Automobile Magazine: 2010 All-Stars
12-23-09, 08:52 AM
#46
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Posts: n/a
Hmmm, something tells me you have never drove a sport sedan with a performance version of AWD before.
While you may not want an AWD sport sedan, many owners out there do, it can actually improve handling. I am sure you have seen the performance numbers between a Acura TL with and with the SH-AWD system. Even if we take out the AWD option from the 335xi, that would only reduce it by $2000 which make it the same price as the S4.
The IS350 is hard to beat in terms of price, but like most things in life, you really get what you pay for, its just not the same quality.
Can you list the options of the comparison you made with the $62000 ISF and the $59000 S4, I am sure they dont have the same options.
While you may not want an AWD sport sedan, many owners out there do, it can actually improve handling. I am sure you have seen the performance numbers between a Acura TL with and with the SH-AWD system. Even if we take out the AWD option from the 335xi, that would only reduce it by $2000 which make it the same price as the S4.
The IS350 is hard to beat in terms of price, but like most things in life, you really get what you pay for, its just not the same quality.
Can you list the options of the comparison you made with the $62000 ISF and the $59000 S4, I am sure they dont have the same options.
I like the S4, I like Audi, I think from 45k-50k its a good buy but over that price, its nuts.
And what are some of those qualities that you speak of (Besides AWD, which can be had in the 250)?
Saying that Audi is a better buy than BMW doesn't say much. As you know, BMW is best known for nickel and diming for EVERYTHING and Audi is just taking cues from BMW's play book.
Car manufacturers are experts at the pricing/configuration game. The only way for Audi to justify the cost of the S4 is to package it in a way where their competitors will not be able to match perfectly. That way, it creates a value proposition that otherwise does not exist. By trying to build a 335 to be like the Audi... well that's exactly what Audi wants you to do.
Saying that Audi is a better buy than BMW doesn't say much. As you know, BMW is best known for nickel and diming for EVERYTHING and Audi is just taking cues from BMW's play book.
Car manufacturers are experts at the pricing/configuration game. The only way for Audi to justify the cost of the S4 is to package it in a way where their competitors will not be able to match perfectly. That way, it creates a value proposition that otherwise does not exist. By trying to build a 335 to be like the Audi... well that's exactly what Audi wants you to do.
man i am not an audi fan (terrible reliability) but the 1 thing they do well is quattro. without that, audi has nothing at all. I don't really like the new s4 but i don't get how it's so much more expensive when its priced just like the bmw 335. i mean i don't know, it just comes with more standard options.
I would get a S4 over a 335 10 times out of 10 though.
12-23-09, 08:57 AM
#47
Lexus Fanatic
I have to disagree here somewhat. Audi does more things well than just Quattro AWD. Check out the paint jobs on all of their models and the interior trim quality on the A4, A5, A6, and A8 lines....even the A3 to some extent. Then, check out the 2.0T engine and S-Tronic gearbox. I think you will agree that everything I listed is first-rate. However, the reliability of Audi electronic components can be a problem....there you may have a point. Also, I personally don't like Audi's MMI......but that is a subjective matter. Some people do like it.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-23-09 at 09:01 AM.
12-23-09, 09:03 AM
#48
Lexus Fanatic
One system I also like (and that combines AWD with high fuel mileage) is the 3-electric-motor Toyota/Lexus hybrid-drive that places one electric motor with the gas engine and one at each rear wheel, though, of course, that system is expensive to produce.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-23-09 at 09:07 AM.
12-23-09, 10:23 AM
#49
Lexus Test Driver
I believe that is the system Lexus is using on the RX hybrid, it is suppose to be as good as mech AWD in the snow.
12-23-09, 11:09 AM
#50
No I have not, but I had a pretty good cab ride in Fusion Hybrid in SF in November. My preference is still the Camry Hybrid for the better exterior styling (a close relative in my wife's family owns one) and proven quality/resale/reliability, despite the huge insider Ford discounts I'm entitled to.
I think the new Fusion looks a lot better than both cars...and I mean a LOT better. The changes over the old Fusion make it look very European. I still prefer the Accord's interior though. Camry interior feels cheap to me...especially the Walmart alarm clock center console.
12-23-09, 03:26 PM
#51
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Something tells me Audi gets a PASS for being German. They build mostly FWD cars including a FWD A8. The S4 is a FWD car with AWD slapped on. We beat up Acura for doing this band aid, why not Audi? Surely if Lexus slapped AWD on a FWD ES and called it the ES-F, or ES sport, the internetz would blast such a car.
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but good call on audi! lol
12-23-09, 03:47 PM
#52
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Strange that everyone I know (-1) who has owned an Audi in the last 5 years has described a complete ECU failure at some point in the car's life. One person had the ECU quit while in motion on the freeway at 75 mph. The rest just refused to start one day. The one person I know whose Audi has not done this has a two year old car.
For inexplicable reasons, German engine management has proved to be less than reliable when compared to Japanese makers. Not to say anyone has a zero failure rate, but among the people I know with MB, BMW, and Audi cars; I've heard of ECU failures fairly regularly. Not so for the Japanese or American manufacturers.
And no, I don't believe in an inherent superiority in four wheel drive. Lap records at tracks around the world are still held by 2wd vehicles. Sure when the road is slick it never hurts to have drive on all four, but when traction is good the excess heft of the AWD gear just gets in the way of going fast. Surely that's a big part of why the Viper ACR laps the 'Ring more quickly than any four wheel drive vehicle including Godzilla.
For inexplicable reasons, German engine management has proved to be less than reliable when compared to Japanese makers. Not to say anyone has a zero failure rate, but among the people I know with MB, BMW, and Audi cars; I've heard of ECU failures fairly regularly. Not so for the Japanese or American manufacturers.
And no, I don't believe in an inherent superiority in four wheel drive. Lap records at tracks around the world are still held by 2wd vehicles. Sure when the road is slick it never hurts to have drive on all four, but when traction is good the excess heft of the AWD gear just gets in the way of going fast. Surely that's a big part of why the Viper ACR laps the 'Ring more quickly than any four wheel drive vehicle including Godzilla.
12-23-09, 07:29 PM
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'm no Ford fan but the Camry has to be the ugliest car in its class. There is no design or styling to begin with....it's just a plastic looking blob of a car. The 2nd ugliest car is the Accord which is way overstyled with no cohesive themes.
I think the new Fusion looks a lot better than both cars...and I mean a LOT better. The changes over the old Fusion make it look very European. I still prefer the Accord's interior though. Camry interior feels cheap to me...especially the Walmart alarm clock center console.
I think the new Fusion looks a lot better than both cars...and I mean a LOT better. The changes over the old Fusion make it look very European. I still prefer the Accord's interior though. Camry interior feels cheap to me...especially the Walmart alarm clock center console.
I do agree that the Fusion with the facelift looks pretty fantastic, I am a huge fan of it.
I still don't get this Camry interior is cheap thing.
Its no Lexus but its not as some people make it out to be.
12-24-09, 11:38 AM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
12-28-09, 09:17 AM
#58
Lexus Fanatic
12-28-09, 09:26 AM
#60
Lexus Fanatic
I had a momentary lapse, and confused the NAV models with the non-NAV, automatic-climate-control ones. (the XLE, of course, has the automatic system).