Right to Repair Act
01-01-10, 03:41 AM
#1
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Right to Repair Act
LOS ANGELES (AP) — A sign inside the Humming Motors auto repair shop says, "We do the worrying so you don't have to."
These days, owner David Baur spends a lot of time worrying in his full-service garage near downtown Los Angeles.
As cars become vastly more complicated than models made just a few years ago, Baur is often turning down jobs and referring customers to auto dealer shops. Like many other independent mechanics, he does not have the thousands of dollars to purchase the online manuals and specialized tools needed to fix the computer-controlled machines.
Baur says the dilemma has left customers with fewer options for repair work and given automakers an unfair advantage.
"When I was younger, I kept going until I solved the problem," the weary mechanic said as he wiped grease from his hands while taking a break. "Lately I find myself backing out. I'm more reluctant to take complex jobs on."
Access to repair information is at the heart of a debate over a congressional bill called the Right to Repair Act. Supporters of the proposal say automakers are trying to monopolize the parts and repair industry by only sharing crucial tools and data with their dealership shops. The bill, which has been sent to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, would require automakers to provide all information to diagnose and service vehicles.
Automakers say they spend millions in research and development and aren't willing to give away their intellectual property. They say the auto parts and repair industry wants the bill passed so it can get patented information to make its own parts and sell them for less.
"Coke doesn't give away the recipe for Coke," said Charlie Territo, a spokesman for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers. "What this bill seeks to get is the recipe for Coke."
Many new vehicles come equipped with multiple computers controlling everything from the brakes to steering wheel, and automakers hold the key to diagnosing a vehicle's problem. In many instances, replacing a part requires reprogramming the computers — a difficult task without the software codes or diagrams of the vehicle's electrical wires.
Mechanics say repair information gets constantly updated so they must know how to find answers amid the sometimes overwhelming amount of data. Keeping up with technology has become almost a part-time job and requires thousands of dollars to get the right tools and online manuals for each model.
"Doctors have it easy because the human body doesn't change model every year," said Paul Brow, owner of All-Car Specialists, a 30-year-old shop in suburban San Gabriel.
The technology wave has made even the simplest tasks difficult for some ill-equipped mechanics. Baur, for instance, said he couldn't turn off the "check tire pressure" light after fixing a 2008 Mercury Grand Marquis because he lacked the roughly $1,000 tool to reset the tire pressure monitor.
The customer said he has to visit the dealer shop to complete the job.
"The tires are fine, for some reason the light just stays on," Louis Ontiveros, 42, said. "I haven't had the time to deal with it."
Dealership shops may be reaping profits from the technological advancements. A study released in March by the Automotive Aftermarket Industry Association found vehicle repairs cost an average of 34% more at new car dealerships than at independent repair shops, resulting in $11.7 billion in additional costs for consumers annually.
The association, whose members include Autozone, Jiffy Lube and other companies that provide replacement parts and accessories, contend automakers want the bill rejected so they can continue charging consumers more money.
"You pay all this money for your car, you should be able to decide where to get it repaired," said Aaron Lowe, the association's vice president of government affairs.
Opponents of the bill counter that the information and tools to repair the vehicles are available to those willing to buy them. They say any mechanic who can't get what they're looking for can file a complaint with the National Automotive Service Task Force. The nonprofit takes the complaints to carmakers and tries to resolve them through a voluntary arbitration process. Of the 44 complaints filed last year, all were resolved, according to the organization.
The bill, introduced by Rep. Edolphus Towns, D-N.Y., has been stalled in the House committee since April but has attracted 51 co-sponsors. It's unclear when or if the committee will vote on the matter.
Not all independent mechanics want to see the proposal approved.
Donny Seyfer, owner of a repair shop in Wheat Ridge, Colo., said the bill gives the impression that mechanics are unable to fix cars unless Congress steps in.
"I am so upset they're out there telling my customers that I can't do my job," said Seyfer, who leads training classes for mechanics. He said the modern mechanic must take regular training classes and spend hours reading and networking with other mechanics to share the latest repair information.
Seyfer said mechanics can't afford to work on all types of cars because vehicles are increasingly built with unique specifications and require their own set of tools. Mechanics must specialize in a select number of models to stay competitive, he said.
