Car Chat General discussion about Lexus, other auto manufacturers and automotive news.

Saab is down :(

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 12-21-09, 12:14 PM
  #46  
SLegacy99
Lead Lap
 
SLegacy99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: MD
Posts: 4,511
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mmarshall
Even with the Legacy's lower ground clearance? That's one of the Outback's advantages....a couple more inches of clearance underneath. Of course, with the kind of snow we got here Saturday, neither one probably makes much difference, especially after the roads are plowed.
I have yet to be stranded in a Subaru.
Attached Thumbnails Saab is down :(-13566_10100181919598554_9346917_65065895_2218887_n.jpg  
SLegacy99 is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 12:45 PM
  #47  
IS-SV
Lexus Fanatic
 
IS-SV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: tech capital
Posts: 14,100
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

^^^ impressive Subie/snow blower pic! I only see snow like that my second home at Lake Tahoe but that's at 6400 feet.
IS-SV is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 03:40 PM
  #48  
GFerg
Speaks French in Russian

 
GFerg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: What is G?
Posts: 13,278
Received 64 Likes on 49 Posts
Default Lexus killed Saab, but GM let Saab die.

Lexus killed Saab, but GM let Saab die.




This past Friday, I was seated in a long-lead briefing for another auto manufacturer when the whispered word was passed down the line of seated journalists: “There’s an emergency conference call regarding Saab in ten minutes.” Not too long after that: “Saab is dead. There’s no deal.” All around me, I saw men with their heads cradled in their hands, though I could not tell whether it was from sympathy, misery, or simple world-weariness. From the seat next to me, a sorrowful, poignant comment: “I don’t want to live in a world where the ES350 is a best-seller and Saab is dead.”

What a perceptive statement! For there were more than fifteen long years where people willingly deluded themselves into believing that this world was one where the Camry-by-Lexus could rule the sales roost and, yet, Saab could live. With evidence to the contrary literally surrounding them, Saab’s incompetent, careless stewards at General Motors continued to push the lie: Saab is premium, Saab is luxury, Saab can compete with the Japanese and Germans on equal ground. By the time Saab’s lifeless body finally thumped against the ground, the story had assumed the mantle of tragedy. And like most tragedies, it began with a misunderstanding.

As noted earlier in this series, the primary reason for the prestige accorded European cars in this country in the post-Vietnam era was simply their outrageous cost and relative rarity. This bizarre situation — that of cars selling well simply because they were priced above their true value — led European manufacturers to focus obsessively on the United States on general and the coastal markets in particular. It also created the myth that virtually all European cars priced above a VW Rabbit were inherently “upscale”. (Eventually, that myth would drag even the humble Rabbit up the marketing ladder, but that is a bunny tale for another time.)

Perhaps the upscale-ness (upscality?) of the Mercedes-Benz S-Class was not open to question, but what about cars which served more or less as the Fords or Chevrolets of their home countries, such as Renault, Peugeot, or… Saab? The Saab 99, which carried the Swedish company’s fortunes at home and abroad during the Seventies, was hardly a luxury car by any objective measure. A low-power, front-wheel-drive hatchback with better-than-average seats and an impressive cargo capacity, it should have occupied approximately the same space in the market as the Honda Accord or yet-to-arrive Chevrolet Citation. True, Saab ownership may have been considered a mild luxury back home, but the ownership of any car has traditionally been a privilege in cramped, tax-trampled Europe.

In the prosperous United States, the 99’s all-weather capability combined with its obvious non-American-ness to make it a favorite among university professors, architects, and all those people who are universally represented in mid-Seventies advertising by a pipe-fondling fellow wearing a turtleneck and tweed jacket. The arrival of the “Turbo” model added some measure of performance cachet to the mix, and suddenly Saab was a rather hip car to own. With the introduction of long-nosed, better-equipped 99 variant, known as the “900″, Saab’s position as a niche product for comparative-literature professors and the occasional Cannonball Run wannabe was more or less assured.

