electromagnetic interference, or EMI, is the likely culprit in many cases of sudden unintended acceleration. "With NASA, safety is paramount."
Anderson said that NASA is very aware of the potential impact of EMI on electrical systems in spacecraft. Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said that the company "welcomes the opportunity for NAS and NASA to weigh in on these discussions" and that DOT and NHTSA had Toyota's full support"
NASA Scientists to Test Toyota Electronics
"NASA spokesman Keith Henry said the NESC was supposed to deliver its findings on electronic throttles to NHTSA by late summer.
Electrical engineer Antony Anderson, who was among the engineers who appeared at a press conference in Washington earlier this month demanding outside analysis of Toyota throttles, hailed LaHood's outreach to NASA.
"I think this is real progress," said Anderson, who has consistently argued that electromagnetic interference, or EMI, is the likely culprit in many cases of sudden unintended acceleration. "With NASA, safety is paramount."
Anderson said that NASA is very aware of the potential impact of EMI on electrical systems in spacecraft. Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said that the company "welcomes the opportunity for NAS and NASA to weigh in on these discussions" and that DOT and NHTSA had Toyota's full support"
#1279
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100405/..._toyota_recall
Is this proportionate to the "crime"? "Largest fine ever"? I wonder if the heavy hand of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood was a prime factor in it (and the motive to bring this story into the headlines or magnify its 'evident egregiousness'). Or they are making an example of Toyota.
There ABC News goes again. The Andersons (there are at least two of them now from the UK), are the scientists who are helping lawyers suing Toyota, and claiming electrical faults. Reading this Mr. Anderson's site, one finds that he has this whole vendetta against electronics, wanting mechanicals back, complete with the scaremongering 'with electronics the computer decides for you, not you" etc.
Govt to seek $16M penalty over Toyota recalls
By KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Writer Ken Thomas, Associated Press Writer – 6 mins ago
WASHINGTON – The Transportation Department says it's seeking the maximum penalty, more than $16 million, against Toyota for failing to promptly notify the government about defective gas pedals among its vehicles.
The fine would be the largest civil penalty ever issued to an automaker by the government.
Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood says evidence shows that Toyota knew of the problem with sticking gas pedals in late September but did not issue a recall until late January.
Toyota has two weeks to accept or contest the $16.375 million penalty.
Toyota has recalled more than 6 million vehicles in the U.S., and more than 8 million worldwide, because of acceleration problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius hybrid.
By KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Writer Ken Thomas, Associated Press Writer – 6 mins ago
WASHINGTON – The Transportation Department says it's seeking the maximum penalty, more than $16 million, against Toyota for failing to promptly notify the government about defective gas pedals among its vehicles.
The fine would be the largest civil penalty ever issued to an automaker by the government.
Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood says evidence shows that Toyota knew of the problem with sticking gas pedals in late September but did not issue a recall until late January.
Toyota has two weeks to accept or contest the $16.375 million penalty.
Toyota has recalled more than 6 million vehicles in the U.S., and more than 8 million worldwide, because of acceleration problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius hybrid.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nasa-s...ry?id=10241757
Electrical engineer Antony Anderson, who was among the engineers who appeared at a press conference in Washington earlier this month demanding outside analysis of Toyota throttles, hailed LaHood's outreach to NASA.
"I think this is real progress," said Anderson, who has consistently argued that electromagnetic interference, or EMI, is the likely culprit in many cases of sudden unintended acceleration. "With NASA, safety is paramount."
Electrical engineer Antony Anderson, who was among the engineers who appeared at a press conference in Washington earlier this month demanding outside analysis of Toyota throttles, hailed LaHood's outreach to NASA.
"I think this is real progress," said Anderson, who has consistently argued that electromagnetic interference, or EMI, is the likely culprit in many cases of sudden unintended acceleration. "With NASA, safety is paramount."
#1280
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So the government wants to issue the largest such fine ever to a car company when they themselves own two competing car companies.
Yeah, nothing's wrong with that.
Yeah, nothing's wrong with that.