Baur said specialization is a luxury he can't afford. He said he bought the garage 20 years ago from a former boss who serviced all kinds of cars.
"What are you going to do? Refuse service to the people who've been coming here all these years?" he said.
Carolyn Coquillette, owner of a 2-year-old shop in downtown San Francisco that specializes in hybrid vehicles, said she spends about $11,000 a year on diagnostic tools and subscriptions to online databases. She said she passes the cost down to the customer but can compete with dealer shops by offering better deals.
She said her shop offers another advantage: Her team of mechanics can modify technical features and convert the hybrids — which are powered by battery and gasoline — into plug-ins.
"Cars present a challenge to me," Coquillette said. "I can think it's a pain in my butt, or I can think this is why I'm paid to do this job."
These days, owner David Baur spends a lot of time worrying in his full-service garage near downtown Los Angeles.
As cars become vastly more complicated than models made just a few years ago, Baur is often turning down jobs and referring customers to auto dealer shops. Like many other independent mechanics, he does not have the thousands of dollars to purchase the online manuals and specialized tools needed to fix the computer-controlled machines.
Baur says the dilemma has left customers with fewer options for repair work and given automakers an unfair advantage.
"When I was younger, I kept going until I solved the problem," the weary mechanic said as he wiped grease from his hands while taking a break. "Lately I find myself backing out. I'm more reluctant to take complex jobs on."
Access to repair information is at the heart of a debate over a congressional bill called the Right to Repair Act. Supporters of the proposal say automakers are trying to monopolize the parts and repair industry by only sharing crucial tools and data with their dealership shops. The bill, which has been sent to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, would require automakers to provide all information to diagnose and service vehicles.
Automakers say they spend millions in research and development and aren't willing to give away their intellectual property. They say the auto parts and repair industry wants the bill passed so it can get patented information to make its own parts and sell them for less.
"Coke doesn't give away the recipe for Coke," said Charlie Territo, a spokesman for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers. "What this bill seeks to get is the recipe for Coke."
Many new vehicles come equipped with multiple computers controlling everything from the brakes to steering wheel, and automakers hold the key to diagnosing a vehicle's problem. In many instances, replacing a part requires reprogramming the computers — a difficult task without the software codes or diagrams of the vehicle's electrical wires.
Mechanics say repair information gets constantly updated so they must know how to find answers amid the sometimes overwhelming amount of data. Keeping up with technology has become almost a part-time job and requires thousands of dollars to get the right tools and online manuals for each model.
"Doctors have it easy because the human body doesn't change model every year," said Paul Brow, owner of All-Car Specialists, a 30-year-old shop in suburban San Gabriel.
The technology wave has made even the simplest tasks difficult for some ill-equipped mechanics. Baur, for instance, said he couldn't turn off the "check tire pressure" light after fixing a 2008 Mercury Grand Marquis because he lacked the roughly $1,000 tool to reset the tire pressure monitor.
The customer said he has to visit the dealer shop to complete the job.
"The tires are fine, for some reason the light just stays on," Louis Ontiveros, 42, said. "I haven't had the time to deal with it."
Dealership shops may be reaping profits from the technological advancements. A study released in March by the Automotive Aftermarket Industry Association found vehicle repairs cost an average of 34% more at new car dealerships than at independent repair shops, resulting in $11.7 billion in additional costs for consumers annually.
The association, whose members include Autozone, Jiffy Lube and other companies that provide replacement parts and accessories, contend automakers want the bill rejected so they can continue charging consumers more money.
"You pay all this money for your car, you should be able to decide where to get it repaired," said Aaron Lowe, the association's vice president of government affairs.
Opponents of the bill counter that the information and tools to repair the vehicles are available to those willing to buy them. They say any mechanic who can't get what they're looking for can file a complaint with the National Automotive Service Task Force. The nonprofit takes the complaints to carmakers and tries to resolve them through a voluntary arbitration process. Of the 44 complaints filed last year, all were resolved, according to the organization.
The bill, introduced by Rep. Edolphus Towns, D-N.Y., has been stalled in the House committee since April but has attracted 51 co-sponsors. It's unclear when or if the committee will vote on the matter.