Sure, as a company Saab had a product-development timetable that might best be described as “leisurely”, but what did that matter when the best carmaker in the world, Mercedes-Benz, only replaced their mainline sedans every nine or ten years? And if comparable Japanese or American cars offered far more in the way of comfort, features, and performance for less money… what Saab customer would ever want to be seen behind the wheel of a Caprice or a Cressida? The truth of the matter was that people bought Saabs — and Volvos, and Audis, and other European cars — less for what they were that for what they were not. As the American dollar fell through the floor in the Eighties, Saab pricing soared and the market responded by demanding better-equipped, even more expensive Saabs. This luxury-car game was an unbeatable scam. It let a small Swedish company sell rather prosaic cars to important people for outrageous prices, and it showed absolutely no signs of ever coming to an end.

Of course, the end came rather suddenly with the arrival of the second-generation Lexus ES. Based on the 1992 Toyota Camry, arguably the best family sedan in history, the ES300 was flawlessly assembled, impressively equipped, priced in absolutely predatory fashion, and backed by a monstrous armada of pretentious yet effective marketing aimed directly at the heart of America’s nouveau riche. The tweed-jacket crowd didn’t cotton to the snub-nosed Lexus immediately — darling, it looks cheap and common — but as tales of the super-Toyota’s relentless reliability circulated through the dusty, crowded Saab service-department waiting rooms, surely more than one assistant dean seriously considered the idea of switching loyalties.

Most importantly, the 1992 ES was modern, based as it was on a new-for-1992 car. The 1992 Saab 900 was based on the 1968 Saab 99, and it didn’t take too perceptive of an eye to see it. Of course, by then, Saab had already fallen into the orbit of cash-rich General Motors, and GM had new product coming. Kind of. The 1993 Saab 900 was based on a 1988 Opel, said Opel not being a very good car. In Sweden, where nobody expected Saabs to be world-beating luxury superstars, it wasn’t such a big deal. In America, the press and the public measured it against competition ranging from the aforementioned ES300 to the spectacular new E36 BMW and found it to be well below par.

The new-generation Saab lineup of 900 and 9-5 (also, sadly, based on an old Opel) didn’t make the cut from the beginning. A more active corporate custodian would have noticed this and taken swift action. GM, however, apparently felt itself to be in the position of a new boyfriend demanding to be serviced in identical fashion to the old. The 99/900 had lasted twenty-four years and sold well from start to end, therefore the new-gen cars would also have an extended model run regardless of the consequences. The 900 was facelifted into the 9-3 and rotted in the dealerships for a decade before being replaced by another Opel-platform mediocrity. Just for the sake of perspective, it should be noted that the 900/9-3 was sold against three generations of Lexus ES, any and all of which were more reliable, comfortable, and practical than the aging Swede. Even staid old Mercedes-Benz managed to field two new C-Class models during the 900/9-3’s extended run. The addition of a rebadged Oldsmobile Bravada as a third model line did nothing to help matters.

Give Saab’s tweed-clad customer base some credit: many of them remained loyal through years of underwhelming product and unmet promises. By last year, however, Saab buyers were nearly as extinct as the passenger pigeon. Just 21,368 Saabs found American homes in 2008. Lexus sales for 2008 were 23,362. By “2008″, I mean December of 2008. And that’s how the story ends: with a whimper. It’s worth noting that the success of Lexus and Infiniti did not really come at the expense of BMW and Mercedes-Benz, both of which have set US sales records in recent years. It came at the expense of American luxury makers and it came at the expense of the second-tier players like Saab.

It would be deeply satisfying at this point to rant about how American consumer-sheep are morons who would buy a rebadged Camry over a sleek, Euro-speedy Saab, but let’s keep it real. American consumer-sheep aren’t so stupid that they don’t prefer a rebadged modern Camry over a rebadged old Opel. The current 9-3 is a relative to the Chevrolet Malibu and — whisper it — probably isn’t as good of a car, overall, as the Malibu. The current 9-5 is a relative to the dismal old Saturn L-Series. In order to continue as a rational human being on this planet, I simply must believe that at some point, the veneer of psuedo-prestige wears thin enough to expose the rotting structure beneath, and Saab reached that point a long time ago.

