The perfect Lexus line-up?
02-03-10, 11:21 AM
#1
The perfect Lexus line-up?
With the upcoming changes in CAFE Standards, future economic outlook, and consumer desires & tastes:
What would be your perfect Lexus lineup?
My suggestion:
CS-h : entry level hybrid sport wagon (based on LF-Ch)
HS-h : entry level hybrid touring sedan
--Entry level hybrids will address the need to complement FWD hybrid technology. Keep it efficient, compact, (relatively) light-weight, and low cost to save money and fuel.
IS : entry level compact sport sedan (offer an I4 & V6)
IS-C : entry level compact sport coupe (fixed top) and hardtop convertible
IS-F : high performance compact sedan (turbo V6)
--BMW has the right formula. Sporty sedans and coupes that are light and confident. A hardtop convertible is appropriate in this class due to competition. No hybrid option; the added weight is not appropriate for the cars' function.
ES : midsized FWD sedan (offer an I4 & V6)
ES-h : hybrid variant
--Lexus knows how to coddle their customers. But the ES can do well with an I4 engine and hybrid variant. It will appeal to the masses because of its larger size and utilitarian design, compared to other hybrids such the Prius and HS250h.
GS : midsized RWD/AWD four-door coupe (V6) [similar to MB CLS]
GS-F : high performance variant (V8, perhaps a turbo?)
--The GS needs to be different than the ES in terms of styling/design, performance, and value. Making the GS a four-door coupe would tell everyone that it isn't a RWD ES350. Let it be performance savvy. Give it the F. I believe a one-engine optioned V6 is appropriate, and a performance variant turbo V8 can address the need for speed. Jaguar is doing it right with the XF and XFR.
LS : full sized RWD/AWD sedan (V6 and V8 variants)
LS-h : full sized RWD hybrid variant
--Lexus also knows how to handle the LS flagship. It doesn't need an F model, but the Sport model is a great option. A V6 would be appropriate with the changing times, and a hybrid option is a must. What the LS needs to learn is how to keep the weight down.
Roadster + F : compact mid-engine RWD two-seater with I4 and V6 variant. Gotta have something frivolously fun...
SC : midsized RWD two-door coupe and soft-top convertible (V6) [similar to Jaguar XK]
SC-F : high performance variant (V8)
--The SC needs to go back to its roots: a sporty 2+2 coupe. An "entry" level V6 would be good, and a V8 F variant would be appropriate, especially if it's a turbo, which the GS-F should have as well (the SC will most likely share the same chassis as the 4GS). To maintain it's performance credibility, a soft-top convertible would keep the weight down. Jaguar, BMW, Aston, and Bentley aren't losing luxury credibility with a soft-top; so it'll work.
LFA : exotic performance coupe/cabrio (V10)
--I wish it could stay for more than one generation. Perhaps a new (and less expensive) version will appear in the future? I do hope so...
JX/IX : compact FWD/AWD crossover (I4, V6, and hybrid variants)
--I don't know why Lexus hasn't made one yet. No word about it either. This will be a great product to compete with similar cars offered by BMW, Audi, and other makes.
RX : midsized FWD/AWD crossover (V6 and hybrid variants)
--The formula works now. I doubt Lexus will change it. Perhaps the reason why they haven't made a smaller compact crossover (JX/IX) is to prevent inter-brand competition from the RX.
GX : "midsized" AWD SUV (V8, turbo V6?)
--The new GX is what it should be: a competent luxurious SUV that blends eight-passenger urban functionality with towing capacity when needed.
LX : full sized AWD SUV (V8)
--The LX (Land Cruiser) is iconic, and will live on, albeit a very small niche market. It addresses what the GX cannot: rural/off-road dominance, towing capacity, and rugged performance; all the while having tuxedo-like classiness.
Care to agree? Disagree?
DISCUSS.
What would be your perfect Lexus lineup?
My suggestion:
CS-h : entry level hybrid sport wagon (based on LF-Ch)
HS-h : entry level hybrid touring sedan
--Entry level hybrids will address the need to complement FWD hybrid technology. Keep it efficient, compact, (relatively) light-weight, and low cost to save money and fuel.
IS : entry level compact sport sedan (offer an I4 & V6)
IS-C : entry level compact sport coupe (fixed top) and hardtop convertible
IS-F : high performance compact sedan (turbo V6)
--BMW has the right formula. Sporty sedans and coupes that are light and confident. A hardtop convertible is appropriate in this class due to competition. No hybrid option; the added weight is not appropriate for the cars' function.
