Toyota keeping the lid on more issues?
12-25-09, 10:26 AM
#1
Toyota keeping the lid on more issues?
Originally Posted by LA Times
During a routine test on its Sienna minivan in April 2003, Toyota Motor Corp. engineers discovered that a plastic panel could come loose and cause the gas pedal to stick, potentially making the vehicle accelerate out of control.
The automaker redesigned the part and by that June every 2004 model year Sienna off the assembly line came with the new panel. Toyota did not notify tens of thousands of people who had already bought vans with the old panel, however.
It wasn't until U.S. safety officials opened an investigation last year that Toyota acknowledged in a letter to regulators that the part could come loose and "lead to unwanted or sudden acceleration."
In January, nearly six years after discovering the potential hazard, the automaker recalled 26,501 vans made with the old panel.
In a statement to The Times, Toyota said that there was no defect in the Sienna and that "a safety recall was not deemed necessary" when it discovered the problem in 2003. The company called the replacement part "an additional safety measure."
A peerless reputation for quality and safety has helped Toyota become the world's largest automaker. But even as its sales have soared, the company has delayed recalls, kept a tight lid on disclosure of potential problems and attempted to blame human error in cases where owners claimed vehicle defects.
The automaker's handling of safety issues has come under scrutiny in recent months because of incidents of sudden acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles, which The Times has reported were involved in accidents causing 19 fatalities since 2001, more deaths from that problem than all other automakers combined.
After Toyota this fall announced its biggest recall to address the sudden-acceleration problem, it insisted publicly that no defect existed. That drew a rare public rebuke from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which chastised the automaker for making "inaccurate and misleading statements."
In the wake of Toyota's announcement of the massive recall, The Times examined some of the ways the automaker has dealt with safety problems in recent years and found that:
* The automaker knew of a dangerous steering defect in vehicles including the 4Runner sport utility vehicle for years before issuing a recall in Japan in 2004. But it told regulators no recall was necessary in the U.S., despite having received dozens of complaints from drivers. Toyota said a subsequent investigation led it to order a U.S. recall in 2005.
* Toyota has paid cash settlements to people who say their vehicles have raced out of control, sometimes causing serious accidents, according to consumers and their attorneys. Other motorists who complained of acceleration problems with their vehicles have received buybacks under lemon laws.
* Although the sudden acceleration issue erupted publicly only in recent months, it has been festering for nearly a decade. A computerized search of NHTSA records by The Times has found Toyota issued eight previous recalls related to unintended acceleration since 2000, more than any other automaker.
* A former Toyota lawyer who handled safety litigation has sued the automaker, accusing it of engaging in a "calculated conspiracy to prevent the disclosure of damaging evidence" as part of a scheme to "prevent evidence of its vehicles' structural shortcomings from becoming known" to plaintiffs lawyers, courts, NHTSA and the public.
As a result, plaintiffs attorneys are considering reopening dozens of product-liability suits against the automaker.
Toyota has called the allegations of the attorney, Dimitrios Biller, "both misleading and inaccurate" and noted that he is also suing another former employer. The company said it had "acted appropriately in product liability cases and in all reporting to federal safety regulators."
In a written statement to The Times, Toyota said that it strove to keep government officials and consumers informed about potential safety problems with its vehicles, which it says are tested to meet or exceed federal standards.
"Toyota has absolutely not minimized public awareness of any defect or issue with respect to its vehicles," the company said.
Currently, Toyota is a defendant in at least 10 lawsuits alleging unintended acceleration that caused five fatalities and four injuries. Two of those suits are seeking class-action status.
But few, if any, sudden-acceleration cases ever make it to trial, according to attorneys who handle such cases.
After a 2007 crash of a Camry that accelerated out of control for 20 miles before killing the driver of another car in San Jose, Toyota was sued by members of the victim's family. Their attorney, Louis Franecke, said the automaker "didn't want to go to trial," and paid them a seven-figure sum in exchange for dropping the case and signing a non-disclosure form.
In an interview, Guadalupe Gomez, the driver of the runaway Camry, said he also signed a confidentiality agreement and received a settlement from Toyota. He was initially arrested on suspicion of manslaughter for causing the crash, but charges were never filed.
By settling, Toyota has managed to keep potentially damaging information out of the public eye, said Raymond Paul Johnson, a Los Angeles attorney who said he had settled four sudden-acceleration cases with the automaker.
"It's just a matter of risk control for them," Johnson said.
Toyota said that although it does not comment on individual cases, it "has resolved and will continue to resolve matters with litigants through confidential settlement when it is in both parties' interests to do so."
The majority of unintended acceleration incidents don't end up in accidents. But even after minor incidents, some consumers have obtained deals under which their cars were repurchased on favorable terms.