The Saab story includes airplanes, rally drivers, turbochargers, iconoclastic personalities, and more than half a century of fabulous designs. The Lexus story is this: it’s a Toyota for people too snobbish or fearful to be seen in a Toyota. Saabs have been wonderful, frisky, characterful companions for a very long time. People cry when their Saabs are towed away for the last time. Nobody’s ever cried over a Lexus, except possibly when they received a repair bill for their out-of-warranty second-gen LS400. Saab was real. Lexus is fake. Simple as that.

Or is it that simple? Saab has been a fraud and a fake for nearly twenty years, selling second-rate cars on dimly remembered glories. Meanwhile, Lexus has been continually building the cars their customers want, always fresh, nearly always reliable, always sold and serviced with a smile. Saab’s better future was perpetually around the corner; meanwhile, the next Lexus was completed on time and plopped, Harvest-Gold-colored, on a calmly rotating showroom turntable. Ask any Saab enthusiast about the brand and they will tell you about the 900 SPG, but ask a Lexus owner about his car and he will tell you he likes it. What is real, and what is no longer relevant?

I have a bit of a fantasy, as a former Saab owner and unrepentant fan of the old cars. I dream that Saab comes roaring back under some daring little ownership umbrella, freed to somehow create world-class product on a shoestring and humiliate the Japanese juggernauts on the open road. I close my eyes and hope for a stunning new car that has the spirit of that old 99 Turbo and brings the old virtues to a generation not even alive when the only two turbo cars on the market were the Saab and the Porsche 930. I think of the Saab workers, earning a decent wage and building cars they love, a bulwark against the vomitous tide of look-alike crap from the Pacific Rim, the Asian Tigers, and eventually the open maw of China. I can think about this, and I can smile.

And then I open my eyes to see a Hyundai Genesis gliding by, more Lexus than Lexus, more fake than the original fakers, yet honest and real in the same way the Lexus ES is honest and real. That’s the future. Luxury was always an illusion. Now it is deliberately so. To imagine that future, if I may paraphrase Orwell, imagine a Chinese-made faux-Ferragamo boot stomping on a human face. Plastic chrome, meaningless names, flowery symbols. This is the future, and in that future, Saab is, inexorably and completely, dead.

http://www.speedsportlife.com/2009/1...-let-saab-die/
GFerg is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 03:58 PM
  #49  
SLegacy99
Lead Lap
 
SLegacy99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: MD
Posts: 4,511
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I can agree with the argument that Lexus certainly stole says that Saab would have had. However, Saab was never tier 1.
SLegacy99 is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 04:01 PM
  #50  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,068
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Thanks for posting the review.

I don't necessarily agree with the article's author that Lexus played that big a part. There IS some truth, however, to the statement that GM let Saab die (just as they foolishly let Saturn die). Saab was never a large automobile seller in the American market to start with, though the company made a line of sucessful twin-engine commuter airliners and combat jets for the Swedish Air Force. They did, at one time, have a small but rather dedicated market here in America for their somewhat quirky, Swedish-designed cars, mostly among people of left-wing origin politically (I won't go into the stereotypes). But, when GM bought the company, they tried to mainstream Saabs too much (Just as they did with Saturn after the successful small plastic-body cars of the 1990's)...the result, for various reasons, simply did not work. The old Saab faithful never really warmed up to the new "Saabs" which were re-engineered versions of GM world-platforms or Subaru vehicles, and the result was a disaster.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 04:03 PM
  #51  
MPLexus301
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (3)
 
MPLexus301's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Friend Zone
Posts: 9,044
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Nice and well written article.