ES : midsized FWD sedan (offer an I4 & V6)
ES-h : hybrid variant
--Lexus knows how to coddle their customers. But the ES can do well with an I4 engine and hybrid variant. It will appeal to the masses because of its larger size and utilitarian design, compared to other hybrids such the Prius and HS250h.
GS : midsized RWD/AWD four-door coupe (V6) [similar to MB CLS]
GS-F : high performance variant (V8, perhaps a turbo?)
--The GS needs to be different than the ES in terms of styling/design, performance, and value. Making the GS a four-door coupe would tell everyone that it isn't a RWD ES350. Let it be performance savvy. Give it the F. I believe a one-engine optioned V6 is appropriate, and a performance variant turbo V8 can address the need for speed. Jaguar is doing it right with the XF and XFR.
LS : full sized RWD/AWD sedan (V6 and V8 variants)
LS-h : full sized RWD hybrid variant
--Lexus also knows how to handle the LS flagship. It doesn't need an F model, but the Sport model is a great option. A V6 would be appropriate with the changing times, and a hybrid option is a must. What the LS needs to learn is how to keep the weight down.
Roadster + F : compact mid-engine RWD two-seater with I4 and V6 variant. Gotta have something frivolously fun...
SC : midsized RWD two-door coupe and soft-top convertible (V6) [similar to Jaguar XK]
SC-F : high performance variant (V8)
--The SC needs to go back to its roots: a sporty 2+2 coupe. An "entry" level V6 would be good, and a V8 F variant would be appropriate, especially if it's a turbo, which the GS-F should have as well (the SC will most likely share the same chassis as the 4GS). To maintain it's performance credibility, a soft-top convertible would keep the weight down. Jaguar, BMW, Aston, and Bentley aren't losing luxury credibility with a soft-top; so it'll work.
LFA : exotic performance coupe/cabrio (V10)
--I wish it could stay for more than one generation. Perhaps a new (and less expensive) version will appear in the future? I do hope so...
JX/IX : compact FWD/AWD crossover (I4, V6, and hybrid variants)
--I don't know why Lexus hasn't made one yet. No word about it either. This will be a great product to compete with similar cars offered by BMW, Audi, and other makes.
RX : midsized FWD/AWD crossover (V6 and hybrid variants)
--The formula works now. I doubt Lexus will change it. Perhaps the reason why they haven't made a smaller compact crossover (JX/IX) is to prevent inter-brand competition from the RX.
GX : "midsized" AWD SUV (V8, turbo V6?)
--The new GX is what it should be: a competent luxurious SUV that blends eight-passenger urban functionality with towing capacity when needed.
LX : full sized AWD SUV (V8)
--The LX (Land Cruiser) is iconic, and will live on, albeit a very small niche market. It addresses what the GX cannot: rural/off-road dominance, towing capacity, and rugged performance; all the while having tuxedo-like classiness.
Care to agree? Disagree?
DISCUSS.
02-03-10, 11:37 AM
#2
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I pretty much agree overall.
Lexus should bring its own version of the FT-86. It would be perfect 1 Series competition.
The 1 Series isnt' styled all that nicely, it's just OK. A Lexus FT-86 variant would be better.
Nicely-equipped for $30K (no NAV or Levinson, but HIDs and Lexus-grade materials), 220HP, 6-speed manual, 30MPG, it would CLEAN UP.
Lexus should bring its own version of the FT-86. It would be perfect 1 Series competition.
The 1 Series isnt' styled all that nicely, it's just OK. A Lexus FT-86 variant would be better.
Nicely-equipped for $30K (no NAV or Levinson, but HIDs and Lexus-grade materials), 220HP, 6-speed manual, 30MPG, it would CLEAN UP.