Tim Marks, a small businessman in Camden, Ark., parked his daughter's 2006 Lexus IS 250 in front of the dealership last year and said his family would never drive it again after experiencing four sudden-acceleration events.
"They told my daughter she was texting while driving and wasn't paying attention," Marks recalled. "She is a 95-pound, little itty-bitty thing, but she was fixing to twist off on that man."
The vehicle was bought back and the title branded as a lemon, according to vehicle registration records. It was later registered in Florida, suggesting that the dealer resold it.
Much the same thing happened to Joan Marschall, a Visalia resident whose 2003 Camry accelerated on its own three times before she complained.
"I took it to the dealer and said I wouldn't drive it again," Marschall recalled. "I said I don't care if you tell me the computer says nothing happened. I know it did."
Marschall received a lemon buyback too. Registration records show the car was transferred to a new owner in Southern California.
Toyota said it had no policy to repurchase vehicles from customers complaining about sudden acceleration, though its dealers may act on their own to "preserve goodwill."
Some motorists who have confronted safety issues said the automaker has hidden information from them.
In January, Jeffrey Pepski, a financial consultant in suburban Minneapolis, took his 2007 Lexus ES 350 to the dealer after it accelerated out of control on a Twin Cities freeway, reaching 80 miles per hour.
Toyota sent an expert to examine the car Feb. 3 and download electronic data stored on the vehicle's computers. When Pepski asked for a copy of the data, he was refused.
"They said it was proprietary," Pepski recalled.
He filed a defect petition with NHTSA, and the dealer allowed Pepski to trade in the sedan for a sport utility vehicle. The Lexus ES was not branded a lemon and was resold in Minnesota, records show.
How Toyota handles requests like Pepski's has frustrated investigators and vehicle owners who want to get information contained on computers in their vehicles.
Nearly all new cars today contain an event data recorder, often called a black box, that can record several seconds of key information when accidents occur or in other circumstances.
According to Toyota, its black boxes can capture vehicle speed, engine speed, brake pedal application, accelerator pedal position and seat belt usage, among other things. That data, experts say, could be crucial to investigating causes of sudden acceleration.
Unlike manufacturers such as General Motors Co. and Ford Motor Co., Toyota's data recorders are extremely difficult for non-Toyota personnel to read, said W.R. "Rusty" Haight, a black-box expert who owns a San Diego collision investigation company.
Toyota says it has only one device in the U.S. that can read the data. An operating manual for the device, a copy of which was reviewed by The Times, indicates that it takes two passwords to operate.
On its website, Toyota says that it "will not honor EDR readout requests from private individuals or their attorneys," because its device is a prototype.
On some safety issues, Toyota has little choice but to go public.
Sudden acceleration didn't become a national issue for the automaker until this fall, when it announced its largest recall shortly after a 2009 Lexus ES accelerated out of control and crashed in San Diego County, killing an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer along with his wife, daughter and brother-in-law.
In a 5:30 a.m. conference call the day before Thanksgiving, Toyota detailed remedies to prevent acceleration problems it has blamed on gas pedals trapped by floor mats. Toyota will replace or modify pedals, replace floor mats, modify floor well padding and add new safety software to seven models, representing 4.26 million cars and trucks.
The campaign follows eight recalls in the U.S. over the last decade to fix problems that in the automaker's own words could cause sudden acceleration or faulty throttle system operation, Times research shows.
Two years ago, a NHTSA investigation found that the gas pedal in Camry and Lexus ES sedans could be trapped by rubber all-weather floor mats -- the same problem being addressed in the current recall. Toyota responded by recalling 55,000 of the vehicles, but only enlarged a warning label on the underside of the mat and on its packaging.
In 2005, Toyota recalled 3,567 Lexus IS 250 sedans because the gas pedal had a propensity to stick on a floor pad. In 2006, it recalled 367,594 Highlander and Lexus RX SUVs after receiving complaints that an interior cover could interfere with the accelerator pedal, keeping it depressed.
All those followed a 2003 recall in Canada of 408 Celicas, also for floor mat interference with the accelerator pedal.
In the ongoing Sienna recall, Toyota is replacing a hard-plastic trim panel over the center console. In its statement to The Times, the automaker said that pedal entrapment could only be caused in the event of a missing attachment clip, which might not be replaced after service work.
Toyota said it issued the recall voluntarily after a single complaint to NHTSA prompted an investigation by the agency. "In response to Toyota's voluntary campaign, regulators closed the investigation," the company said.
NHTSA officials did not respond to a written question about the recall and the agency's oversight of the matter.
The Sienna incident wasn't the only time that Toyota issued a recall long after discovering a problem.