To be honest, if you read this article and interchange "Saab" with "Acura" and "Lexus" with "Hyundai" it's an omen of what is to come, IMO.
MPLexus301 is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 04:07 PM
  #52  
IS-SV
Lexus Fanatic
 
IS-SV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: tech capital
Posts: 14,100
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

I'm certainly not in total agreement with author regarding Saab. But Lexus did take a significant chunk of business from every so-called premium auto maker in the US.

Just another example of Saab and GM proving again how mediocre/bad products make for a bad business model.
IS-SV is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 04:11 PM
  #53  
Trexus
Moderator
 
Trexus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: California
Posts: 4,325
Received 54 Likes on 31 Posts
Default

Lexus came up on their own and makes great cars people want to buy. People aren't forced to buy Lexus or Saab and yet more people put down their hard earned dollars for a Lexus. Well that certainly says something now doesn't it...
Trexus is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 04:12 PM
  #54  
tromly
Pole Position
 
tromly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 3,426
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default

Who could ever think that Saab was ever tier 1, give me a break ! The car was a maintenance nightmare , and not a true performer except in snow!
tromly is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 04:17 PM
  #55  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,068
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by IS-SV
I'm certainly not in total agreement with author regarding Saab. But Lexus did take a significant chunk of business from every so-called premium auto maker in the US.
Can you really compare the two companies, though? Lexus, at least at first, made its mark with vehicles designed more for comfort than sportiness. Saab never placed the emphasis on ride and quietness that Lexus did....or on 6 and 8-cylinder engines. Although the first "sport" Lexus was arguably the GS300 of the mid-1990's, even then, it was a long way from what one would call a true sport-sedan. Not until the IS300 of 2001, derived from the Toyota Altezza (I owned a yellow IS300, BTW), did Lexus introduce a serious attempt to do a sport sedan. And, even then, there were differences between Lexus and Saab....Swedish-designed Saabs were generally FWD, and Lexus passenger cars RWD except for the FWD ES350.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 04:19 PM
  #56  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,068
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by tromly
Who could ever think that Saab was ever tier 1, give me a break ! The car was a maintenance nightmare , and not a true performer except in snow!
I'd have to agree, at least to a extent. Even Acura, which most of us on CAR CHAT feel is not Tier 1 by any means, probably came closer to it than Saab did.

One of the reasons for the maintenance problems was, of course, the simple lack of Saab dealerships in the U.S. That, of course, can effect even somewhat more reliable vehicles like Suzukis and Mitsubishis....they, too, have a dealer-network problem.

Last edited by mmarshall; 12-21-09 at 04:23 PM.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 04:37 PM
  #57  
IS-SV
Lexus Fanatic
 
IS-SV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: tech capital
Posts: 14,100
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by mmarshall
Can you really compare the two companies, though? Lexus, at least at first, made its mark with vehicles designed more for comfort than sportiness. Saab never placed the emphasis on ride and quietness that Lexus did....or on 6 and 8-cylinder engines. Although the first "sport" Lexus was arguably the GS300 of the mid-1990's, even then, it was a long way from what one would call a true sport-sedan. Not until the IS300 of 2001, derived from the Toyota Altezza (I owned a yellow IS300, BTW), did Lexus introduce a serious attempt to do a sport sedan. And, even then, there were differences between Lexus and Saab....Swedish-designed Saabs were generally FWD, and Lexus passenger cars RWD except for the FWD ES350.
I agree, the 2 companies are not comparable. But my point is all real and wannabe premium car makers felt the impact of Lexus (including BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jag, Infiniti, Acura, Saab, Volvo).

The history is only history at this point. By 2009 (today), Lexus was taking chunks of business from a variety of car makers with a strong product portfolio containing vehicles with RWD, AWD, FWD, near-lux, mid-high-end lux, hi-perf sport sedans, SUV's, etc.)
IS-SV is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 04:53 PM
  #58  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,068
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by IS-SV
But my point is all real and wannabe premium car makers felt the impact of Lexus (including BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jag, Infiniti, Acura, Saab, Volvo).[/COLOR]
OK...I'll agree with that. From the way I view auto history, I'd say Mercedes was the first to feel the impact, as the LS400 competed directly with its big sedans...at a much lower price. Then, after that, when smaller Lexus products were introduced, I'd say that Acura was second.....before Lexus and Infiniti hit the scene, Acura was the only premium Japanese automaker in the U.S.....and, of course, was never the same after that. Saab, though, in America, was never much to start with...their core of faithful buyers was just too small.

