Road & Track on the Lexus LS460 Sport
#166
Lexus Fanatic
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So you always shout "get behind the cars and drive" yet you are here telling people about the LS sport steering, which you have not driven?
![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
This is a LEXUS, if you want a BMW 7 series, buy one. Clearly people like the way the LS steers.
If the Lexus steered just like a 7 series, then people would find something else to complain about.
If the Lexus steered just like a 7 series, then people would find something else to complain about.
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#167
Lexus Connoisseur
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The sport image was there for those who seeked it. The same can be said for this new LS Sport from Lexus.
Almost is not good enough in this arena of motoring. Why should one in the market for such a vehicle settle for half an effort? Make the steering right. They've had 20 odd years to get the steering right.. Lexus should of spent more R&D on make this vehicle a true competitor to large sport sedans from Europe.
Last edited by flipside909; 02-16-10 at 12:46 PM.
#168
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Question: How old were you in 1987 to know what the deal was with this car?? Please don't rely on magazines.
Well if you click that mouse back a few times, you will notice that Ryan mentioned the steering on the LS Sport is vague so to speak. The steering is still one of the thorns on the side of Lexus vehicles including this sport LS model. I've driven the standard fare Ls460 @ various Lexus driving events (search threads for reference) & await the opportunity to try this one out.
If vague steering is a part of that equation then more power to those that love that.
Vague steering on a vehicle marketed as sport just seems a bit unorthodox imo.
Well if you click that mouse back a few times, you will notice that Ryan mentioned the steering on the LS Sport is vague so to speak. The steering is still one of the thorns on the side of Lexus vehicles including this sport LS model. I've driven the standard fare Ls460 @ various Lexus driving events (search threads for reference) & await the opportunity to try this one out.
If vague steering is a part of that equation then more power to those that love that.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W201
AMG was not part of Mercedes-Benz when the 190 was first produced, but a separate racing and tuning company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-AMG
In 1990, with AMG having become a high-profile purveyor of modified Mercedes cars, Daimler-Benz AG and AMG signed a contract of cooperation, allowing AMG to leverage Daimler-Benz's extensive dealer network and leading to commonly developed vehicles [B](the first one being the Mercedes-Benz C 36 AMG, in 1993). [/B]On 1 January 1999 DaimlerChrysler, as it was called between 1998 and 2007, acquired 51 percent of AMG shares, and AMG was renamed to Mercedes-AMG GmbH.
So you basically have showed people an aftermarket Mercedes Benz which I and Ryan stated. At that point, it is like us posting pics of aftermarket LS vehicles like WALD or TOM'S.
![Egads!](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/pat.gif)
![](http://lexusenthusiast.com/images/weblog/07-07-16-toms-lexus-ls460.jpg)
![](http://lexusenthusiast.com/images/weblog/07-06-06-wald-ls460-bodykit.jpg)
You seem to have something against people that read.
![Sad](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/sad.gif)
![Confused](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif)
Odd you forget to mention when BMW has been blasted for loose steering especially compared to older models. The E46 steering was actually updated and fixed b/c of customer complaints. Every new review says the same, steering is looser. Don't read new 5 series reviews without the sport and electric do-dads.
Last edited by LexFather; 02-16-10 at 12:53 PM.
#169
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[QUOTE=flipside909;5233251]
I am not disputing this. Many back then dollied these cars with AMG parts. People did see "sport appeal" of the S class back then thus proving my point![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
People who adorn their LS see the "sport appeal" of their cars also. But, the steering will still be an issue regardless of the add-ons.
Because the Europeans run this genre of vehicle and will continue to be the barometer for which all is measured. If you slap "sport" on your ultra luxry sedan, it better deliver against the best of them.
Sure.. Back in the late 80's Mercedes offered AMG kits & parts including wheels, lowering springs etc. for the 560 SEL. Many 560 SEL owners especially in NYC, were sporting this variety of Mercedes SEL sedans.
![](http://imcdb.org/images/133/338.jpg)
Nice pic! But do realize AMG was not a factory program until 1993 (C36 AMG). AMG was like any other aftermarket tuner like Lorinser, Brabus, CEC and etc in that era.
![](http://imcdb.org/images/133/338.jpg)
Nice pic! But do realize AMG was not a factory program until 1993 (C36 AMG). AMG was like any other aftermarket tuner like Lorinser, Brabus, CEC and etc in that era.
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
You are right. That's why there are aftermarket tuners for the LS even before the in-house trim of a "Sport" package. Recall the offerings that TRD Japan, Tom's, Wald, etc had for the LS and Celsior of past times? Some of you forget that.
Why does Lexus need to make it a true competitor to the Europeans? If it's not good enough for you, then that's what the competitive options are for. 1SICKLEX made a good point about this prior. Lexus is doing well in it's own right. The Europeans until lately started offering things like "luxury suvs" and "hybrid" powertrain vehicles. Who created that trend first? BMW and Mercedes did not.
#170
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Here are the facts we have tried to explain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W201
AMG was not part of Mercedes-Benz when the 190 was first produced, but a separate racing and tuning company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-AMG
In 1990, with AMG having become a high-profile purveyor of modified Mercedes cars, Daimler-Benz AG and AMG signed a contract of cooperation, allowing AMG to leverage Daimler-Benz's extensive dealer network and leading to commonly developed vehicles [B](the first one being the Mercedes-Benz C 36 AMG, in 1993). [/B]On 1 January 1999 DaimlerChrysler, as it was called between 1998 and 2007, acquired 51 percent of AMG shares, and AMG was renamed to Mercedes-AMG GmbH.