In 1994, NHTSA slapped Toyota with a $250,000 fine, at the time the agency's second-largest, for providing misleading information about a fuel leak in Land Cruisers and waiting two years to undertake a recall to fix the problem. Toyota acknowledged that it failed to conduct a timely recall but denied withholding information from the agency.
A decade later, Toyota recalled about 330,000 vehicles in Japan after a 2004 crash there -- caused by a broken steering linkage -- seriously injured five people. The vehicle in the accident, a Hilux Surf, was sold in the U.S. as the 4Runner. Other truck models sold here, including the Toyota 4x4 and T100 pickups, also used the same linkage, a steering relay rod.
Despite that, the company told NHTSA in an October 2004 letter that it would not conduct a U.S. recall because it had not received information here indicating a problem with the part.
Documents entered in four lawsuits filed in Los Angeles this year, however, show that Toyota had received numerous consumer complaints dating from 2000 and had replaced dozens of the parts under warranty. The documents also show that Japanese police, in an investigation of the defect, said that Toyota employees had known about the problem since 1992 and should have initiated a recall immediately.
In September 2005, Toyota recalled nearly 1 million vehicles in the U.S. to replace the part, its second-largest campaign.
It came too late for Zackary Audulewicz of Ila, Ga., relatives said. The 20-year-old was driving his Toyota 4x4 to work in August 2003 when the pickup lost control. A witness said she heard a pop and saw a spark just before the pickup careened off the road, flipped into the air and rolled on its roof. Audulewicz was killed instantly.
"I feel like they knew about the problem long before the recall," said Don Audulewicz, Zackary's father and one of the plaintiffs in the suits. "I can't understand why whoever was making decisions at Toyota would do that."
Toyota declined to discuss the case, citing its policy not to comment on pending litigation. In a written statement, Toyota explained that its own investigation of the defective steering component part led it to broaden the recall to include the T100 truck.
On several occasions in the last decade, Toyota has been admonished by judges for failing to provide evidence. In 2000, for example, a Missouri state judge sanctioned it for failing to disclose results of five rear-impact tests of Corollas "despite numerous discovery requests." He ordered a new trial.
In 2007, California's Court of Appeal found that "Toyota had intentionally violated two orders compelling discovery" of stability test results in a case involving a Toyota-made forklift that tipped over and killed a worker. The court slapped Toyota with a $138,984.33 sanction and ordered a new trial. Toyota, which denied wrongdoing, ultimately settled the case.
E. Todd Tracy, a Texas attorney with 22 years of experience litigating against automakers, believes that Toyota's issues with legal discovery run far deeper than a few sanctions.
Over the last three months, he has moved to reopen 17 lawsuits against the automaker related to vehicle rollovers because he now believes Toyota routinely hid information in those cases.
His argument rests on four boxes of documents submitted by Biller, the former Toyota attorney. The contents have not yet been revealed, but Tracy believes they prove that Toyota hid crucial information about rollovers in those lawsuits.
"This is clearly information that Toyota does not want the public to see," Tracy said. "For years, they were the gold standard, but right now they have more problems than they know what to do with."
ken.bensinger@latimes.com
ralph.vartabedian@
latimes.com
Times staff writers Doug Smith and Thomas Suh Lauder contributed to this report.
The automaker redesigned the part and by that June every 2004 model year Sienna off the assembly line came with the new panel. Toyota did not notify tens of thousands of people who had already bought vans with the old panel, however.
It wasn't until U.S. safety officials opened an investigation last year that Toyota acknowledged in a letter to regulators that the part could come loose and "lead to unwanted or sudden acceleration."
In January, nearly six years after discovering the potential hazard, the automaker recalled 26,501 vans made with the old panel.
In a statement to The Times, Toyota said that there was no defect in the Sienna and that "a safety recall was not deemed necessary" when it discovered the problem in 2003. The company called the replacement part "an additional safety measure."
A peerless reputation for quality and safety has helped Toyota become the world's largest automaker. But even as its sales have soared, the company has delayed recalls, kept a tight lid on disclosure of potential problems and attempted to blame human error in cases where owners claimed vehicle defects.
The automaker's handling of safety issues has come under scrutiny in recent months because of incidents of sudden acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles, which The Times has reported were involved in accidents causing 19 fatalities since 2001, more deaths from that problem than all other automakers combined.
After Toyota this fall announced its biggest recall to address the sudden-acceleration problem, it insisted publicly that no defect existed. That drew a rare public rebuke from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which chastised the automaker for making "inaccurate and misleading statements."