Not all independent mechanics want to see the proposal approved.
Donny Seyfer, owner of a repair shop in Wheat Ridge, Colo., said the bill gives the impression that mechanics are unable to fix cars unless Congress steps in.
"I am so upset they're out there telling my customers that I can't do my job," said Seyfer, who leads training classes for mechanics. He said the modern mechanic must take regular training classes and spend hours reading and networking with other mechanics to share the latest repair information.
Seyfer said mechanics can't afford to work on all types of cars because vehicles are increasingly built with unique specifications and require their own set of tools. Mechanics must specialize in a select number of models to stay competitive, he said.
Baur said specialization is a luxury he can't afford. He said he bought the garage 20 years ago from a former boss who serviced all kinds of cars.
"What are you going to do? Refuse service to the people who've been coming here all these years?" he said.
Carolyn Coquillette, owner of a 2-year-old shop in downtown San Francisco that specializes in hybrid vehicles, said she spends about $11,000 a year on diagnostic tools and subscriptions to online databases. She said she passes the cost down to the customer but can compete with dealer shops by offering better deals.
She said her shop offers another advantage: Her team of mechanics can modify technical features and convert the hybrids — which are powered by battery and gasoline — into plug-ins.
"Cars present a challenge to me," Coquillette said. "I can think it's a pain in my butt, or I can think this is why I'm paid to do this job."
Last edited by GS69; 01-01-10 at 05:46 PM.
01-01-10, 02:42 PM
#3
ok this guy david baur is whining about how auto manufacturers and their new technology are making his job too DIFFICULT because he does not have the resources to buy the equipment and new tools to get the job done. which sounds like a personal problem to me, and he feels the government should step in.... which is a load of crap. he is saying that the manufacturers are keeping the repair information under wraps and make it available only to the franchise dealerships. which i don't believe because i know you can get the stuff from places like bently publishers... and that is pretty much the short version. i say if you can't keep up with the times then you either gotta leave the scene or find some way to adapt and overcome, not expect the government to step in and make everything ok. here's a screen shot of this guys shop.. personally i wouldn't take my 40-50k car here to get service.
heres his website http://hummingmotors.com/index.html
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...343.67,,0,4.15
heres his website http://hummingmotors.com/index.html
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...343.67,,0,4.15
01-01-10, 04:23 PM
#4
ok this guy david baur is whining about how auto manufacturers and their new technology are making his job too DIFFICULT because he does not have the resources to buy the equipment and new tools to get the job done. which sounds like a personal problem to me, and he feels the government should step in.... which is a load of crap. he is saying that the manufacturers are keeping the repair information under wraps and make it available only to the franchise dealerships. which i don't believe because i know you can get the stuff from places like bently publishers... and that is pretty much the short version. i say if you can't keep up with the times then you either gotta leave the scene or find some way to adapt and overcome, not expect the government to step in and make everything ok. here's a screen shot of this guys shop.. personally i wouldn't take my 40-50k car here to get service.
heres his website http://hummingmotors.com/index.html
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...343.67,,0,4.15
heres his website http://hummingmotors.com/index.html
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...343.67,,0,4.15
01-01-10, 04:30 PM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
While he has a point, with the government setting the bailout trend, EVERYONE will continue to go to them as the sole source for help so that is one problem.
The man does have a point though that if you are an old school mechanic, you will simply lose business on new cars if you don't have new equipment and training. However that opens the doors to a new market and small business to do that. Carolyn Coquilletteseems to understand this.
Its not like these mechanics did not see what was happening with cars getting more complicated. This is no longer the world where adding an exhaust and intake means results.
I've changed the oil on my Lexus for over a decade now and the new filters are cheaper but if I use synthetic oil yes it will cost more. If I don't the price is actually cheaper.
The man does have a point though that if you are an old school mechanic, you will simply lose business on new cars if you don't have new equipment and training. However that opens the doors to a new market and small business to do that. Carolyn Coquilletteseems to understand this.
Its not like these mechanics did not see what was happening with cars getting more complicated. This is no longer the world where adding an exhaust and intake means results.
