Car & Driver's Take on Lexus ( Has Lexus lost its way merge)
#91
#92
This is not about Mercedes. This is about Lexus.....Mercedes does make all thing to all people like a G-Wagon to the Canadian military or a Buses in Australia.....Lexus should stick to making luxury, and they should one up everyone and make uber luxury...As for LF-A....I would of supported it as a Toyota badged super-car leading to the reintroduction of Supra/Mr2 performance models
#93
Lexus could probably introduce the ES (240/350/hybrid?/diesel?) there to compete head on with the A6, and let the GS (250/350/hybrid/diesel?/V8/F) compete more with the higher priced E class and 5 series.
This is not about Mercedes. This is about Lexus.....Mercedes does make all thing to all people like a G-Wagon to the Canadian military or a Buses in Australia.....Lexus should stick to making luxury, and they should one up everyone and make uber luxury...As for LF-A....I would of supported it as a Toyota badged super-car leading to the reintroduction of Supra/Mr2 performance models
#94
I always like to compare the LF-A to the Nissan GT-R. Two different approaches to super-cars..but the GT-R just feels more right. If the GT-R were a Inifinti, it would of been a mistake.
I still stand on my belief that the LF-A should of been a Toyota badged car. TRD and Toyota racing would benefit and cars like the Supra/MR2 would have an easier business case.
Right now Toyota still does not have anything to counter the Genesis Coupe, 300Z, Camaro, Challenger, Corvette, GT-R....yet they have built something that can challenge a Ferrari....Isn't Lexus supposed to stand for luxury? does not make any business sense to me....Oh yeah and Toyota will be losing money on the LF-A....
Last edited by pagemaster; 02-07-10 at 01:31 PM.
#96
Lexus will be allright.
#97
Toyota is the largest auto company in the world. They have more than enough resources to produce quality vehicles and high performance vehicles. If VW can have as many high performance brands in it's portfolio and do well, so can Toyota.
Lexus needs to continue to produce cars like the ES, RX and LS, for their core buyers, but at the same time they need to offer an IS-F, GS-F, SC-F, and LFA to appeal to a broader performance buyer subset. That's what luxury brands like Mercedes and BMW are all about. Options and choices, appealing to nearly every set of buyer in the luxury class.
Lexus needs to continue to produce cars like the ES, RX and LS, for their core buyers, but at the same time they need to offer an IS-F, GS-F, SC-F, and LFA to appeal to a broader performance buyer subset. That's what luxury brands like Mercedes and BMW are all about. Options and choices, appealing to nearly every set of buyer in the luxury class.
#98
From what I got from the Car and Driver article is that the LF-A goes away from what Lexus has always been. This I agree with, Lexus has no idea what it wants to become. It also seems like a lot of people mistake LF-A criticism for the cars is no good. That is not the case, yes the Lexus LF-A is a good achievement but is it the right achievement?
I always like to compare the LF-A to the Nissan GT-R. Two different approaches to super-cars..but the GT-R just feels more right. If the GT-R were a Inifinti, it would of been a mistake.
I still stand on my belief that the LF-A should of been a Toyota badged car. TRD and Toyota racing would benefit and cars like the Supra/MR2 would have an easier business case.
Right now Toyota still does not have anything to counter the Genesis Coupe, 300Z, Camaro, Challenger, Corvette, GT-R....yet they have built something that can challenge a Ferrari....Isn't Lexus supposed to stand for luxury? does not make any business sense to me....Oh yeah and Toyota will be losing money on the LF-A....
I always like to compare the LF-A to the Nissan GT-R. Two different approaches to super-cars..but the GT-R just feels more right. If the GT-R were a Inifinti, it would of been a mistake.
I still stand on my belief that the LF-A should of been a Toyota badged car. TRD and Toyota racing would benefit and cars like the Supra/MR2 would have an easier business case.
Right now Toyota still does not have anything to counter the Genesis Coupe, 300Z, Camaro, Challenger, Corvette, GT-R....yet they have built something that can challenge a Ferrari....Isn't Lexus supposed to stand for luxury? does not make any business sense to me....Oh yeah and Toyota will be losing money on the LF-A....
The muscle car market is extremely crowded and it'd be best for Toyota to wait till the dust settles before entering the segment. If they had came out with something like that last year it would have been overshadowed by pretty much all of the vehicles you listed.
Instead Toyota is going into a relatively untapped segment with the FT-86 and I think that's going to be much more successful.
