Acura: Tier 1 goal abandoned..."Smart luxury" in (Sub TSX coming, hybrids)
12-08-09, 06:02 AM
#46
Lexus Test Driver
Smart luxury lol, isn’t that what people call it when they wave the white flag. It seems to me Acura is downsizing not re-focusing, they have given up trying to compete with the big boys. What a shame, Acura in its prime were so close to tier one. Somehow, they lost their way and started a downward trend that they cannot stop. Their biggest mistake was the discontinuation of the NSX. That is follow by a series of bad-redesigns, such as the RL, TL and the MDX. Top that off with fail projects such as the RDX and ZDX and you have the recipe for disaster.
12-08-09, 07:18 AM
#47
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Well I saw this car (ZDX) in person at the show in SF and its as ugly as sin to me I felt the same even when I saw the car in pictures but you may like it, to each his own. I even got the chance to get in it. getting in the back seat tall folks will hit their head getting in and sitting straight up as the roof line swoops downward. I kept hearing guys moan about that, and how they have really bend down and tuck to get in, one guy smacked his head pretty good getting in. Cargo space behind the back seat is a joke.
12-08-09, 07:57 AM
#48
Lexus Fanatic
Cars fail for a reason, not just by coincidence. There is something keeping people away from the RL that just doesn't work. It could be the styling, it could be the size, it could be the price, it could be the name, it could be what preceded it, it could be the lack of a 2WD model, it could be the lack of V8... who knows really. But people don't avoid cars w/o reason. The RL is responsible for low RL sales.
All you have do to is look at Lexus, Mercedes, BMW to see examples of what it takes to sell cars by the thousands each month in that same price range.
12-08-09, 08:32 AM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
And, of course, no matter what specific vehicle you are talking about, the depreciation rate, in general, will be determined by the prevailing demand as a used car. On occasion, depreciation on some cars can be zero or even negative (meaning in increase in value). Used 2010 Camaro SS models, for example, when they can be found (and few they are), sometimes bring more than they sold for new.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-08-09 at 08:38 AM.
12-08-09, 08:35 AM
#50
Lexus Test Driver
Not always......it depends on the circumstances. A car that sells poorly, brand new, because it is simply overpriced may have better demand as a used car simply because the public feels that it is a better value once some depreciation has set in. The problem, of course, is that if it sells poorly as a new car, there will be few units available as used-cars, no matter what the demand. The VW Phaeton was a good example.....obviously, very few buyers thought it a good value as a new car, but they were willing to consider it as a used-car.....but the used samples, of course, weren't there. The 2Gen Acura RL, to an extent, is another example, although of course it easily outsold the Phaeton.
12-08-09, 09:18 AM
#51
Lexus Fanatic
Not always......it depends on the circumstances. A car that sells poorly, brand new, because it is simply overpriced may have better demand as a used car simply because the public feels that it is a better value once some depreciation has set in. The problem, of course, is that if it sells poorly as a new car, there will be few units available as used-cars, no matter what the demand. The VW Phaeton was a good example.....obviously, very few buyers thought it a good value as a new car, but they were willing to consider it as a used-car.....but the used samples, of course, weren't there. The 2Gen Acura RL, to an extent, is another example, although of course it easily outsold the Phaeton.
And, of course, no matter what specific vehicle you are talking about, the depreciation rate, in general, will be determined by the prevailing demand as a used car. On occasion, depreciation on some cars can be zero or even negative (meaning in increase in value). Used 2010 Camaro SS models, for example, when they can be found (and few they are), sometimes bring more than they sold for new.
And, of course, no matter what specific vehicle you are talking about, the depreciation rate, in general, will be determined by the prevailing demand as a used car. On occasion, depreciation on some cars can be zero or even negative (meaning in increase in value). Used 2010 Camaro SS models, for example, when they can be found (and few they are), sometimes bring more than they sold for new.
As usual you have provided a poor example with the used 2010 Camaro SS ( a high demand, short supply, strong selling, supercar),
versus a wannabe luxury car that sells 150 units per month. Kind of like when you compared the RL to the NSX.
These type of comparisons are such a stretchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......................................................................................
But what the heck, opinions are cool.
Last edited by IS-SV; 12-08-09 at 09:22 AM. Reason: sp
12-08-09, 09:25 AM
#52
Lexus Fanatic
12-08-09, 09:29 AM
#53
Lexus Fanatic
And I probably misread your Camaro SS comment on resale, my fault.
Because what you really weren't comparing the RL to the Camaro SS, you were just pointing out a specific example of a zero depreciation car and in that context it's certainly a valid example.
12-08-09, 10:56 AM
#54
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Well I saw this car (ZDX) in person at the show in SF and its as ugly as sin to me I felt the same even when I saw the car in pictures but you may like it, to each his own. I even got the chance to get in it. getting in the back seat tall folks will hit their head getting in and sitting straight up as the roof line swoops downward. I kept hearing guys moan about that, and how they have really bend down and tuck to get in, one guy smacked his head pretty good getting in. Cargo space behind the back seat is a joke.
12-08-09, 11:52 AM
#55
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^^ yeah I was in the front seat trying not to laugh as he was holding the side of his forehead. Not that it was funny but his reaction to the car afterwards as he sat in the back seat kinda tickled me. Other than that and its sheer ugliness the interior is a bit wierd in a futuristic kinda way but nice as you would expect from Acura, it wasn't all that bad. I can't see how anyone would logically choose this over a MDX though.
12-08-09, 12:29 PM
#56
Pole Position
Cars fail for a reason, not just by coincidence. There is something keeping people away from the RL that just doesn't work. It could be the styling, it could be the size, it could be the price, it could be the name, it could be what preceded it, it could be the lack of a 2WD model, it could be the lack of V8... who knows really. But people don't avoid cars w/o reason. The RL is responsible for low RL sales.
