MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

Fixed for you

The G Man

I know we have gone thru this a few times already, but let’s just do it again.

The MSRP form Edmunds for a 2010 S4 with prestige package is $54225. To get the same opinion in a 2010 BMW 335 xi, you would need the following options: M Sport Package, Premium Package, Navigation System, 6-Speed STEPTRONIC Automatic Transmission, Logic7 Sound System w/Surround Sound, BMW Assist w/Bluetooth Wireless Technology, Metallic Paint, Heated Front Seats, Comfort Access System, Split-Folding Rear Seats Including Ski Bag, iPod and USB Adapter, Anti-Theft Alarm and Satellite Radio. The total comes out to $57750 and the 335 doesnt even have the Double-Clutch Transmission. So the Audi S4 is actually the better buy.
If you go up to a BMW M3 sedan with the same options, its MSRP is $71000 and that is without the AWD system. If we add the price diff between a 335 and a 335xi which is $2000 to the price of the M3, that would bring the total up to $73000. Similarly, a 2008 RS4 with the primium package cost $74000.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

The problem is that since the A4 is a FWD car with optional AWD, the S4 (obviously) has to be AWD because of it's sporting intentions and horsepower. This factor alone makes the car more expensive than it's rivals and to people like me who live in the south, or those on the west coast, AWD is not a benefit and the car is unnecessarily expensive. In fact, I would rather not have it. While Audi mandates that you have AWD if you want to buy the S4, the 335i, IS 350, and G37 do not which allows them to be priced significantly lower. On top of that Audi nickel and dimes you for things like pearl paint which is ridiculous for a car like this.

If I build an IS 350 and a S4, similarly equipped, the Lexus comes to $42,580 and the Audi to $54,805. I have a really hard time justifying a $12,000 price difference especially when AWD doesn't mean anything to me.

If I build an ISF and an S4, similarly equipped, the Lexus comes to $62,560 and the Audi to $58,755 which represents a $4,000 difference.

Obviously the pricing for the S4 is more in line with that of the IS F. I rest my case.

The G Man

Hmmm, something tells me you have never drove a sport sedan with a performance version of AWD before.

While you may not want an AWD sport sedan, many owners out there do, it can actually improve handling. I am sure you have seen the performance numbers between a Acura TL with and with the SH-AWD system. Even if we take out the AWD option from the 335xi, that would only reduce it by $2000 which make it the same price as the S4.
The IS350 is hard to beat in terms of price, but like most things in life, you really get what you pay for, its just not the same quality.
Can you list the options of the comparison you made with the $62000 ISF and the $59000 S4, I am sure they dont have the same options.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I certainly do not disagree about the merits of AWD but the truth is that by not offering a RWD (or even FWD) version of the S4, Audi is alienating an important part of the market and has priced themselves away from direct competitors like the IS 350, G37, and even 335i. Here, even the majority of SUVs sold are 4x2 and I could probably count the IS 250AWDs that I have seen, or X 3 series, on one hand. There is just no need for the price, complexity, and weight unless you live in a region that calls for it, or you want it for a performance reason.

Also, the 335i is overpriced when you pack on options too...not just the S4

As for the IS F and S4 that I priced out:

IS F:
Nav and ML package

S4:
Prestige with 7 DCT
Pearl Effect Paint
Carbon Fiber Inlays
Audi Drive Select
Rear Side Airbags

primecut

iTrader: (1)

And what are some of those qualities that you speak of (Besides AWD, which can be had in the 250)?

Saying that Audi is a better buy than BMW doesn't say much. As you know, BMW is best known for nickel and diming for EVERYTHING and Audi is just taking cues from BMW's play book.

Car manufacturers are experts at the pricing/configuration game. The only way for Audi to justify the cost of the S4 is to package it in a way where their competitors will not be able to match perfectly. That way, it creates a value proposition that otherwise does not exist. By trying to build a 335 to be like the Audi... well that's exactly what Audi wants you to do.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

The three things that come to mind are the AWD, 7 DCT, and a bit more power. Still, I am not sure that those thre things justify a $12,000 price gap IMO.

Good post

mmarshall

Both the Camry and the FWD versions of the Fusion have been above average (or well-above-average) in reliability, acording to Consumer Reports. AWD Fusions have been average. The Camry Hybrid, as you note, is also well-above average in reliability.....the Fusion hybrid (which is FWD) hasn't been out long enough for reliability data. Some recent Camry V6s, though, had the well-known transmision issues.

In general, though, you have a point...it's hard (with some minor exceptions) to go wrong with a Camry, though I find the dash plastics and ***** poorly-done.

mmarshall

I agree the 335i is not cheap, but, IMO, is a better buy, dollar-for-dollar, than its more expensive M3 brother. The 335, with its twin-turbos, actually has slightly more low-end torque (though the M3 has much more high-end HP), and the 335 is much more comfortable on everyday streets, with a much better ride-handling balance. The M3, granted, is better on a track, with glass-smooth pavement. Not everyone agrees with me on that, but that's my impression after test-driving both cars.

IS-SV

Agreed, long-term reliability of the Fusion Hybrid is still TBD.

I did indicate my preference for the Camry Hybrid (loaded with lux equipment of course) because the Camry Hybrid and Lexus GS Hybrid are the only 2 hybrids that meet my finicky criteria for being both efficient and quality sport sedan-like.

IS-SV

That's expected and no surprise to the buyers that actually shop in this range of cars.

The IS350 vs. IS-F comparison dollar for dollar follows the same value argument, dollar-for-dollar. Because making the final leap to a low volume premium car with over 400 horsepower with the highest performance chassis and related hardware always involves a lot of extra money.

The G Man

I think you are still confusing AWD system that is design for snow and off road with one that is design for performance. All those AWD system you mention are not sport oriented, try driving a BMW vector AWD, Audi quattro with sport differential or an Acura SH-AWD and you will understand what I am saying to you.

How is Audi is alienating an important part of the market by using AWD to enhance performance?

I am still not sure why you are comparing a German sport sedan to a Japanese one, the German sort sedan will always be more expensive or as you call it, over priced, its the nature of the beast. While you are at it, you should include the Koreans too, all Lexus are over price when compare with Hyundai

I8ABMR

having the dodge ram 1500 on the list is strange. Just the name "dodge " sounds so ****ty. I looked it up and find that the ram is very highly regarded in the truck community but....... you are driving a "dodge". Dodge what??? dodge quality control standards on all of you other cars. Dodge and Chrysler are the least favorite of the American car companies in my book.

PlatLex

man i am not an audi fan (terrible reliability) but the 1 thing they do well is quattro. without that, audi has nothing at all. I don't really like the new s4 but i don't get how it's so much more expensive when its priced just like the bmw 335. i mean i don't know, it just comes with more standard options.

The G Man

And what do you based your relaibility rating of Audi upon? The Audis from 10 years ago or your friends or family who had an old Audi or two that was unreliable. Audi as a brand, have probably improve in reliability more than anyone else in this decade.