02-03-10, 11:39 AM
#3
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LS : full sized RWD/AWD sedan (V6 and V8 variants)
LS-h : full sized RWD hybrid variant
--Lexus also knows how to handle the LS flagship. It doesn't need an F model, but the Sport model is a great option. A V6 would be appropriate with the changing times, and a hybrid option is a must. What the LS needs to learn is how to keep the weight dow
LS-h : full sized RWD hybrid variant
--Lexus also knows how to handle the LS flagship. It doesn't need an F model, but the Sport model is a great option. A V6 would be appropriate with the changing times, and a hybrid option is a must. What the LS needs to learn is how to keep the weight dow
02-03-10, 11:40 AM
#4
having the gs as a 4 door coupe will be a disaster. that means no car in lexus can go against e and 5, something lexus can't afford to go without. es can't come close to those cars from bmw and mb
no more soft top convertible. i just never think they should belong in luxury segment, and it will defeat what lexus has been good at -- quietness
otherwise i think the list is more or less what i have in mind
no more soft top convertible. i just never think they should belong in luxury segment, and it will defeat what lexus has been good at -- quietness
otherwise i think the list is more or less what i have in mind
02-03-10, 11:49 AM
#5
Lexus Connoisseur
02-03-10, 12:00 PM
#6
Great lineup!!! I'd love to see a Lexus GT 300 / GT-F roadster, and bring on the 3SC and a regular coupe IS-C!
As for the GS, I flirted with the 4-door-coupe idea, particularly with the ES providing midsize cannibalization, but as Lexus goes more international and the ES isn't present in many markets (Europe, Japan, Russia, Australia, etc.), the GS needs to up its room to compete with the E/5/A6/XF. There was an 'XS 350' 4-door-coupe idea posted a while back...perhaps a GS-based version a la CLS/E or Passat/CC?
As for the GS, I flirted with the 4-door-coupe idea, particularly with the ES providing midsize cannibalization, but as Lexus goes more international and the ES isn't present in many markets (Europe, Japan, Russia, Australia, etc.), the GS needs to up its room to compete with the E/5/A6/XF. There was an 'XS 350' 4-door-coupe idea posted a while back...perhaps a GS-based version a la CLS/E or Passat/CC?
02-03-10, 12:21 PM
#7
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Interesting ideas, and I love threads like this haha. But I don't like all your ides because I think the ES and Hs would compete with each other, and I don't like the idea of an I4 IS either. Here are my ideas:
LF-Ch:
Entry level hybrid available as hatchback or coupe. The hatchback can share it's powerplant with the Prius and get 50mpg for about $28K, the Coupe should get a more powerful hybrid powerplant to compete with the 128i.
IS 250/350/F:
The IS line as it is now is strong, but the sedan needs to be reworked for more interior space, while remaining compact and sporty. A Coupe version of the 350 and F needs to be added also.
HS:
The HS needs more power and fuel efficiency. It needs to be upgraded to the newer 2.5L or 2.7L I4 engines and it needs to produce over 200hp. I feel the HS is in the same place as the old ES250 was and with a performance boost it might just hit a sweet spot in the market. Not only does the HS's lackluster performance need some help, it needs improved efficiency as well. The HS should be averaging 40mpg on EPA.
ES:
The ES is a great car right now, but I feel it needs to move upmarket. The HS can take its place as the entry level FWD luxury sedan. The next ES should be a dedicated hybrid, that uses the RX's hybrid powerplant exclusively. The ES should have 300hp and get 35mpg and be avaliable in FWD and AWD. Price starting at or around $40K
GS:
The GS needs to be more competitive in the midclass luxury segment. In order to do that it needs to be as big as the competition inside and out, and it needs to be as luxurious as the LS. Engine-wise the 3.5L is fine, but as far as the V8 Lexus could either use the LS's engine with 380hp to match the E class or they could use the IS-F's 5.0L engine in order to match the 5 series. There needs to be a twin turbo or or supercharged F model, that is fuel efficient enough to avoid the gas tax while being powerful enough to keep up with the M5 and E AMG.
LS:
The LS is ok right now and it just needs to build on it's current success. An entry level V6 hybrid akin to the new S400 should be offered, and the V8 LS should move up to the IS-F's 5.0L engine (making it a 400hp LS500). On the topline the LS600hL should get 500hp in it's next iteration.
SR?:
I agree with PhilipMSPT that an entry level roadster akin to the BMW Z4 should be offered.
SC:
The next SC should essentially be a GS Coupe and Roadster. Not in the vein of the 6 series, but as PhilipMSPT said in the vein of the Jaguar XK. It can share the GS's V8 and F engines, but I don't think a V6 should be offered (that's what the IS C and a lesser roadster should cover). It should be available as Coupe and softtop convertible.
JX/IX:
An entry level CUV is an interesting concept. If Lexus does go that route (which all signs are pointing toward one), they should base it on the IS and make it SPORTY and RWD. If they don't then I don't think it'll succeed (unless they make it a small I4 dedicated hybrid CUV like a jacked up LF-Ch?)