I've changed the oil on my Lexus for over a decade now and the new filters are cheaper but if I use synthetic oil yes it will cost more. If I don't the price is actually cheaper.
01-01-10, 04:57 PM
#6
I have always worked on my own cars, when I bought my 2000 Boxster in 2003 a service manual cost $1,200. A local Porsche shop owner told me he spends about $30,000 a year on Porsche repair info & Porsche specific tools. Next month I am Taking a course on rebuilding the engine in my Porsche $500. + airfare to Atlanta + about $ 1,000 for specialized tools required to assemble the engine. Automakers are creating a monopoly on auto repair, & converting "Service after the sale" to Ripoff after the sale.
01-01-10, 08:33 PM
#7
Lexus Fanatic
I don't necessarily buy the argument that having fewer independent repair shops is unfair to auto buyers. It is true that repair/service options could become more limited, but that is counterbalanced by the fact that not only are factory warranties longer now than in the past (and generally still getting longer, not shorter), but some manufacturers offer free servicing for a number of years on their new vehicles. So, no matter how complex a modern vehicle is, the factory (and its dealerships) are standing behind it longer and longer.
Last edited by mmarshall; 01-01-10 at 08:38 PM.
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01-01-10, 08:34 PM
#8
Lexus Fanatic
I have always worked on my own cars, when I bought my 2000 Boxster in 2003 a service manual cost $1,200. A local Porsche shop owner told me he spends about $30,000 a year on Porsche repair info & Porsche specific tools. Next month I am Taking a course on rebuilding the engine in my Porsche $500. + airfare to Atlanta + about $ 1,000 for specialized tools required to assemble the engine. Automakers are creating a monopoly on auto repair, & converting "Service after the sale" to Ripoff after the sale.
01-01-10, 10:37 PM
#9
This is a tough one. On one hand, there are many independent mechanics that are more competent than some of these hacks they have with the "proper" tools and equipment.
On the other hand, we're long past the point of vehicle failures consisting of: no spark or no fuel. Working on new vehicles is a specialty -- as with any specialty, the proper tools and training are required -- at the specialist's expense.
I do all of my own non-warranty repairs and maintenance. I subscribe to Alldata or Toyota's TIS (as the case may be) and independent shops can do the same thing (at a cheaper rate than I can) - so I don't buy that aspect of the sob story, unfortunately. The tools -- those are cost prohibitive, for sure.... beyond what I can justify as a shadetree mechanic. I'm stuck with utilizing the dealer for things that require connecting their toughbook.
If I had the time and desire, I'd start a mobile diagnostic unit that does nothing but go to various independent shops, using my equipment to connect to vehicles to diagnose and reset customer vehicles. There would be a diagnostic fee, but for those who feel they can't justify the thousands of dollars for the equipment (for each vehicle make) - they would have access to someone outside of the dealership that does. They would still pass along the cost, but to a much lesser extent.
Point being - there's options. Forcing the government to intervene, yet again, is not a solid option.
On the other hand, we're long past the point of vehicle failures consisting of: no spark or no fuel. Working on new vehicles is a specialty -- as with any specialty, the proper tools and training are required -- at the specialist's expense.
I do all of my own non-warranty repairs and maintenance. I subscribe to Alldata or Toyota's TIS (as the case may be) and independent shops can do the same thing (at a cheaper rate than I can) - so I don't buy that aspect of the sob story, unfortunately. The tools -- those are cost prohibitive, for sure.... beyond what I can justify as a shadetree mechanic. I'm stuck with utilizing the dealer for things that require connecting their toughbook.
If I had the time and desire, I'd start a mobile diagnostic unit that does nothing but go to various independent shops, using my equipment to connect to vehicles to diagnose and reset customer vehicles. There would be a diagnostic fee, but for those who feel they can't justify the thousands of dollars for the equipment (for each vehicle make) - they would have access to someone outside of the dealership that does. They would still pass along the cost, but to a much lesser extent.
Point being - there's options. Forcing the government to intervene, yet again, is not a solid option.