#99
The main loss of focus for Toyota wasn't in making performance cars, it was in chasing high profits and not high quality. There are things they could've done like expanding manufacturing to local markets and out of Japan so that they wouldn't get hit with currency rates, they could've consolidated global models that overlapped, etc etc. but instead of doing those things Toyota tried (and is still trying) to lower cost through using cheaper materials in their cars.
That's why I think they could make performance cars without the quality of their core cars slipping. If they refocus their goals to making quality cars and not making high profit cars then they could really do whatever. The company is big enough to do a lot of great things and they already invest more than any other company in R&D. They just need to stop letting bean counters and accountants lead every company decision especially decisions that can affect long term quality.
#100
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Check out Audi's and VW's UK websites:
http://www.audi.co.uk/explore-models...-range/a3.html
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/#/new/golf-vi/
The price difference between the A3 and Golf is nearly non-existent.
Looking closer at Audi's price scheme the brand is pretty downmarket. The price difference between the A4 and A6 is pretty small. The price of the A6 is nearly as low as Lexus UK's IS. The GS costs nearly twice as much as the A6, and the LS costs more than the A8.
http://www.lexus.co.uk/range/index.aspx
This is probably why Lexus isn't doing well in Europe. Why pay higher prices for a brand that you're not familiar with? I don't think I would, if a brand I knew and trust were cheaper. Infiniti is having the same problems in Europe as well, with their prices being even higher.
Lexus needs more entry level engine options, more diesels, and lower starting prices to succeed in Europe.
http://www.audi.co.uk/explore-models...-range/a3.html
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/#/new/golf-vi/
The price difference between the A3 and Golf is nearly non-existent.
Looking closer at Audi's price scheme the brand is pretty downmarket. The price difference between the A4 and A6 is pretty small. The price of the A6 is nearly as low as Lexus UK's IS. The GS costs nearly twice as much as the A6, and the LS costs more than the A8.
http://www.lexus.co.uk/range/index.aspx
This is probably why Lexus isn't doing well in Europe. Why pay higher prices for a brand that you're not familiar with? I don't think I would, if a brand I knew and trust were cheaper. Infiniti is having the same problems in Europe as well, with their prices being even higher.
Lexus needs more entry level engine options, more diesels, and lower starting prices to succeed in Europe.
Yup. No one complains about that. If they don't expand their products, they will die. They have to sell more.
This is not about Mercedes. This is about Lexus.....Mercedes does make all thing to all people like a G-Wagon to the Canadian military or a Buses in Australia.....Lexus should stick to making luxury, and they should one up everyone and make uber luxury...As for LF-A....I would of supported it as a Toyota badged super-car leading to the reintroduction of Supra/Mr2 performance models
Get PAST the BADGE. If the LFA was a Toyota you know what people would say? What I say about INfiniti. It is ridiculous your regular brand's most expensive car is more expensive than your luxury brand.
From what I got from the Car and Driver article is that the LF-A goes away from what Lexus has always been. This I agree with, Lexus has no idea what it wants to become. It also seems like a lot of people mistake LF-A criticism for the cars is no good. That is not the case, yes the Lexus LF-A is a good achievement but is it the right achievement?
I always like to compare the LF-A to the Nissan GT-R. Two different approaches to super-cars..but the GT-R just feels more right. If the GT-R were a Inifinti, it would of been a mistake.
I still stand on my belief that the LF-A should of been a Toyota badged car. TRD and Toyota racing would benefit and cars like the Supra/MR2 would have an easier business case.
Right now Toyota still does not have anything to counter the Genesis Coupe, 300Z, Camaro, Challenger, Corvette, GT-R....yet they have built something that can challenge a Ferrari....Isn't Lexus supposed to stand for luxury? does not make any business sense to me....Oh yeah and Toyota will be losing money on the LF-A....
I always like to compare the LF-A to the Nissan GT-R. Two different approaches to super-cars..but the GT-R just feels more right. If the GT-R were a Inifinti, it would of been a mistake.
I still stand on my belief that the LF-A should of been a Toyota badged car. TRD and Toyota racing would benefit and cars like the Supra/MR2 would have an easier business case.
Right now Toyota still does not have anything to counter the Genesis Coupe, 300Z, Camaro, Challenger, Corvette, GT-R....yet they have built something that can challenge a Ferrari....Isn't Lexus supposed to stand for luxury? does not make any business sense to me....Oh yeah and Toyota will be losing money on the LF-A....