RX:
The RX is fine. The only thing I think should be offered is a LWB model with 3 rows of seats in the future.
LF-Ch:
Entry level hybrid available as hatchback or coupe. The hatchback can share it's powerplant with the Prius and get 50mpg for about $28K, the Coupe should get a more powerful hybrid powerplant to compete with the 128i.
IS 250/350/F:
The IS line as it is now is strong, but the sedan needs to be reworked for more interior space, while remaining compact and sporty. A Coupe version of the 350 and F needs to be added also.
HS:
The HS needs more power and fuel efficiency. It needs to be upgraded to the newer 2.5L or 2.7L I4 engines and it needs to produce over 200hp. I feel the HS is in the same place as the old ES250 was and with a performance boost it might just hit a sweet spot in the market. Not only does the HS's lackluster performance need some help, it needs improved efficiency as well. The HS should be averaging 40mpg on EPA.
ES:
The ES is a great car right now, but I feel it needs to move upmarket. The HS can take its place as the entry level FWD luxury sedan. The next ES should be a dedicated hybrid, that uses the RX's hybrid powerplant exclusively. The ES should have 300hp and get 35mpg and be avaliable in FWD and AWD. Price starting at or around $40K
GS:
The GS needs to be more competitive in the midclass luxury segment. In order to do that it needs to be as big as the competition inside and out, and it needs to be as luxurious as the LS. Engine-wise the 3.5L is fine, but as far as the V8 Lexus could either use the LS's engine with 380hp to match the E class or they could use the IS-F's 5.0L engine in order to match the 5 series. There needs to be a twin turbo or or supercharged F model, that is fuel efficient enough to avoid the gas tax while being powerful enough to keep up with the M5 and E AMG.
LS:
The LS is ok right now and it just needs to build on it's current success. An entry level V6 hybrid akin to the new S400 should be offered, and the V8 LS should move up to the IS-F's 5.0L engine (making it a 400hp LS500). On the topline the LS600hL should get 500hp in it's next iteration.
SR?:
I agree with PhilipMSPT that an entry level roadster akin to the BMW Z4 should be offered.
SC:
The next SC should essentially be a GS Coupe and Roadster. Not in the vein of the 6 series, but as PhilipMSPT said in the vein of the Jaguar XK. It can share the GS's V8 and F engines, but I don't think a V6 should be offered (that's what the IS C and a lesser roadster should cover). It should be available as Coupe and softtop convertible.
JX/IX:
An entry level CUV is an interesting concept. If Lexus does go that route (which all signs are pointing toward one), they should base it on the IS and make it SPORTY and RWD. If they don't then I don't think it'll succeed (unless they make it a small I4 dedicated hybrid CUV like a jacked up LF-Ch?)
RX:
The RX is fine. The only thing I think should be offered is a LWB model with 3 rows of seats in the future.
Last edited by (Cj); 02-03-10 at 01:30 PM.
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02-03-10, 12:56 PM
#11
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Feeling too lazy to trot out a whole detail-filled lineup like a couple of you have done, but here are some comments on my areas of interest, the smaller side of Lexus:
CT - May as well call the upcoming production version of the Lexus LF-Ch concept by its likely production prefix (see http://my.is/forums/f41/lexus-c-prem...t-200h-394367/ ). I'd certainly hope that the trademarked CT 400h moniker translates into an eventual version with a detuned, more economical version of the Lexus RX 450h's 2GR-FXE hybrid powertrain to provide 4-liter V8-like performance. If Lexus would see fit to equip it with all-wheel-drive and a CVT with some of the clever programming tricks of the IS F's 8-speed automatic (forget about a clutch-pedal manual with a hybrid), they may well create a new-age luxury hot hatch that takes the Subaru Impreza STI / Mitsubishi Lancer EVO ethos to a whole new place or, more accurately, create an unexpected rival to the never-sold-in-North America Audi S3.
HS - Even though driving it proved a pleasant surprise, it could benefit from a bit sportier style and image. In spite of its 100mm longer wheelbase versus the CT, I could see HS being a one-generation wonder that would be replaced by a 3-box CT sedan bodystyle.
