I guess your right.

 

This is not about Mercedes. This is about Lexus.....Mercedes does make all thing to all people like a G-Wagon to the Canadian military or a Buses in Australia.....Lexus should stick to making luxury, and they should one up everyone and make uber luxury...As for LF-A....I would of supported it as a Toyota badged super-car leading to the reintroduction of Supra/Mr2 performance models

 

If VW and Audi can have models that compete with each other Toyota could follow VW's example and bring Lexus downmarket, even if that means that Lexus overlaps with Toyota a bit. Audi is the number one selling luxury marque in Europe for a reason.

Lexus could probably introduce the ES (240/350/hybrid?/diesel?) there to compete head on with the A6, and let the GS (250/350/hybrid/diesel?/V8/F) compete more with the higher priced E class and 5 series.

If Mercedes can sustain having all those different models plus having AMG, I don't see why Lexus can't. Toyota is the largest auto company in the world. They can sustain having an MR2/Supra and letting Lexus have the LFA.

 

From what I got from the Car and Driver article is that the LF-A goes away from what Lexus has always been. This I agree with, Lexus has no idea what it wants to become. It also seems like a lot of people mistake LF-A criticism for the cars is no good. That is not the case, yes the Lexus LF-A is a good achievement but is it the right achievement?

I always like to compare the LF-A to the Nissan GT-R. Two different approaches to super-cars..but the GT-R just feels more right. If the GT-R were a Inifinti, it would of been a mistake.

I still stand on my belief that the LF-A should of been a Toyota badged car. TRD and Toyota racing would benefit and cars like the Supra/MR2 would have an easier business case.

Right now Toyota still does not have anything to counter the Genesis Coupe, 300Z, Camaro, Challenger, Corvette, GT-R....yet they have built something that can challenge a Ferrari....Isn't Lexus supposed to stand for luxury? does not make any business sense to me....Oh yeah and Toyota will be losing money on the LF-A....

 

One thing is clear: with Hyundai entering this space, Lexus is going to have to be better than the Germans to survive. If they offer 90% of BMW refinement at 90% of BMW price, then Hyundai will kill them.

 

LOL, BMW and refinement shouldn't be used in the same sentence

Lexus will be allright.

 

But will the quality remain in those core cars. We already see signs of slippage. How much of it can be blamed on a loss of focus? Something is wrong, that's for sure.

 

You have a good argument, but I don't see what wrong with Lexus bringing out the LFA. Yes it may be a few classes too high, but Mercedes had a $500K supercar a little bit ago, and I don't hear anyone saying that that car goes away from what Mercedes has always been. The LFA helps Lexus's prestige globally so even though their losing money on it, the LFA is becoming free advertising for the brand. IMO it's still a good investment.

The muscle car market is extremely crowded and it'd be best for Toyota to wait till the dust settles before entering the segment. If they had came out with something like that last year it would have been overshadowed by pretty much all of the vehicles you listed.

Instead Toyota is going into a relatively untapped segment with the FT-86 and I think that's going to be much more successful.

 

Quality doesn't have to slip. The funny thing is Toyota didn't have ANY performance vehicles at all when when quality DID begin to slip. The reason quality slipped in their current models is because 6-7 years ago when the current lineup was being developed, the accountants wanted to get a fatter profit per vehicle sold and they cheapened interior materials and cut cost elsewhere. They didn't have to do that because back then the economy was still great, but they wanted bigger and bigger profits.

The main loss of focus for Toyota wasn't in making performance cars, it was in chasing high profits and not high quality. There are things they could've done like expanding manufacturing to local markets and out of Japan so that they wouldn't get hit with currency rates, they could've consolidated global models that overlapped, etc etc. but instead of doing those things Toyota tried (and is still trying) to lower cost through using cheaper materials in their cars.

That's why I think they could make performance cars without the quality of their core cars slipping. If they refocus their goals to making quality cars and not making high profit cars then they could really do whatever. The company is big enough to do a lot of great things and they already invest more than any other company in R&D. They just need to stop letting bean counters and accountants lead every company decision especially decisions that can affect long term quality.

 

High prices and no diesels and no image. Lexus I think is right, the Germans dominate so they better offer something else, hybrids.

Yup. Also Lexus does not have the large amount of diesels to counter. Most cars sold in Europe are diesels. Lexus doesn't have a V-6 LS. They offer a very small, limited and more expensive lineup.

Yup. No one complains about that. If they don't expand their products, they will die. They have to sell more.

His point is relevant. Mercedes, BMW, Audi cater to EVERYTHING. They make cute utes, wagons, hatchbacks, 4 cylinders, V-12s, sport, luxury. They don't just make one thing, one way. In the last ten years all three (and Lexus) have expanded lineups tremendous.

Get PAST the BADGE. If the LFA was a Toyota you know what people would say? What I say about INfiniti. It is ridiculous your regular brand's most expensive car is more expensive than your luxury brand.


This is utter fodder. The brand has been #1 in sales in America for ten years now. They are the 4th best selling worldwide. Lexus is still very successful. You are acting like Lexus is lost, as if sales are down, they are #20 in quality and no one wants them. They continue to sell well, be admired and wanted.

You don't like the LFA, which is fine. However you bring up what the competition offers that Lexus or Toyota does not. YOU NEVER bring up what Toyota/Lexus has that the competition does not offer. I think it is utterly preposterous for ANYONE to diss or dislike an exotic, ANY exotic. They are cars to dream about and show passion. SOmething many said Lexus was lacking. They now provide their VISION OF PASSION and people COMPLAIN?