You don't like the LFA, which is fine. However you bring up what the competition offers that Lexus or Toyota does not. YOU NEVER bring up what Toyota/Lexus has that the competition does not offer. I think it is utterly preposterous for ANYONE to diss or dislike an exotic, ANY exotic. They are cars to dream about and show passion. SOmething many said Lexus was lacking. They now provide their VISION OF PASSION and people COMPLAIN?
Lexus stands for EXCELLENCE. The passionate pursuit of perfection.
Quality doesn't have to slip. The funny thing is Toyota didn't have ANY performance vehicles at all when when quality DID begin to slip. The reason quality slipped in their current models is because 6-7 years ago when the current lineup was being developed, the accountants wanted to get a fatter profit per vehicle sold and they cheapened interior materials and cut cost elsewhere. They didn't have to do that because back then the economy was still great, but they wanted bigger and bigger profits.
The main loss of focus for Toyota wasn't in making performance cars, it was in chasing high profits and not high quality. There are things they could've done like expanding manufacturing to local markets and out of Japan so that they wouldn't get hit with currency rates, they could've consolidated global models that overlapped, etc etc. but instead of doing those things Toyota tried (and is still trying) to lower cost through using cheaper materials in their cars.
That's why I think they could make performance cars without the quality of their core cars slipping. If they refocus their goals to making quality cars and not making high profit cars then they could really do whatever. The company is big enough to do a lot of great things and they already invest more than any other company in R&D. They just need to stop letting bean counters and accountants lead every company decision especially decisions that can affect long term quality.
The main loss of focus for Toyota wasn't in making performance cars, it was in chasing high profits and not high quality. There are things they could've done like expanding manufacturing to local markets and out of Japan so that they wouldn't get hit with currency rates, they could've consolidated global models that overlapped, etc etc. but instead of doing those things Toyota tried (and is still trying) to lower cost through using cheaper materials in their cars.
That's why I think they could make performance cars without the quality of their core cars slipping. If they refocus their goals to making quality cars and not making high profit cars then they could really do whatever. The company is big enough to do a lot of great things and they already invest more than any other company in R&D. They just need to stop letting bean counters and accountants lead every company decision especially decisions that can affect long term quality.
Some people clearly just want to bish;
-B/C if Lexus just offered luxury only, they would complain Lexus is boring and not sporty.
-Lexus is now attempting to go sporty and has gotten very good reviews, feedback with it, including sales and people still want to bish.
WHERE DOES IT SAY A CAR MAKER SHOULD BE ONE WAY ONLY? Where?
About 5 years ago Lexus stated they will get sportier BUT they will also keep current owners happy. They have done that for the most part. If Lexus did not make the IS/GS, did not offer an IS-F or LFA, they would be left behind.
#101
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The reason I started the new thread was to ask your opinions on "has Lexus lost it's way."
This has turned into opinions about car magazines. Merging the threads fosters this but it was happening before the merge.
I just wanna know what you think about Lexus changing directions. I want some performance but I don't want Lexus to produce that performance at the risk of quality and luxury. I can add performance if I want. I prefer luxury and reliability. That's why I am a Lexus lover.
This has turned into opinions about car magazines. Merging the threads fosters this but it was happening before the merge.
I just wanna know what you think about Lexus changing directions. I want some performance but I don't want Lexus to produce that performance at the risk of quality and luxury. I can add performance if I want. I prefer luxury and reliability. That's why I am a Lexus lover.
Lexus continues to be #1 or in the top 3 or so with quality, even as the cars have gotten sportier. Even the LS today in base form is more interesting than a LS years ago.
Lexus is not changing directions. The LUVs, ES, LS, HS are still core. The IS, GS are still core. Sport models are not base, they are optional. F-sport is optional.
Lexus has an opportunity to offer sport and luxury and in some cases blend both. Looking at sales, it has worked.
Quite frankly if we want to get to some of the issue, it is again these silly reviewers. Test after test, month after month, they bash and dislike luxury and "boring". The public then turns its opinion on a brand. Thus the brand caters to them hoping to keep/win them back.
Which is why this mag is complete crap.
#102
I think that Dustin is probably right in the sense that Lexus does not have the same image in Europe as BMW/MB/Audi, and therefore they can't get away with selling econo-boxes with premium pricetag. If they slapped Lexus badge on a Corolla and tried to sell it at a price point of 118, A3, it wouldn't work. This is why they need to build their image up first with expensive, exclusive models.