Lexus and Infiniti were introduced at about the same time, so Infiniti didn't exist earlier. Smaller and mid-sized Infinitis sold pretty well, but the big Q45 was a disaster from the start.....it was poorly marketed, kept shifting gears, and never could quite decide exactly what car it wanted to be.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 12-21-09, 05:30 PM
  #59  
LexFather
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I see where the author was going with this but instead it turned into the USUAL "Lexus sucks, I hate Lexus for being successful review".

My first Lexus was a 92 ES 300 and I still have it, manual to boot so while he owned the Saab, I was on the other side. He fails to mention some things.
1. The ES was actually "fun" at the time, and was a 10 best winner
2. The ES looked miles better than the Saab.
3. The ES was faster than the Saab and performance was the same if not better elsewhere.
4. The ES at the time made any Saab seem like something from the stone ages (he did touch on that).

I didn't even look at a Saab in 1996. Why? Well the writer fails to mention that SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE like be associated with SUCCESSFUL BRANDS. Saab was a complete afterthought even by the time GM bought it. Lexus was aimed with rare precision from the start.

In the auto industry there is no TIME to **** up and try to fix it. Things are just to competitive.

Lexus is an AWFUL example to use as its focus has been amazing from day one. Lets look at other brands more resembling Saab.
1. Infiniti was pretty awful and turned it around. Sales are okay now but the products are vastly superior to any Saab. Even in the 1990s people preferred an Infiniti to a Saab.
2. Caddy went from FWD cars to mostly RWD cars and also had a resurgance.
3. We are seeing Buick doing well now and reinventing themselves.
4. Volvo is in trouble but we have seen a much better product and superior to Saab.
5. Lincoln has also reinvented itself two times and is doing better.
6. Acura has reinvented itself a couple times but has the luxury of a much larger loyal base (Honda) than Saab ever will have.

Lexus dominated reviews in the 1990s for the most part. I have said many many MANY times the 1990s DICTATED where brands are. It WAS THE MOST crucial time. Those brands with focus or re-invented themselves are clearly in front (BMW, Benz, Lexus). THose with their heads up their asses continue to fight for everything else (everyone else).

Its just ANOTHER way for ANOTHER person to crap on Lexus for being successful. If Lexus sucked and sold and Saab died, he has a point. Lexus is percieved as the best or one of the best in multiple areas.

Lexus didn't kill Saab. SAAB COMMITTED SUICIDE!!
 
Old 12-21-09, 05:32 PM
  #60  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,068
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by IS-SV
^^^ impressive Subie/snow blower pic! I only see snow like that my second home at Lake Tahoe but that's at 6400 feet.
That's just about what my blue Outback looked like (18" of measured snow at my place, with 2-3 foot drifts), except that the front of the car, facing the northeast wind, had snow completely drifted over the front end.....you could not see the front of the car at all; only the medium blue on the sides. The amount of snow from this storm was one of the classics here.

I didn't post images because I don't have a digital camera or the skills to download one.....yes, I know, it's one of my weaknesses)

I really had some fun with my Outback in the snow yesterday after I got it (and some of the neighbors) shoveled out. I took it out to get some lunch, on some untreated but moderately plowed roads. SLegacy99 is correct...the Subaru AWD systems are unreal.

One annoying thing, though....some snowy roads, when the snow gets packed down and freezes in ruts/humps, can be like driving on railroad ties.....just continual hard bumps. I took it slow to keep wear on the suspension/shocks down.


But, now, to clean the salt and dirt off...........and, of course, back on topic (Saab).
mmarshall is offline  


Quick Reply: Saab is down :(



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:46 PM.