bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

C. McHale - replace Toyota throughout your post with GM or Ford and go back 10-20 years and it would still be true. and there were still ardent supporters of GM and Ford then when they were producing mostly CRAP. there IS a difference in that toyotas have been for the most part VERY reliable, with few defects, unlike older GM/Ford and even today's awful Chryslers.

lexusscturbo

iTrader: (12)

Also remember Audi? That Plauged them for 8 years

Wow I wonder what happened after 2004.

Well the 370Z has stayed @ the same MSRP after all of these years, and the car is better than ever.

Also as far as windnoise on the LS460; its rather quiet, more so than the new 7 series...Mercedes has the least of the touring sedans.

Also after having a neighbor who has a Tundra I was rather dissapointed when a KTM 250 bent the tailgate.... However having, 2 coworkers with an F150, and another with a Sierra, I was pretty impressed with the domestic's fit and finish for once.

flipside909

So you went to a dealer to see a "new" Camry, but you just got done saying you went to Carmax to see that Camry. That my friend is a used car. Based on your profile you currently drive an ES330 which is eons ahead of your previous Sentra, and definitely a step above the Camry and Accord. Rock solid is a great way to describe the Camry. But you were disappointed in the way the interior looked? Quality doesn't necessarily translate to how the interior surfaces look and feel. Quality is how well an interior stands up to the abuse of daily usage. Compare a 10 year old Camry interior to a 10 year old domestic car...there's no question which interior will hold up.

Curious, but did you end up going to for the Accord over the Camry? Or did you take the leap of faith and get the ES instead of the previous two. It's common knowledge the ES is based off the Camry. Camry roots, Toyota heritage. Keyword here is quality.

Do you know this for a fact? If so, how did you arrive to this conclusion? Consumers today are a lot more conscious on how they spend their dollars. Consumers today value quality. Toyota delivers well in this category.

Pperception is definitely different from reality. So because you think the Accord interior is better than the Camry's, it's better quality wise? Not quite. I do agree both Toyota and Honda produce great vehicles that last, but if the Accord was that much better, wouldn't the sales numbers reflect that? True, the Camry and Accord have always been neck and neck, but in reality, the Camry has outsold the Accord for many years consecutively. Consumers want overall value...and the Camry in reality is the popular choice.

That's the beauty of competition. Consumers have the choice to buy whatever fits their needs and wants. Hyundai, Kia, including the domestics have stepped up their game in terms of quality. Now the question is, are they really quality interiors, or just good looking interiors with questionable longevity? Toyota may not make the best looking interiors in comparison to their competition, but we know that interior will outlast many of it's competitors 10 years or more down the road.

Audi has probably one of the best looking interiors for any car in the market today but just because they look the best doesn't mean they're of high quality. I dare you to compare an interior of a Toyota with a Ford, Chevy or any other make for that matter of the same age and similar condition. I will guarantee you wont find trim panels hanging off and foam seat cushions depleted from everyday wear and tear.

flipside909

I hate to say it, Audi & VW produces stunning looking cars, but they're plagued with quality issues with their electrical components. Ever seen an engine pulled out of a newer Audi A6? The electrical is a nightmare to work on. European manufacturers have design and aesthetic priorities when they develop a car. It's obvious...the outside looks great, the inside looks spectacular, pop open the hood and the engine bay looks good. But good looks doesn't necessarily mean best build. Take away the facade and it's a different story. Placement of the electrical wiring and components are a mess. Putting everything back together takes a "certified factory trained specialist" to accomplish a simple task. BMW and MB are no strangers to this either.

That is something to question. I will have to agree with you that my 2004 IS300 was a rock solid car with no rattles. My 07 GS350 and 09 ISF have had rattle issues but were quickly fixed at the dealership. Overall, the 3 Lexus' that I have owned have been pretty rock solid other than the rattles with the last 2. Am I disappointed? Nope. I know 10-20-30 years down the road, these cars are not going to self destruct electrically or mechanically.

Nissan purposely kept the MSRP of the Z car consistent over the years. They want to draw repeat buyers as well as new buyers. That's what makes the Z car a great bang for the buck. All car manufacturers need to make their car better than the previous to keep up or beat the competition. That's the whole point of a production cycle and strategic planning.

A KTM 250 bent the tailgate of your neighbors Tundra? Sounds like more human error than anything else. The analogy of your neighbor's Tundra mishap has nothing to do with the fit and finish of your coworkers domestic trucks. That makes no sense.

lexusscturbo

iTrader: (12)

I was just affirming Pagemasters statement of how weak the Tundra tailgate is...but also a 2nd point is the interior on the Tundra is about equal if not a bit worse than its domestic competition.

I will give TMC the coin on that, Lexus' for the most part are electrically reliable and their motors minus that fuel rail issue are well made. I can't say the same about BMW's N series and their fuel pump/injectors.
But after 2004, Toyota didn't really keep improving in quality, they stayed the same, Sure your 04 IS300 was rock solid but the car itself was a (97(MY1998) Production Design))...Would I be incorrect if I said you're 04 IS300 had a better fit and finish as opposed to your 09 ISF?