#1282
I'm very interested in the test results from NASA. Other than EMI, they specialize in finding problems. One of which is "Tin Whiskers". Solder connections grow whiskers and cause shorting between electronic connections and ground or between connections. Once shorted the evidence, whisker, disappears making finding the problem difficult.
I'm hoping at least that the speculation about the problem is answered once and for all. The impact of the answer is for all automobiles, not just Toyota and the amount of electronic control is just going to increase.
Throwing the car into neutral seems so natural to many of us on this forum, but there are many more folks without a clue. Cars now park themselves. Look for headlines about sudden unintended parking accidents.
Of course, throwing the car into neutral may not work for a car experiencing SUA. Oh NASA, give us the answer!!
I'm hoping at least that the speculation about the problem is answered once and for all. The impact of the answer is for all automobiles, not just Toyota and the amount of electronic control is just going to increase.
Throwing the car into neutral seems so natural to many of us on this forum, but there are many more folks without a clue. Cars now park themselves. Look for headlines about sudden unintended parking accidents.
Of course, throwing the car into neutral may not work for a car experiencing SUA. Oh NASA, give us the answer!!
#1283
$16 million is pocket change to a multi-billion dollar organization. It probably would cost more in legal fees to challenge this. If Toyota wants to defend in principle, than go for it but personally I think that would continue to extend the negative publicity for months or years. Pay the fine, get it out of the spotlight, and move on, or as in so many other cases, pay the fine but admit no wrong doing.
#1284
Lexus Fanatic
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EMI what a freaking joke. The voltages involved in the sensors are much higher than EMI that is experienced. I can cook a breakfast burrito with a microwave in the passenger seat and there would be no interference. They are grabbing at straws now its so laughable. Just goes to show what happens when the worlds of junk science and trial lawyers intersect.
Sorry if EMI was affecting toyota pedals, it would be affecting countless other electrical devices in the market...including other car manufacturers. All your refineries and chemical plants run on countless signals that are 4-20mA in magnitude. Yea no EMI there, anyone with experience with electronics will realize this EMI argument is laughable considering the magnitudes of the signals and the ambient EMI in nature.
comment I saw:
Sorry if EMI was affecting toyota pedals, it would be affecting countless other electrical devices in the market...including other car manufacturers. All your refineries and chemical plants run on countless signals that are 4-20mA in magnitude. Yea no EMI there, anyone with experience with electronics will realize this EMI argument is laughable considering the magnitudes of the signals and the ambient EMI in nature.
comment I saw:
This article is complete fantasy land. I am an engine electronic controls engineer. I know exactly how these systems work. Conspiracy theorists love to point at electronic bugaboos because they have no clue what they are talking about. They see their PC crash or act erratically and assume that a computer on a car can do the same thing because 'they are both computers, right?'.
The systems operate on a completely different scale with automobile computer systems put through years of fault tolerance testing. Saying that EMI is causing problems is about equivalent to saying a ghost pressed on the accelerator pedal.
And for people calling for mechanical controls, you really have no clue. Mechanical controls failures are much more common and unpredictable than electronic controls. Over time mechanical controls wear out and are subject to all sorts of dirt and corrosion. Electronic connections can deteriorate but the connections are well protected and fail very rarely on their own. The computer itself is sealed and they rarely fail anymore even after 20 years of operation.
The systems operate on a completely different scale with automobile computer systems put through years of fault tolerance testing. Saying that EMI is causing problems is about equivalent to saying a ghost pressed on the accelerator pedal.
And for people calling for mechanical controls, you really have no clue. Mechanical controls failures are much more common and unpredictable than electronic controls. Over time mechanical controls wear out and are subject to all sorts of dirt and corrosion. Electronic connections can deteriorate but the connections are well protected and fail very rarely on their own. The computer itself is sealed and they rarely fail anymore even after 20 years of operation.