01-02-10, 02:02 AM
#10
Lexus Champion
In the Bay Area, there are a few shops here that can do most things the stealership can - better. The article here mentions one of the shops - Luscious Garage in San Francisco, which services a lot of the city's hybrid taxi fleet and they do all sorts of things on the Prius/Insight. Another shop has access to all the OEM scanners and their service extranets.
Toyota has done a very good job of making the TIS system accessible to the independent shop, they have the same tools as the dealer now. Honda has also released a version of the HDS for independent dealers. VAG-COM has been around for years to the VW/Audi crowd and it has OEM-level functions. It's only Detroit that wants their systems to be kept closed, even though Mac Tools and Snap-On sell the GM Tech 2, but it's expensive.
Toyota has done a very good job of making the TIS system accessible to the independent shop, they have the same tools as the dealer now. Honda has also released a version of the HDS for independent dealers. VAG-COM has been around for years to the VW/Audi crowd and it has OEM-level functions. It's only Detroit that wants their systems to be kept closed, even though Mac Tools and Snap-On sell the GM Tech 2, but it's expensive.
01-02-10, 02:22 AM
#11
In the Bay Area, there are a few shops here that can do most things the stealership can - better. The article here mentions one of the shops - Luscious Garage in San Francisco, which services a lot of the city's hybrid taxi fleet and they do all sorts of things on the Prius/Insight. Another shop has access to all the OEM scanners and their service extranets.
Toyota has done a very good job of making the TIS system accessible to the independent shop, they have the same tools as the dealer now. Honda has also released a version of the HDS for independent dealers. VAG-COM has been around for years to the VW/Audi crowd and it has OEM-level functions. It's only Detroit that wants their systems to be kept closed, even though Mac Tools and Snap-On sell the GM Tech 2, but it's expensive.
Toyota has done a very good job of making the TIS system accessible to the independent shop, they have the same tools as the dealer now. Honda has also released a version of the HDS for independent dealers. VAG-COM has been around for years to the VW/Audi crowd and it has OEM-level functions. It's only Detroit that wants their systems to be kept closed, even though Mac Tools and Snap-On sell the GM Tech 2, but it's expensive.
01-04-10, 07:19 AM
#12
Lexus Test Driver
I cannot believe you guys are actually against this. This bill will create fair competition and more competition means lower prices for the customers. It also elimites the need for specially tools to reset things like oil change reminder and such.
01-04-10, 08:06 AM
#13
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As a 4th year med student, this infuriates me,
"Doctors have it easy because the human body doesn't change model every year," said Paul Brow, owner of All-Car Specialists, a 30-year-old shop in suburban San Gabriel.
Then go be a doctor u hick
"Doctors have it easy because the human body doesn't change model every year," said Paul Brow, owner of All-Car Specialists, a 30-year-old shop in suburban San Gabriel.
Then go be a doctor u hick
01-04-10, 08:11 AM
#14
Super Moderator
My Uncle Antonio in Mexico wasn't up to speed on modern electronics (that's why I got him a very advanced OBD2 Actron scanner for his shop), but I guarantee you 9 times out of 10, he knew what was wrong by simply examining the vehicle even if it was relatively new. I come back to the U.S. and most, but not all, mechanics I've met have the advanced diagnostics software/hardware.
01-04-10, 08:26 AM
#15
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I don't necessarily buy the argument that having fewer independent repair shops is unfair to auto buyers. It is true that repair/service options could become more limited, but that is counterbalanced by the fact that not only are factory warranties longer now than in the past (and generally still getting longer, not shorter), but some manufacturers offer free servicing for a number of years on their new vehicles. So, no matter how complex a modern vehicle is, the factory (and its dealerships) are standing behind it longer and longer.
The bigger issue, as I see it, is not with new vehicles, but used ones.
As cars get older, they get sold to other owners, and eventually the warranty expires. Most 2nd owners don't go to the dealership for servicing, but rather the local shop down the street. But the technology in the car is still there, so the shop owner is still forced to buy the expensive equipment. While this may not seem like a huge issue at the moment, in the near future it does become a problem for the shop owner.
Now do I think the gov. should step in? Not necessarily, but I do feel that many shops are going to have troubles as the new cars we have now become older. Luckily, as technology becomes older, the means to diagnose and repair it becomes cheaper...