In the wake of Toyota's announcement of the massive recall, The Times examined some of the ways the automaker has dealt with safety problems in recent years and found that:
* The automaker knew of a dangerous steering defect in vehicles including the 4Runner sport utility vehicle for years before issuing a recall in Japan in 2004. But it told regulators no recall was necessary in the U.S., despite having received dozens of complaints from drivers. Toyota said a subsequent investigation led it to order a U.S. recall in 2005.
* Toyota has paid cash settlements to people who say their vehicles have raced out of control, sometimes causing serious accidents, according to consumers and their attorneys. Other motorists who complained of acceleration problems with their vehicles have received buybacks under lemon laws.
* Although the sudden acceleration issue erupted publicly only in recent months, it has been festering for nearly a decade. A computerized search of NHTSA records by The Times has found Toyota issued eight previous recalls related to unintended acceleration since 2000, more than any other automaker.
* A former Toyota lawyer who handled safety litigation has sued the automaker, accusing it of engaging in a "calculated conspiracy to prevent the disclosure of damaging evidence" as part of a scheme to "prevent evidence of its vehicles' structural shortcomings from becoming known" to plaintiffs lawyers, courts, NHTSA and the public.
As a result, plaintiffs attorneys are considering reopening dozens of product-liability suits against the automaker.
Toyota has called the allegations of the attorney, Dimitrios Biller, "both misleading and inaccurate" and noted that he is also suing another former employer. The company said it had "acted appropriately in product liability cases and in all reporting to federal safety regulators."
In a written statement to The Times, Toyota said that it strove to keep government officials and consumers informed about potential safety problems with its vehicles, which it says are tested to meet or exceed federal standards.
"Toyota has absolutely not minimized public awareness of any defect or issue with respect to its vehicles," the company said.
Currently, Toyota is a defendant in at least 10 lawsuits alleging unintended acceleration that caused five fatalities and four injuries. Two of those suits are seeking class-action status.
But few, if any, sudden-acceleration cases ever make it to trial, according to attorneys who handle such cases.
After a 2007 crash of a Camry that accelerated out of control for 20 miles before killing the driver of another car in San Jose, Toyota was sued by members of the victim's family. Their attorney, Louis Franecke, said the automaker "didn't want to go to trial," and paid them a seven-figure sum in exchange for dropping the case and signing a non-disclosure form.
In an interview, Guadalupe Gomez, the driver of the runaway Camry, said he also signed a confidentiality agreement and received a settlement from Toyota. He was initially arrested on suspicion of manslaughter for causing the crash, but charges were never filed.
By settling, Toyota has managed to keep potentially damaging information out of the public eye, said Raymond Paul Johnson, a Los Angeles attorney who said he had settled four sudden-acceleration cases with the automaker.
"It's just a matter of risk control for them," Johnson said.
Toyota said that although it does not comment on individual cases, it "has resolved and will continue to resolve matters with litigants through confidential settlement when it is in both parties' interests to do so."
The majority of unintended acceleration incidents don't end up in accidents. But even after minor incidents, some consumers have obtained deals under which their cars were repurchased on favorable terms.
Tim Marks, a small businessman in Camden, Ark., parked his daughter's 2006 Lexus IS 250 in front of the dealership last year and said his family would never drive it again after experiencing four sudden-acceleration events.
"They told my daughter she was texting while driving and wasn't paying attention," Marks recalled. "She is a 95-pound, little itty-bitty thing, but she was fixing to twist off on that man."
The vehicle was bought back and the title branded as a lemon, according to vehicle registration records. It was later registered in Florida, suggesting that the dealer resold it.
Much the same thing happened to Joan Marschall, a Visalia resident whose 2003 Camry accelerated on its own three times before she complained.
"I took it to the dealer and said I wouldn't drive it again," Marschall recalled. "I said I don't care if you tell me the computer says nothing happened. I know it did."
Marschall received a lemon buyback too. Registration records show the car was transferred to a new owner in Southern California.
Toyota said it had no policy to repurchase vehicles from customers complaining about sudden acceleration, though its dealers may act on their own to "preserve goodwill."
Some motorists who have confronted safety issues said the automaker has hidden information from them.
In January, Jeffrey Pepski, a financial consultant in suburban Minneapolis, took his 2007 Lexus ES 350 to the dealer after it accelerated out of control on a Twin Cities freeway, reaching 80 miles per hour.
Toyota sent an expert to examine the car Feb. 3 and download electronic data stored on the vehicle's computers. When Pepski asked for a copy of the data, he was refused.
"They said it was proprietary," Pepski recalled.
He filed a defect petition with NHTSA, and the dealer allowed Pepski to trade in the sedan for a sport utility vehicle. The Lexus ES was not branded a lemon and was resold in Minnesota, records show.