These overly simplistic articles about how easy it MIGHT be for EMI to cause unintended acceleration require major suspension of disbelief. I work for a major automotive company in the engine control software area, and have a bit of knowledge regarding standard industry practices so let me make a few points:
1. Article cites 1987 Hughes/GM memo raising concerns about EMI and unintended acceleration; all GM's vehicles in 1987 used mechanical throttles to control the air supply to the engine. Air is the most important determinant of how much torque/power and engine can produce(fuel and spark follow air's lead via the electronic systems). So how did the electronics move the mechanical throttle? ??? Perhaps the EMI was so great that the driver received a shock large enough to involutarily move his pedal foot to the floor? :-)
2. EMI is FAR more likely to cause an engine miss or stall. That is the major reason that auto companies emphasize immunity and robust design practices with regard to EMI and do intensive testing. The chances of EMI causing unintended acceleration are much closer to zero than your chance of winning the Poweball Lottery! It is very difficult to devise a scenaro for uinexpected power which does NOT involve a throttle pedal pushed significantly downward.
3. All manufacturers use at least two sensors to determine pedal position. These two sensors have different electrical charateristics. If the two different values from the two different sensors are not a matched pair (of different values), then engine power is limited. It boggles the imagination to think that an EMI source could occur which would overwhelm the actual signal and produced a matched set of inputs requesting full throttle and continue in intensity over the long distance traveled by a runaway vehicle.
4. The pedal sensors are low impedance inputs. What does this mean? An antenna circuit, for example is a high impedance input. Using the impedance form of Ohm's law, E = IZ where Z is impedance. This equation means that a very small induced current from an electrical signal will produce a significant enough voltage to be useful if it is amplified sufficiently and processed to produce music on your radio or a TV signal. Low impedance means that it would take a heart stopping lightning bolt in close proximity to develop a significant voltage on the circuit. See my driver electrocution point in item 1.
5. Your engine controller module has a GREAT deal of software which looks for oxymoronic conditions with respect to power produced vs. power requested via the pedal. For example is there an air leak allowing more air into the engine than would be expected based on the pedal position? This will be managed by actions ranging from adjusting the actual throttle position for small leaks to shutting off one or more injectors for bigger leaks to shutting off the engine entirely for a large leak. There are many, many more consistency checks within the main processor.
6. There is also a second, independent microprocessor which independently monitors engine functions and can shut off all the injector circuits if it detects a significant mismatch. So even if the main "brain" microprocessor is brain dead with the throttle wide open and just the right amount of fuel, the second processor will prevent fuel injection and the engine will stop.
So what to do if the pedal gets stuck under the floormat? Put the transmission in neutral and brake to a stop in a safe place with continuous brake action, do not pump brakes. The engine will not over-rev in neutral - we've got an App for that! Second choice: turn the ignition off and brake to a stop. Easy to do with a key; if you have push button stop start, you have to have the presence of mind to keep the button pressed continuously until the engine stops. This can be up to 3 seconds for some vehicles or as little as 1 second for others including our company's vehicles.
1. Article cites 1987 Hughes/GM memo raising concerns about EMI and unintended acceleration; all GM's vehicles in 1987 used mechanical throttles to control the air supply to the engine. Air is the most important determinant of how much torque/power and engine can produce(fuel and spark follow air's lead via the electronic systems). So how did the electronics move the mechanical throttle? ??? Perhaps the EMI was so great that the driver received a shock large enough to involutarily move his pedal foot to the floor? :-)
2. EMI is FAR more likely to cause an engine miss or stall. That is the major reason that auto companies emphasize immunity and robust design practices with regard to EMI and do intensive testing. The chances of EMI causing unintended acceleration are much closer to zero than your chance of winning the Poweball Lottery! It is very difficult to devise a scenaro for uinexpected power which does NOT involve a throttle pedal pushed significantly downward.
3. All manufacturers use at least two sensors to determine pedal position. These two sensors have different electrical charateristics. If the two different values from the two different sensors are not a matched pair (of different values), then engine power is limited. It boggles the imagination to think that an EMI source could occur which would overwhelm the actual signal and produced a matched set of inputs requesting full throttle and continue in intensity over the long distance traveled by a runaway vehicle.
4. The pedal sensors are low impedance inputs. What does this mean? An antenna circuit, for example is a high impedance input. Using the impedance form of Ohm's law, E = IZ where Z is impedance. This equation means that a very small induced current from an electrical signal will produce a significant enough voltage to be useful if it is amplified sufficiently and processed to produce music on your radio or a TV signal. Low impedance means that it would take a heart stopping lightning bolt in close proximity to develop a significant voltage on the circuit. See my driver electrocution point in item 1.