LexFather

In regards to the Z, remember it shares its platform and engine with many vehicles, thus it helps keep the price down (I am not saying this is a bad thing).

The 1990-95 or so Z did not share that luxury (as much).

C. McHale

Not just the way it looked. The seating was not to my liking either. Viewpoint was not good. The seat would not raise high enough (I'm short). Altogether, the design as a whole disappointed me. Not saying it was worse than my Sentra (certainly not), but it was hardly better, and a Camry costs a LOT more in comparison. That's where the big disappointment comes from. When I say "new", I probably should have said "new used". Whoever sold the car had used it for less than a year.

I very nearly did. I was 90% sure I wanted the Accord, but really wanted to try the ES. The ES interior absolutely destroys the Camry, and is significantly better than the Accord. Also, the ES was basically loaded with every feature it could have at a good price. It even had NAV, which is a rare feature on 2005-2006 model ES 330s. That said, the ES 330 is based off the previous generation Camry, which, while definitely not a looker, struck me as having a better interior than the current generation.

You'd be surprised. I come from a Toyota family, if you know what I mean. I have friends who are the same. They buy Toyota because it always served them well in the past. But you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't check out competition when buying a car.

That's just one reason. But the critics have spoken here: I have not seen a single comparison test between the current generation Camry and Accord in which the Camry has scored higher. And, having driven both cars, I'd have to agree. The problems I had in the Camry, such as seat adjustment, were not problems I had in the Accord when I drove it.

But I guess it depends on who you ask. Some people will swear on their Camry. But, IMO, this current generation is a disappointment, especially when compared side by side next to its competition.

Well, that's hard to say. We know that from past experience. Check back on this current Camry in 2016 or 2017, and if the interior is still holding up at that point, then we'll be able to say it's durable and long lasting, as other Camry interiors have been. True, you can't say anything about durability with current generation competition, such as from Ford--but I'd be surprised if it was falling apart after 10 years. You can't build a car like that when the rebuilding of your reputation depends on it.

Audi is not really a valid comparison here, but if you want to go there--Audi interiors are vastly superior to any product from Toyota (not necessarily Lexus). Certainly Ford and Chevy products from 10 years ago are poor quality. But these companies today are different--hardly recognizable from their previous condition I'd say. I'll be surprised if the interiors of these newer generation Fords, etc. are as flimsy as you make them out to be.

C. McHale

You're right. But the concern is that Toyota is making the same mistakes now as those companies did back then.

They need to prove that they have learned from those mistakes and will move on where GM/Ford didn't or couldn't back then. And they will need to act swiftly.

flipside909

That's purely a subjective matter. I personally think the interiors of the newer F150's and the Silverados are not as good as their predecessors. The new ones don't feel substantial in anyway due the increased usage of plastic accents and trim.


I will have to disagree, my 09 ISF overall is well built despite the rattles that I had mentioned. I drove my 04 IS300 to 105k miles in about 3 years time before I got rid of it. I expect the same type of service with my ISF or with any Lexus or Toyota I plan to own in the future.

flipside909

Camry and ES are platform-mates of course, but you made the decision to step up to a different segment, entry level luxury. I would expect the interior of any entry level luxury car to exceed something that is a lot less.

I come from a Toyota family as well, but my family has deviated a few times and bought a few domestic vehicles. Trust me, i've done my fair share of making comparisons with every car I owned except the two I inherited from my parents (Corolla and Avalon). I tend to keep my vehicles for a long time and I put plenty of mileage on them too. Most all of them have hit well over 100k miles before I got rid of them. As for the previous 07 GS350 I owned, I had gotten rid of that in just over a year of ownership and 24k miles. I now have a 09 ISF that has since replaced the GS. I traded up for obvious reasons. Make no mistake, I considered the 3 series and 5 series BMW before I got my ISF last year. You are not really doing a disservice to yourself by not checking out the competition. If you know what you like, you will buy it regardless of what it costs or what it has.

You mention that the seat adjustment in the Camry was not to your liking. I'm curious but the seating position in the ES330 is similar to the Camry. But if you're comparing a power seat from an ES330 to a base model camry with cloth and manual controls, there's going to be an obvious difference. Some prefer soft, some prefer firm. I can't discount the Accord's attributes because I do prefer to rent either a Camry or Accord when i'm traveling. Both have their pros and cons.


Sure it's too early to say if the Camry's interior will be as trouble free later down the road. But with Toyota's pretty reliable track record, I really don't think there's much to worry about.

Don't be too assured of that. Lets switch from the Audio and compare a Toyota to a VW, or even a Toyota to a Nissan. I don't really think GM and Ford are much different. Sure their quality has increased, but are they really better?