IS - Not much to add to previous commentary. I'd hope the 3rd-gen would be smaller and lighter than the 2nd-gen, more akin to the 1st-gen, but with a livable back seat thanks to slimmer, smartly contoured and comfortable front seats. A 4-cylinder version for other markets is fine by me, but I wouldn't bother with it for North America. Also, a quartet of body styles (sedan, coupe, retractable-hardtop convertible and sportwagon son of SportCross) is a must.
SR - My given name for a Lexus derivative of FT-86. This would be a strictly 2-seat roadster (retractable hardtop or soft top, I don't care) with a Subaru flat six to take on the Audi TT, BMW Z4 and Mercedes SLK (see http://my.is/forums/f41/what-should-...t-deux-365580/ )
CT - May as well call the upcoming production version of the Lexus LF-Ch concept by its likely production prefix (see http://my.is/forums/f41/lexus-c-prem...t-200h-394367/ ). I'd certainly hope that the trademarked CT 400h moniker translates into an eventual version with a detuned, more economical version of the Lexus RX 450h's 2GR-FXE hybrid powertrain to provide 4-liter V8-like performance. If Lexus would see fit to equip it with all-wheel-drive and a CVT with some of the clever programming tricks of the IS F's 8-speed automatic (forget about a clutch-pedal manual with a hybrid), they may well create a new-age luxury hot hatch that takes the Subaru Impreza STI / Mitsubishi Lancer EVO ethos to a whole new place or, more accurately, create an unexpected rival to the never-sold-in-North America Audi S3.
HS - Even though driving it proved a pleasant surprise, it could benefit from a bit sportier style and image. In spite of its 100mm longer wheelbase versus the CT, I could see HS being a one-generation wonder that would be replaced by a 3-box CT sedan bodystyle.
IS - Not much to add to previous commentary. I'd hope the 3rd-gen would be smaller and lighter than the 2nd-gen, more akin to the 1st-gen, but with a livable back seat thanks to slimmer, smartly contoured and comfortable front seats. A 4-cylinder version for other markets is fine by me, but I wouldn't bother with it for North America. Also, a quartet of body styles (sedan, coupe, retractable-hardtop convertible and sportwagon son of SportCross) is a must.
SR - My given name for a Lexus derivative of FT-86. This would be a strictly 2-seat roadster (retractable hardtop or soft top, I don't care) with a Subaru flat six to take on the Audi TT, BMW Z4 and Mercedes SLK (see http://my.is/forums/f41/what-should-...t-deux-365580/ )
02-03-10, 04:47 PM
#14
I think the GS and the SC are in most desperate need of a makeover, both in function and performance.
The GS needs to function like a sport saloon. The SC needs to function as a sport GT.
Right now, the GS is suffers from being smaller than the ES, not as agile as the IS, and almost priced as an LS. It needs to find a way to stand out and say "I'm better than these guys in other ways..."
The SC has nothing over the IS-C other than better quality materials and craftsmanship; the IS350-C is less expensive, faster, modification-worthy, more gas efficient, less to insure, modern, more technologically advanced, handles better, and has more usable rear seats.
The GS needs to function like a sport saloon. The SC needs to function as a sport GT.
Right now, the GS is suffers from being smaller than the ES, not as agile as the IS, and almost priced as an LS. It needs to find a way to stand out and say "I'm better than these guys in other ways..."
The SC has nothing over the IS-C other than better quality materials and craftsmanship; the IS350-C is less expensive, faster, modification-worthy, more gas efficient, less to insure, modern, more technologically advanced, handles better, and has more usable rear seats.
02-03-10, 05:54 PM
#15
I think the GS and the SC are in most desperate need of a makeover, both in function and performance.
The GS needs to function like a sport saloon. The SC needs to function as a sport GT.
Right now, the GS is suffers from being smaller than the ES, not as agile as the IS, and almost priced as an LS. It needs to find a way to stand out and say "I'm better than these guys in other ways..."
The SC has nothing over the IS-C other than better quality materials and craftsmanship; the IS350-C is less expensive, faster, modification-worthy, more gas efficient, less to insure, modern, more technologically advanced, handles better, and has more usable rear seats.
The GS needs to function like a sport saloon. The SC needs to function as a sport GT.
Right now, the GS is suffers from being smaller than the ES, not as agile as the IS, and almost priced as an LS. It needs to find a way to stand out and say "I'm better than these guys in other ways..."
The SC has nothing over the IS-C other than better quality materials and craftsmanship; the IS350-C is less expensive, faster, modification-worthy, more gas efficient, less to insure, modern, more technologically advanced, handles better, and has more usable rear seats.