5. Your engine controller module has a GREAT deal of software which looks for oxymoronic conditions with respect to power produced vs. power requested via the pedal. For example is there an air leak allowing more air into the engine than would be expected based on the pedal position? This will be managed by actions ranging from adjusting the actual throttle position for small leaks to shutting off one or more injectors for bigger leaks to shutting off the engine entirely for a large leak. There are many, many more consistency checks within the main processor.
6. There is also a second, independent microprocessor which independently monitors engine functions and can shut off all the injector circuits if it detects a significant mismatch. So even if the main "brain" microprocessor is brain dead with the throttle wide open and just the right amount of fuel, the second processor will prevent fuel injection and the engine will stop.
So what to do if the pedal gets stuck under the floormat? Put the transmission in neutral and brake to a stop in a safe place with continuous brake action, do not pump brakes. The engine will not over-rev in neutral - we've got an App for that! Second choice: turn the ignition off and brake to a stop. Easy to do with a key; if you have push button stop start, you have to have the presence of mind to keep the button pressed continuously until the engine stops. This can be up to 3 seconds for some vehicles or as little as 1 second for others including our company's vehicles.
Last edited by 4TehNguyen; 04-06-10 at 10:50 AM.
#1285
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If the evidence shows Toyota was negligent in their responsibility to consumer safety, I have no problem with the maximum fine/highest fine ever being slapped on Toyota. Don't put corporate greed beyond any corporation, regardless of industry.
$16 million is pocket change to a multi-billion dollar organization. It probably would cost more in legal fees to challenge this. If Toyota wants to defend in principle, than go for it but personally I think that would continue to extend the negative publicity for months or years. Pay the fine, get it out of the spotlight, and move on, or as in so many other cases, pay the fine but admit no wrong doing.
$16 million is pocket change to a multi-billion dollar organization. It probably would cost more in legal fees to challenge this. If Toyota wants to defend in principle, than go for it but personally I think that would continue to extend the negative publicity for months or years. Pay the fine, get it out of the spotlight, and move on, or as in so many other cases, pay the fine but admit no wrong doing.
Plus we all know that these cases are driver error.
#1286
Win Dollars
I hate it when April Fool's is close, ya never know what's real...
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/06/e...den-accelerat/
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/06/e...den-accelerat/
#1287
Pole Position
iTrader: (5)
Hmm I wonder what this means...
Source:
"We Need to Come Clean"
So does this mean that they were REALLY hiding something?!?! ....
Source:
"We Need to Come Clean"
WASHINGTON – Five days before Toyota announced a massive recall, a U.S. public relations executive at the automaker warned colleagues in an internal e-mail: "We need to come clean" about accelerator problems, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press on Wednesday.
"We are not protecting our customers by keeping this quiet," wrote Irv Miller, group vice president for environment and public affairs. "The time to hide on this one is over."
The recently retired Miller wrote the e-mail on Jan. 16, 2010, as Toyota officials were on their way to Washington to discuss the problems with federal regulators. On Jan. 21, Toyota announced it would recall 2.3 million vehicles to address sticking pedals in six vehicle models.
"We are not protecting our customers by keeping this quiet," wrote Irv Miller, group vice president for environment and public affairs. "The time to hide on this one is over."
The recently retired Miller wrote the e-mail on Jan. 16, 2010, as Toyota officials were on their way to Washington to discuss the problems with federal regulators. On Jan. 21, Toyota announced it would recall 2.3 million vehicles to address sticking pedals in six vehicle models.
#1289
I hate it when April Fool's is close, ya never know what's real...
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/06/e...den-accelerat/
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/06/e...den-accelerat/
Frankly, it's a win/win for them. The "contest" buys them public goodwill and publicity as a concerned, conscientious company. I'll bet that, deep down, they know that nothing will turn up and that they won't have to part with the money...
#1290
Pole Position
I agree, they have no intention of letting that $$ go because they know they'll never have to. Basically, they are saying "It's a driver issue, not a manufacturing issue, and to prove it, we are willing to bet $1,000,000".