How Toyota handles requests like Pepski's has frustrated investigators and vehicle owners who want to get information contained on computers in their vehicles.
Nearly all new cars today contain an event data recorder, often called a black box, that can record several seconds of key information when accidents occur or in other circumstances.
According to Toyota, its black boxes can capture vehicle speed, engine speed, brake pedal application, accelerator pedal position and seat belt usage, among other things. That data, experts say, could be crucial to investigating causes of sudden acceleration.
Unlike manufacturers such as General Motors Co. and Ford Motor Co., Toyota's data recorders are extremely difficult for non-Toyota personnel to read, said W.R. "Rusty" Haight, a black-box expert who owns a San Diego collision investigation company.
Toyota says it has only one device in the U.S. that can read the data. An operating manual for the device, a copy of which was reviewed by The Times, indicates that it takes two passwords to operate.
On its website, Toyota says that it "will not honor EDR readout requests from private individuals or their attorneys," because its device is a prototype.
On some safety issues, Toyota has little choice but to go public.
Sudden acceleration didn't become a national issue for the automaker until this fall, when it announced its largest recall shortly after a 2009 Lexus ES accelerated out of control and crashed in San Diego County, killing an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer along with his wife, daughter and brother-in-law.
In a 5:30 a.m. conference call the day before Thanksgiving, Toyota detailed remedies to prevent acceleration problems it has blamed on gas pedals trapped by floor mats. Toyota will replace or modify pedals, replace floor mats, modify floor well padding and add new safety software to seven models, representing 4.26 million cars and trucks.
The campaign follows eight recalls in the U.S. over the last decade to fix problems that in the automaker's own words could cause sudden acceleration or faulty throttle system operation, Times research shows.
Two years ago, a NHTSA investigation found that the gas pedal in Camry and Lexus ES sedans could be trapped by rubber all-weather floor mats -- the same problem being addressed in the current recall. Toyota responded by recalling 55,000 of the vehicles, but only enlarged a warning label on the underside of the mat and on its packaging.
In 2005, Toyota recalled 3,567 Lexus IS 250 sedans because the gas pedal had a propensity to stick on a floor pad. In 2006, it recalled 367,594 Highlander and Lexus RX SUVs after receiving complaints that an interior cover could interfere with the accelerator pedal, keeping it depressed.
All those followed a 2003 recall in Canada of 408 Celicas, also for floor mat interference with the accelerator pedal.
In the ongoing Sienna recall, Toyota is replacing a hard-plastic trim panel over the center console. In its statement to The Times, the automaker said that pedal entrapment could only be caused in the event of a missing attachment clip, which might not be replaced after service work.
Toyota said it issued the recall voluntarily after a single complaint to NHTSA prompted an investigation by the agency. "In response to Toyota's voluntary campaign, regulators closed the investigation," the company said.
NHTSA officials did not respond to a written question about the recall and the agency's oversight of the matter.
The Sienna incident wasn't the only time that Toyota issued a recall long after discovering a problem.
In 1994, NHTSA slapped Toyota with a $250,000 fine, at the time the agency's second-largest, for providing misleading information about a fuel leak in Land Cruisers and waiting two years to undertake a recall to fix the problem. Toyota acknowledged that it failed to conduct a timely recall but denied withholding information from the agency.
A decade later, Toyota recalled about 330,000 vehicles in Japan after a 2004 crash there -- caused by a broken steering linkage -- seriously injured five people. The vehicle in the accident, a Hilux Surf, was sold in the U.S. as the 4Runner. Other truck models sold here, including the Toyota 4x4 and T100 pickups, also used the same linkage, a steering relay rod.
Despite that, the company told NHTSA in an October 2004 letter that it would not conduct a U.S. recall because it had not received information here indicating a problem with the part.
Documents entered in four lawsuits filed in Los Angeles this year, however, show that Toyota had received numerous consumer complaints dating from 2000 and had replaced dozens of the parts under warranty. The documents also show that Japanese police, in an investigation of the defect, said that Toyota employees had known about the problem since 1992 and should have initiated a recall immediately.
In September 2005, Toyota recalled nearly 1 million vehicles in the U.S. to replace the part, its second-largest campaign.
It came too late for Zackary Audulewicz of Ila, Ga., relatives said. The 20-year-old was driving his Toyota 4x4 to work in August 2003 when the pickup lost control. A witness said she heard a pop and saw a spark just before the pickup careened off the road, flipped into the air and rolled on its roof. Audulewicz was killed instantly.
"I feel like they knew about the problem long before the recall," said Don Audulewicz, Zackary's father and one of the plaintiffs in the suits. "I can't understand why whoever was making decisions at Toyota would do that."