Case in point, i've had 2 Chevy Malibu's as my company cars. One was a 2003 which I had until 95k miles, and the other is a 07 Malibu that currently has 55k miles. The 03 Malibu I had went into the service department for numerous interior electrical problems as well as the degradation of the driver's seat cloth and the foam padding in the middle of it's service life. I recently just picked up my 07 Malibu from the Chevy service department today. Aside from the normal maintenance and replacement of all 4 tires, i'm still experiencing electrical issues with inconsistent voltage to the power accessories. On top of that my Malibu s on it's 4th power steering rack (due to a inherent design flaw GM is aware about but has not put any TSB's or recalls on it). Sad to say but the replacement rack they installed in the car is failing again. I have to bring the car back to the shop tomorrow. That's going to be rack number 5 for this car. The only fix is another replacement rack. It's a known issue on this car that has been reported to NHTSA on several occassions. Where's the TSB? Where's the recall? None to this date. I have a newer 2007 Chevy, but it's been a mechanical/electrical fail. I hate to say it but the 2003 Malibu although not any better, has seen the service department less frequently for warranty type issues. Now tell me, has GM's build quality and reliability improved? I beg to differ.

pagemaster

Yeah that Tundra is a disaster. It all started when the Tundra was delayed. Then there the list of following issues

1. Camshaft failures
2. Spray painted dash
3. Tail gate peeling apart
4. C channel frame when the market when boxed
5. Bed bounce

Then there was the whole, built the Texas plant, start production in Indiana, then close the Indiana plant and move production completely to Texas

If you want to really see how weak the frame is, view this video, it shows how weak the rear part of the frame is...downright embarassasing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWjTbiYo3x0

pagemaster

The Camry is living off its perceived perception from its past. Past Camry's were outstanding, the current one is good but its interior is pretty pathetic based on how good the past one were.

Read what edmunds had to say....they echo your seat complaint. They sum it up pretty good. http://www.insideline.com/toyota/cam...ota-camry.html

Uncomfortable seats weren't our only issue with the Camry's interior. Build quality was less than perfect. Senior Content Editor Erin Riches noted in the logbook, "Talking about the fit and finish on a Camry is usually a formality. Call it class-leading and you're pretty much done. Or so I thought. After a night in our LE V6 last week, I came away a bit surprised and disappointed. Indeed, the car feels solid and likely to maintain its structural integrity through the next decade or two or three. But the number or misaligned panels in this car rivals our long-term Pontiac Solstice."

Edmunds.com Editor in Chief Karl Brauer also made mention of the Camry's interior. Karl noted, "When I got into the vehicle this morning I peered over the steering wheel spoke to insert the key. What I saw staring back at me were several large scratches on the steering wheel column plastic. Even careless key placement shouldn't be causing this level of wear on a 4-month-old Camry. This is further evidence against assuming a Toyota badge automatically means impeccable interior material quality."

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

I've sat in my friend's 07 camry once and I agree it feels just plain to me. It's more middle of the pack than anything else. I don't think it's bad...but its definitely not the Toyota I use to know. Of course this is coming from someone who use to drive a 1993 Camry.

flipside909

So you are unhappy with your Tundra. Which plant was it manufactured at?

Have you experienced any of the issues that are known to the 2nd generation Tundra? If so which?

As far as I can see Toyota is actively addressing any issues and providing a resolution to the problems.

1. Known issue, acknowledged by Toyota and they have a resolution. The problem was not a huge problem and seems to be under control.

2. Do you realize most manufacturers make dash components with raw thermoplastic pellets which have no color? Toyota is not the only one. Poor prep can easily cause paint to not adhere to the desired target surface.

3. Toyota engineered a tailgate which is slam proof. An internal memo was issued regarding this issue and it seems this is only pertinent to 2007 MY.

4. Toyota knows how to build trucks. Just because the others (big 3) are doing it doesn't mean they have to follow suit. They have plenty of reliable and proven truck history and building knowledge. This sheds light on why Toyota went this route. READ ARTICLE HERE.

5. Ever ride in a new body style or previous body style Ford F150 on concrete freeway pavement with several expansion joints with no load in the rear? That's right, a horrible ride. I'm pretty sure when Toyota designed the C channel frame, NVH was a big factor in design. We all know trucks don't have the best ride on not-so-perfect pavement. That youtube vid is an old propaganda video for Ford training.

Lets look at the facts here. The scenarios that training video shows the trucks being driven on pavement conditions most people will NEVER encounter. Also, it's very unlikely any truck owner is going to drive their truck in those conditions at that speed. Majority of the trucks spend their time on public pavement. It's pretty clear the conditions are over-exaggerated for any driver or any truck. Body on frame design, no matter what type of truck it is, it's going to have a heavier suspension than a regular unibody construction vehicle. If you want strength, you are going to compromise comfort for that. It's probable that you will not encounter the issues that you have mentioned. But if you have, please do share.

It's comical but i've driven all those brands of trucks on the freeway and regular city streets. But comfort level in regular driving conditions, they rank as they perform on that test track in the video. Not surprising but the most comfortable ride came from the Tundra, and the harshest ride came from the F150. The Silverado is a definitely softer than the F150, but a bit harsher than the Tundra. There's no doubt the F150 is the best selling fullsize pick up truck in America. When it all comes down to it, it's up to the consumer on what to buy. A lot of the issues that you mentioned seem to have no bearing on your own Tundra...or do they?

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

Let me get this straight, the current run of the mill cars like the Camry do not use as many hard plastic due the the notion that they're harmful, yet Lexus vehicles are immune to this with their soft-touch plastics because...? Just trying to clear up a few things