"let's change our models from names to number/letters because it will reflect a more upscale product"
"Let's go for technological advancement because that's what Acura stands for."
"Let's go tier 1 because that's what buyers want".
"let's build safety first because that's what will bring back Acura's name."
No wonder people are confused. When will it stop?
IMO, there's nothing wrong with the RL. It's a fine automobile and is priced fairly. The problem is with the car company that builds it. Consumers don't know who Acura is anymore.
12-08-09, 12:40 PM
#57
Lexus Fanatic
I'm not convinced it's that complicated, IMO ^^^. I think the RL is responsible for the RL's lack of sales.
The MDX and TL despite being ugly sell at a respectable rate.
I see plenty of CL members buying plenty of cars in this price range (myself included), but not one gets close to buying an RL.
The MDX and TL despite being ugly sell at a respectable rate.
I see plenty of CL members buying plenty of cars in this price range (myself included), but not one gets close to buying an RL.
12-08-09, 12:57 PM
#58
since the dollar's soon to be worthless and the govt is planning to tax everyone HEAVILY but especially those 'rich' people (meaning anyone making 6 figures), good luck selling luxury cars (i bet the VAST majority will be leased in 2 years). acura is smart to regroup, focus on a premium but not high end offering. there's going to be a lot of demand for it, for people who still want something nicer than an accord, but not 'showy' like a mercedes brand.
12-08-09, 01:00 PM
#59
Not always......it depends on the circumstances. A car that sells poorly, brand new, because it is simply overpriced may have better demand as a used car simply because the public feels that it is a better value once some depreciation has set in. The problem, of course, is that if it sells poorly as a new car, there will be few units available as used-cars, no matter what the demand. The VW Phaeton was a good example.....obviously, very few buyers thought it a good value as a new car, but they were willing to consider it as a used-car.....but the used samples, of course, weren't there. The 2Gen Acura RL, to an extent, is another example, although of course it easily outsold the Phaeton.
And, of course, no matter what specific vehicle you are talking about, the depreciation rate, in general, will be determined by the prevailing demand as a used car. On occasion, depreciation on some cars can be zero or even negative (meaning in increase in value). Used 2010 Camaro SS models, for example, when they can be found (and few they are), sometimes bring more than they sold for new.
And, of course, no matter what specific vehicle you are talking about, the depreciation rate, in general, will be determined by the prevailing demand as a used car. On occasion, depreciation on some cars can be zero or even negative (meaning in increase in value). Used 2010 Camaro SS models, for example, when they can be found (and few they are), sometimes bring more than they sold for new.
Low demand new cars are usually great used values. For instance the now discontinued Q45 can be had for amazingly low price on the used market, same with Phaeton, and to some degree the RL and Lexus very own 3GS.
12-08-09, 01:02 PM
#60
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I'm not convinced it's that complicated, IMO ^^^. I think the RL is responsible for the RL's lack of sales.
The MDX and TL despite being ugly sell at a respectable rate.
I see plenty of CL members buying plenty of cars in this price range (myself included), but not one gets close to buying an RL.
The MDX and TL despite being ugly sell at a respectable rate.
I see plenty of CL members buying plenty of cars in this price range (myself included), but not one gets close to buying an RL.
So what do they do? Make a bland looking, AWD only 50-55k Acura with average acceleration.
TWO vehicles let me know Acura WAS NOT serious about what they were saying and I said it years ago.
1. The TSX. Yeah its a great sub entry level vehicle. Its not premium. Its not on par with the IS/C/3 etc....where am I going with this? Well remember, Acura said "oh we are dropping the RSX to move up, no one wants a 4 cylinder 2 door". The VERY NEXT vehicle they bring is a 4 cylinder Euro Accord 4 door!!
That made no sense. The RSX should have sold along it. You can't say you are moving upmarket and do a rebadge. 2. The RL. From day one I said it would flop. This is the BEST the company has to offer, their flagship, their technological tour-de-force, this is where the brand is to go. It flopped and enjoyed its best sales the months before the new M/GS arrived. The car simply does not conjure up images of a brand going forward. In retrospect, I much rather the RL debuted with ugly beak/odd all over styling and then it trickle down. Instead the RL got a facelift and followed the TSX, then TL (if this fail sounds familiar, Infiniti had the same issue with the Q45....it debuted first but the G35 is what Infiniti is identified with today..thus its gone).
I always use this example. The first gen GS was a sales FLOP. Imagine Lexus then came in 1998 with the same formula or barely any changes. Okay styling, V-6 only, AWD. This entire website would be different and Lexus as a whole would be different. Instead Lexus learned their lesson, gave the car great styling, a V-8, and it stood out. Hell I MIGHT NOT be here.
It has a lot to do with Honda's philosophy of efficiency and a LOT of internal fighting. Honda doesn't want or care to really be a luxury brand. They are happy selling tons of cars doing it their way. Acura never was more than Hondas with leather most years. Acura execs wanted to move up and it seems Honda never really wanted to make the investment Toyota made in Lexus. We got a bunch of press releases and hot air and the ZDX.
Thus they end up where they began.
I've said it a million times, no one wants expensive Acuras. They have not built their brand to a level where people will GLADLY part with their money for them. In contrast, BMW, Benz, Lexus has the brand power to command premium prices.
Acura should then bring back the RSX, bring the CSX and bring the names back and just be a great 22k-42k brand. NOTHING WRONG with that.
I just fear its too late and in 2010, they will move from 4th to 6th in sales.