Lexus stands for EXCELLENCE. The passionate pursuit of perfection.

There is no correlation between quality slipping with sport and people need to understand the recalls now have NOTHING to do with that. It has to do with some questionable moves by management. Toyota had top quality when they offered the MR2, Celica, Supra, etc etc. The IS-F has been very reliable. For the most part Lexus has been on top or near the tops in quality still. We haven't seen any quality slip since Lexus offered the IS, GS, IS-F etc. The IS was actually the most reliable vehicle in Europe a few times.

Some people clearly just want to bish;

-B/C if Lexus just offered luxury only, they would complain Lexus is boring and not sporty.
-Lexus is now attempting to go sporty and has gotten very good reviews, feedback with it, including sales and people still want to bish.

WHERE DOES IT SAY A CAR MAKER SHOULD BE ONE WAY ONLY? Where?

About 5 years ago Lexus stated they will get sportier BUT they will also keep current owners happy. They have done that for the most part. If Lexus did not make the IS/GS, did not offer an IS-F or LFA, they would be left behind.

 

I think Lexus realizes this. There is a HUGE market for those that want performance and quality/reliablity. The IS-F forum is full of owners that switched from other brands b/c they love the reliability of the IS. Like I said above when Toyota had the Supra, MR2, Celica All-trac, etc they were still great in reliability and quality. Sport and quality can co-exist.

Lexus continues to be #1 or in the top 3 or so with quality, even as the cars have gotten sportier. Even the LS today in base form is more interesting than a LS years ago.

Lexus is not changing directions. The LUVs, ES, LS, HS are still core. The IS, GS are still core. Sport models are not base, they are optional. F-sport is optional.

Lexus has an opportunity to offer sport and luxury and in some cases blend both. Looking at sales, it has worked.

Quite frankly if we want to get to some of the issue, it is again these silly reviewers. Test after test, month after month, they bash and dislike luxury and "boring". The public then turns its opinion on a brand. Thus the brand caters to them hoping to keep/win them back.

Which is why this mag is complete crap.

 

I think that Dustin is probably right in the sense that Lexus does not have the same image in Europe as BMW/MB/Audi, and therefore they can't get away with selling econo-boxes with premium pricetag. If they slapped Lexus badge on a Corolla and tried to sell it at a price point of 118, A3, it wouldn't work. This is why they need to build their image up first with expensive, exclusive models.

With that being said, Lexus hybrids really got a lot going for them in Europe. In many places they are exempt from certain taxes and tolls, and that is a big selling point.

But overall, the state of true premium car market in Europe is pretty sad. With ridiculously high fuel prices and taxes, people simply do not buy premium cars.

 

For the longest time the Toyota Century was Toyota's most expensive model. Until recently there was no Lexus model that started higher. Now only and LF-A are higher. And if you count the LS600h as a upgrade package of the LS than it is only the LF-A that starts higher. Nobody seemed to complain for the longest time that the Century was Toyota's most expensive model. .

I have yet to see anyone complain that the GT-R is Nissan's most expensive model and in the Toyota family the Toyota Land Cruiser has a higher starting MSRP than the Lexus flagship LS460

I highly doubt that the a Toyota LF-A would of been $400,000 but it would not do anything to weaken the Lexus line. IMO the more racing heritage Toyota has and offers, the stronger Lexus Sport will do...Lexus SUVs have respect for off-roading because of Toyota's legendary off-road capability.

What like the Hybrid GS or LS?....both those models are fail IMO. One tries to be performance (and does it very well) and the other tries to be a faux V12 which fails with a capital F (no pun intended as per Lexus F cars)....Lexus tried to use hybrid tech to further performance...The competition like BMW/MB did not follow and instead offer a better hybrid package at a lower price.

I will give Lexus kudos for the RX hybrid. A very well done SUV....eventually they should stop selling the gas 350 and just have the RX a dedicated hybrid

 

Wow you really haven't done your homework on this subject have you? If you want to call the S400 Hybrid a competitor, so be it. By the time you add up all the options, the S400 Hybrid will fall into the LS600hL's price point. Mercedes has too many variations of the S class so they need something competitive to take away from the leader. BMW nor does any other Europeans or Domestics have anything to offer in this class. NO CONTEST.

If price is really a factor, the GS450h although smaller than the S400 Hybrid, costs less, has more horsepower, larger displacement, better overall mileage and hybrid powertrain technology that is proven. Lexus has 2 hybrid options to sandwich the S400 Hybrid's price point. LEXUS WIN.

Your reasoning has no logic. Why would you axe Lexus' bread and butter vehicle (alongside the ES350)? It's the best selling luxury SUV out there. Making it a dedicated hybrid would shoot the price up in the low $50k mark. Then that would translate to lost sales. Lexus has clearly led this segment.

 

No one knows what a Toyota Century is except those in Japan. Toyota is known for the LS, not for the Century. The Century is extremely old and it is irrelevant.

The point is GT-R is more expensive than any INfniti, period. Base, optioned, period. The Land Cruiser is less than many Lexus base and with options. Apples to Oranges.

You then find another thread to discredit anything Lexus does and give credit to anyone else for simple things. You give credit for I-drive but not for hybrids? As a matter of fact, since the LS, GS, GX, ES, RX 350, HS, IS, Lexus hybrids, is all fail to you, why exactly are you here? You discredit the man that visited the Toyota plants and came back with positive remarks. You start a thread with Lexus/Toyota is going to fail, etc.

At this point not sure what more you can share with us since you find Lexus and Toyota pretty unappealing.