Toyota declined to discuss the case, citing its policy not to comment on pending litigation. In a written statement, Toyota explained that its own investigation of the defective steering component part led it to broaden the recall to include the T100 truck.
On several occasions in the last decade, Toyota has been admonished by judges for failing to provide evidence. In 2000, for example, a Missouri state judge sanctioned it for failing to disclose results of five rear-impact tests of Corollas "despite numerous discovery requests." He ordered a new trial.
In 2007, California's Court of Appeal found that "Toyota had intentionally violated two orders compelling discovery" of stability test results in a case involving a Toyota-made forklift that tipped over and killed a worker. The court slapped Toyota with a $138,984.33 sanction and ordered a new trial. Toyota, which denied wrongdoing, ultimately settled the case.
E. Todd Tracy, a Texas attorney with 22 years of experience litigating against automakers, believes that Toyota's issues with legal discovery run far deeper than a few sanctions.
Over the last three months, he has moved to reopen 17 lawsuits against the automaker related to vehicle rollovers because he now believes Toyota routinely hid information in those cases.
His argument rests on four boxes of documents submitted by Biller, the former Toyota attorney. The contents have not yet been revealed, but Tracy believes they prove that Toyota hid crucial information about rollovers in those lawsuits.
"This is clearly information that Toyota does not want the public to see," Tracy said. "For years, they were the gold standard, but right now they have more problems than they know what to do with."
ken.bensinger@latimes.com
ralph.vartabedian@
latimes.com
Times staff writers Doug Smith and Thomas Suh Lauder contributed to this report.
Hi My name is Jack:
I'm a recall coordinator. My job is to apply the formula.
A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 miles per hour. The rear differential locks up.
The car crushes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now: do we initiate a recall?
Take the number of vehicles in the field (A), multiply it by the probable rate of failure (B), then multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement (C). A times B times C equals X...
.........................If X is less that the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
12-25-09, 10:42 AM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
very interesting. I wouldnt put much past any corporation. It it will be interesting to see how things materialize over the next year. 2010 is a whole new year
love the cliffs 
12-25-09, 02:07 PM
#4
Lexus Champion
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No different then when GM or Ford where on top, you could not turn around without reading something bad about the company, cars or a another recall, when your on top your everyone's target.
Every company ends up killing several people, Im sure their is more to the story, but we just hear the tail end not the whole story
Read the entire thing, never realized that 19 people where killed by Toyota, thats more then all other auto makers combined
Every company ends up killing several people, Im sure their is more to the story, but we just hear the tail end not the whole story
Read the entire thing, never realized that 19 people where killed by Toyota, thats more then all other auto makers combined
Last edited by <VENOM>; 12-25-09 at 02:29 PM.
12-25-09, 03:38 PM
#5
journalists looking at TSB's, bad incoming press coverage... from forklifts to '94 case... there isnt more of these? 15 years and how many vehicles sold? 15 million? What is funny is that LA Times has been running series of reports on Toyotas, which all tried to tie in drive-by-wire to the trapped accelelator pedals, trying to insinuate how it is not trapped accelelators but some much biger DBW issue that is being covered up (while Toyota admits to mat issue only), and now they do 180 turn and it is stuck accelelator caused by mats and apperantly toyota is covering that ;-).
12-25-09, 03:48 PM
#6
Lexus Fanatic
During a routine test on its Sienna minivan in April 2003, Toyota Motor Corp. engineers discovered that a plastic panel could come loose and cause the gas pedal to stick, potentially making the vehicle accelerate out of control.
In the ongoing Sienna recall, Toyota is replacing a hard-plastic trim panel over the center console. In its statement to The Times, the automaker said that pedal entrapment could only be caused in the event of a missing attachment clip, which might not be replaced after service work.
12-25-09, 08:26 PM
#7
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Right there is one of the obvious problems........cheap, flimsy plastic parts. Those of you who read my reviews and posts know that I have been critical of a number of Toyota interior-plastic trim pieces and hardware. In general, the quality of Toyota interiors has been going downhill for almost 10 years now....starting around 2000 or so, though there has been some improvement lately in a few models.
in fact, who does the initial post remind you of, same thing.
toyota may have deep pockets and excellent manufacturing talent, but its STRATEGY has been heading for a cliff for some time (cheapened products, boring designs, more and more recalls), even as sales climbed strongly for a few years there.
now they're trying to address the boring part, but we'll see how the rest of it goes in the face of fiercer competition than ever and an exchange rate that's killing them.
Last edited by bitkahuna; 12-26-09 at 07:58 AM.