With that being said, Lexus hybrids really got a lot going for them in Europe. In many places they are exempt from certain taxes and tolls, and that is a big selling point.
But overall, the state of true premium car market in Europe is pretty sad. With ridiculously high fuel prices and taxes, people simply do not buy premium cars.
With that being said, Lexus hybrids really got a lot going for them in Europe. In many places they are exempt from certain taxes and tolls, and that is a big selling point.
But overall, the state of true premium car market in Europe is pretty sad. With ridiculously high fuel prices and taxes, people simply do not buy premium cars.
#103
I have yet to see anyone complain that the GT-R is Nissan's most expensive model and in the Toyota family the Toyota Land Cruiser has a higher starting MSRP than the Lexus flagship LS460
I highly doubt that the a Toyota LF-A would of been $400,000 but it would not do anything to weaken the Lexus line. IMO the more racing heritage Toyota has and offers, the stronger Lexus Sport will do...Lexus SUVs have respect for off-roading because of Toyota's legendary off-road capability.
YOU NEVER bring up what Toyota/Lexus has that the competition does not offer.
I will give Lexus kudos for the RX hybrid. A very well done SUV....eventually they should stop selling the gas 350 and just have the RX a dedicated hybrid
Last edited by pagemaster; 02-08-10 at 01:27 AM.
#104
If price is really a factor, the GS450h although smaller than the S400 Hybrid, costs less, has more horsepower, larger displacement, better overall mileage and hybrid powertrain technology that is proven. Lexus has 2 hybrid options to sandwich the S400 Hybrid's price point. LEXUS WIN.
I will give Lexus kudos for the RX hybrid. A very well done SUV....eventually they should stop selling the gas 350 and just have the RX a dedicated hybrid
#105
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For the longest time the Toyota Century was Toyota's most expensive model. Until recently there was no Lexus model that started higher. Now only and LF-A are higher. And if you count the LS600h as a upgrade package of the LS than it is only the LF-A that starts higher. Nobody seemed to complain for the longest time that the Century was Toyota's most expensive model. .
I have yet to see anyone complain that the GT-R is Nissan's most expensive model and in the Toyota family the Toyota Land Cruiser has a higher starting MSRP than the Lexus flagship LS460
I highly doubt that the a Toyota LF-A would of been $400,000 but it would not do anything to weaken the Lexus line. IMO the more racing heritage Toyota has and offers, the stronger Lexus Sport will do...Lexus SUVs have respect for off-roading because of Toyota's legendary off-road capability.
What like the Hybrid GS or LS?....both those models are fail IMO. One tries to be performance (and does it very well) and the other tries to be a faux V12 which fails with a capital F (no pun intended as per Lexus F cars)....Lexus tried to use hybrid tech to further performance...The competition like BMW/MB did not follow and instead offer a better hybrid package at a lower price.
I will give Lexus kudos for the RX hybrid. A very well done SUV....eventually they should stop selling the gas 350 and just have the RX a dedicated hybrid
I have yet to see anyone complain that the GT-R is Nissan's most expensive model and in the Toyota family the Toyota Land Cruiser has a higher starting MSRP than the Lexus flagship LS460
I highly doubt that the a Toyota LF-A would of been $400,000 but it would not do anything to weaken the Lexus line. IMO the more racing heritage Toyota has and offers, the stronger Lexus Sport will do...Lexus SUVs have respect for off-roading because of Toyota's legendary off-road capability.
What like the Hybrid GS or LS?....both those models are fail IMO. One tries to be performance (and does it very well) and the other tries to be a faux V12 which fails with a capital F (no pun intended as per Lexus F cars)....Lexus tried to use hybrid tech to further performance...The competition like BMW/MB did not follow and instead offer a better hybrid package at a lower price.
I will give Lexus kudos for the RX hybrid. A very well done SUV....eventually they should stop selling the gas 350 and just have the RX a dedicated hybrid
The point is GT-R is more expensive than any INfniti, period. Base, optioned, period. The Land Cruiser is less than many Lexus base and with options. Apples to Oranges.
You then find another thread to discredit anything Lexus does and give credit to anyone else for simple things. You give credit for I-drive but not for hybrids? As a matter of fact, since the LS, GS, GX, ES, RX 350, HS, IS, Lexus hybrids, is all fail to you, why exactly are you here? You discredit the man that visited the Toyota plants and came back with positive remarks. You start a thread with Lexus/Toyota is going to fail, etc.
At this point not sure what more you can share with us since you find Lexus and Toyota pretty unappealing.