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12-26-09, 06:46 AM
#8
I was actually told to read the Toyota 6σ books, as they were the first "mechanical" type manufacturing center to grasp the entire aspect (although Motorola) invented it. Now they're just another production "company".
http://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Way-Jef...1838629&sr=8-2
http://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Product...838629&sr=8-16
http://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Product...838650&sr=8-20
and
http://www.amazon.com/Toyotas-Supply...838650&sr=8-25
After reading the first book the way they've been handling their safety issues seem questionable. Just the principles themselves.
http://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Way-Jef...1838629&sr=8-2
http://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Product...838629&sr=8-16
http://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Product...838650&sr=8-20
and
http://www.amazon.com/Toyotas-Supply...838650&sr=8-25
After reading the first book the way they've been handling their safety issues seem questionable. Just the principles themselves.
12-26-09, 09:29 AM
#9
Right there is one of the obvious problems........cheap, flimsy plastic parts. Those of you who read my reviews and posts know that I have been critical of a number of Toyota interior-plastic trim pieces and hardware. In general, the quality of Toyota interiors has been going downhill for almost 10 years now....starting around 2000 or so, though there has been some improvement lately in a few models.
That has nothing to do with your perceived notion of cheap plastics, as lower panel plastic next to your gas pedal has always been the cheapest one possible, in every car.
What you are talking about is above dash plastics, upper door trim, etc, which has nothing to do what was written there. I am Toyota has many faults, and I know a lot of them, but lets not invent new ones.
12-26-09, 06:54 PM
#11
Lexus Fanatic
What I have actually seen and felt...that's what.
Your opinions noted and respected, spwolf, but I stand by my statement. Several Toyota models have cheap, poorly-done plastics and *****. They may meet your definiton of nice, but, to me they feel flimsy and wobbly....especially some of the dash *****. And, my opinion is not alone by any means.
Toyotas are not alone in that regard either. I note the same in some Mitsubishi and Dodge/Chrysler products.
That's true to some extent....but what's good for the goose is often good for the gander too. Toyota interior parts, in general, have been getting lighter and cheaper-feeling for some years now....both upper and lower-case. Honda, too, is now using some lighter-weight interior parts/trim, but somehow still manages to keep them more solid-feeling.
No vehicle is perfect, but Toyota can do better.....the past has proven that. I would not make that statement if they had not done such a good job for so long. It was the same way with GM.....they did some nice stuff at one time, and there was little excuse for their downfall into junk in the 1980's.
I'm actually on Toyota's side on this one, even though a 250K fine is nothing for a huge company like Toyota. NHTSA didn't have to wait for "information" from Toyota. If the agency gets enough complaints from owners (and there is an official agency hot line to report them) they can institute and order a recall on their own, regardless of Toyota's action (or inaction). The fact that Toyota did not order a recall on its own is not a necessarily cause for a fine............NHTSA cannot, IMO, blame Toyota for the fact that the agency itself didn't excercise its own authority and issue a recall.
That actually says that if mechanic performing work on the car, did not install attachment clip when he removed and put back same part...In fact, Toyotas are easiest cars to work with because you can relativly easily take out all the plastics and they are meant to be put back in place without issues. If that is cheap, i like that cheapness. I used to own alarm installation shop, and Toyotas were by far easiest to work with (during well done alarm installation you have to remove almost half of the interior plastic in specific areas, and we were one of the first shops in the world to install alarm to Prius).
That has nothing to do with your perceived notion of cheap plastics, as lower panel plastic next to your gas pedal has always been the cheapest one possible, in every car.
That has nothing to do with your perceived notion of cheap plastics, as lower panel plastic next to your gas pedal has always been the cheapest one possible, in every car.
Toyotas are not alone in that regard either. I note the same in some Mitsubishi and Dodge/Chrysler products.
What you are talking about is above dash plastics, upper door trim, etc, which has nothing to do what was written there.
I am Toyota has many faults, and I know a lot of them, but lets not invent new ones.
In 1994, NHTSA slapped Toyota with a $250,000 fine, at the time the agency's second-largest, for providing misleading information about a fuel leak in Land Cruisers and waiting two years to undertake a recall to fix the problem. Toyota acknowledged that it failed to conduct a timely recall but denied withholding information from the agency.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-26-09 at 07:08 PM.
12-26-09, 09:08 PM
#12
mmarshal, you are talking about ***** for the radio in Camry, article is writing about plastic panels next to the gas pedal. Very much missing the point here.
And when on that topic, i have pretty good explanation why what you are talking about is called perception of quality (when you feel, touch interior plastics, etc).
I have had 2003 Corolla TS and now 2007 Auris, both european models of course. 2003 Corolla hatch has been known for best interior quality at the time with soft plastics everywhere. 2007 is widely known for having hard plastics on the dash.
When mags now remember 2003 Corolla hatch, they talk about bullet proof quality, and when they talk about Auris, they feel as quality of interior has gone down, even if interior is much better looking (Auris has pretty modern and interesting interior).
So pretty much it is very noticable, and it is something you would comment about as well. Keep in mind we are talking about hatch models, as current Corolla for Europe (not Auris), has soft plastics in interior. Auris was specifically designed for Euro market, has completly different interior from Corolla Sedan, and lower price as well.
However my experieces as owner - 2 years with both cars, are completly opposite. Corolla sure had soft plastics, but there were rattles and squeaks everywhere. I have padded half of the interior and then gave up, since i could not win. Not only that, its soft plastics used to separate between top of the dash and radio, creating space big enough for my big fingers to fit in (1-1.5 inches wide, 5 inches long).
Auris on the other hand, while widely regarder as having poor interior quality, squeaks only if you hit its plastics with your hand, and you dont hear bumps at all, let alone something separating somewhere.
So while perception of quality might be worse, in reality, Auris has higher quality interior than old Corolla, something that goes against quick reviews and quick judgements.
And when on that topic, i have pretty good explanation why what you are talking about is called perception of quality (when you feel, touch interior plastics, etc).
I have had 2003 Corolla TS and now 2007 Auris, both european models of course. 2003 Corolla hatch has been known for best interior quality at the time with soft plastics everywhere. 2007 is widely known for having hard plastics on the dash.
When mags now remember 2003 Corolla hatch, they talk about bullet proof quality, and when they talk about Auris, they feel as quality of interior has gone down, even if interior is much better looking (Auris has pretty modern and interesting interior).
So pretty much it is very noticable, and it is something you would comment about as well. Keep in mind we are talking about hatch models, as current Corolla for Europe (not Auris), has soft plastics in interior. Auris was specifically designed for Euro market, has completly different interior from Corolla Sedan, and lower price as well.
However my experieces as owner - 2 years with both cars, are completly opposite. Corolla sure had soft plastics, but there were rattles and squeaks everywhere. I have padded half of the interior and then gave up, since i could not win. Not only that, its soft plastics used to separate between top of the dash and radio, creating space big enough for my big fingers to fit in (1-1.5 inches wide, 5 inches long).
Auris on the other hand, while widely regarder as having poor interior quality, squeaks only if you hit its plastics with your hand, and you dont hear bumps at all, let alone something separating somewhere.
So while perception of quality might be worse, in reality, Auris has higher quality interior than old Corolla, something that goes against quick reviews and quick judgements.
12-26-09, 11:00 PM
#13
Lexus Test Driver
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sad thing is that many people still think toyota is bulletproof. my parents for ex. would never question the quality of toyota. it's built in their brains. and they don't read autoblogs, so they will never know what's really going on with toyota.
toyota better put their acts together or it will bite their *** very soon.
toyota better put their acts together or it will bite their *** very soon.
12-26-09, 11:50 PM
#14
Lexus Fanatic
looks like even more issues could be brewing for toyota in the future. NHTSA is eyeing toyota
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/26/n...-toyota-prius/
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/26/n...-toyota-prius/
12-27-09, 12:23 AM
#15
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No vehicle is perfect, but Toyota can do better.....the past has proven that. I would not make that statement if they had not done such a good job for so long. It was the same way with GM.....they did some nice stuff at one time, and there was little excuse for their downfall into junk in the 1980's.
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That has nothing to do with your perceived notion of cheap plastics, as lower panel plastic next to your gas pedal has always been the cheapest one possible, in every car.
Below the LX570 interior door panel/
: notice all the different pieces that have to snapped together. Also, the LX570 uses one piece of wood on the door and no tweeters are present. All the plastic hard, there is a very, very slight softness to it. Also look at where Lexus puts the leather/simulated leather on the door pull, there is not much .
LX470 interior door panel
: Everything is soft, less pieces as well as each piece is much larger and in full unit. There are two pieces of wood, leather door pulls that are double stitched, there is also two speakers with once being a crome plated tweeter. There is also a leather/leatherette insert as well. Also the door lights illuminate the glove compartment as well.
Just wanted to point how the interior quality and complexity goes down.
Another thing, step into any Toyota except for the Land Cruiser and Avalon and notice the absence of seat anchor covers. The black metal seat anchor with the bolt is exposed. In the 2000-2004 Tundras Toyota covered this metal piece with plastic cover while in the 2005-06 Tundras Toyota cut this part out and exposed the metal. Now all Toyotas show this. Lastly, painted seat arrows are not missing on most Toyota power seat control except Land Cruiser and I believe Highlander.
Last edited by pagemaster; 12-27-09 at 12:32 AM.