So you basically have showed people an aftermarket Mercedes Benz which I and Ryan stated. At that point, it is like us posting pics of aftermarket LS vehicles like WALD or TOM'S.![Egads!](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/pat.gif)
![](http://lexusenthusiast.com/images/weblog/07-07-16-toms-lexus-ls460.jpg)
![](http://lexusenthusiast.com/images/weblog/07-06-06-wald-ls460-bodykit.jpg)
You seem to have something against people that read.![Sad](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/sad.gif)
I suggest you actually do some reading instead of continuing to post misinformation and leveraging anything against Lexus on a LEXUS forum.
Odd you forget to mention when BMW has been blasted for loose steering especially compared to older models. The E46 steering was actually updated and fixed b/c of customer complaints. Every new review says the same, steering is looser. Don't read new 5 series reviews without the sport and electric do-dads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W201
AMG was not part of Mercedes-Benz when the 190 was first produced, but a separate racing and tuning company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-AMG
In 1990, with AMG having become a high-profile purveyor of modified Mercedes cars, Daimler-Benz AG and AMG signed a contract of cooperation, allowing AMG to leverage Daimler-Benz's extensive dealer network and leading to commonly developed vehicles [B](the first one being the Mercedes-Benz C 36 AMG, in 1993). [/B]On 1 January 1999 DaimlerChrysler, as it was called between 1998 and 2007, acquired 51 percent of AMG shares, and AMG was renamed to Mercedes-AMG GmbH.
So you basically have showed people an aftermarket Mercedes Benz which I and Ryan stated. At that point, it is like us posting pics of aftermarket LS vehicles like WALD or TOM'S.
![Egads!](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/pat.gif)
![](http://lexusenthusiast.com/images/weblog/07-07-16-toms-lexus-ls460.jpg)
![](http://lexusenthusiast.com/images/weblog/07-06-06-wald-ls460-bodykit.jpg)
You seem to have something against people that read.
![Sad](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/sad.gif)
![Confused](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif)
Odd you forget to mention when BMW has been blasted for loose steering especially compared to older models. The E46 steering was actually updated and fixed b/c of customer complaints. Every new review says the same, steering is looser. Don't read new 5 series reviews without the sport and electric do-dads.
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
#171
Lexus Connoisseur
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People who adorn their LS see the "sport appeal" of their cars also. But, the steering will still be an issue regardless of the add-ons.
Because the Europeans run this genre of vehicle and will continue to be the barometer for which all is measured. If you slap "sport" on your ultra luxry sedan, it better deliver against the best of them.
#172
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (3)
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Almost is not good enough in this arena of motoring. Why should one in the market for such a vehicle settle for half an effort? Make the steering right. They've had 20 odd years to get the steering right.. Lexus should of spent more R&D on make this vehicle a true competitor to large sport sedans from Europe.
For instance, I love the steering in my LS400, tolerate it in either of my GS430's, but I absolutely HATE the steering in my wifes 3 series - its way too twetchy and oversensitive, with no error forgiveness.
And my brothers 7 series that I drove a few times, the steering is just whatever... its there I guess.
Clearly the LS460 sport isn't marketed as a mass produced car. It will appeal to a small number of customer who love the standard 460 but with for a sportier suspension. This isn't made to compete with AMG models from Mercedes.
#173
Lexus Champion
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[B]
Odd you forget to mention when BMW has been blasted for loose steering especially compared to older models. The E46 steering was actually updated and fixed b/c of customer complaints. Every new review says the same, steering is looser. Don't read new 5 series reviews without the sport and electric do-dads.
Odd you forget to mention when BMW has been blasted for loose steering especially compared to older models. The E46 steering was actually updated and fixed b/c of customer complaints. Every new review says the same, steering is looser. Don't read new 5 series reviews without the sport and electric do-dads.
#174
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
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Up until the current generation of 5 series, the v8 version of the 5er came with recirculating ball steering, which was as loose, anemic and horrible as any 1980 American sedan. Thats why I sometimes laugh when people complain about steering on GS and then praise the steering on last gen 540.
I remember the recirculating-ball steering on BMW V8s....they kept it for a while, even after they switched to rack-and-pinion on the fours and straight-sixes. Company reps told me they used that design on the V8s because they didn't (yet) trust the durability of the rack-and-pinion systems with the heavier V8s. Eventually, of course, racks became standard throughout the line...as with Mercedes-Benz, who also delayed it on their V8s.
Some big American pickups, I believe, still use recirculating ball on higher-GVWR-rated trucks designed to carry heavier loads.
Recirculating-ball systems, in general, are less precise feeling, and DO develop more free play across the middle than rack-and-pinion, especially as they wear and age a little. But here, once again, BMW's excellence in steering/chassis engineering stands out...their recirculating-ball systems, as I remember them, were almost as precise and tactile-feeling as the racks.
#175
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I remember the recirculating-ball steering on BMW V8s....they kept it for a while, even after they switched to rack-and-pinion on the fours and straight-sixes. Company reps told me they used that design on the V8s because they didn't (yet) trust the durability of the rack-and-pinion systems with the heavier V8s. Eventually, of course, racks became standard throughout the line...as with Mercedes-Benz, who also delayed it on their V8s.
Some big American pickups, I believe, still use recirculating ball on higher-GVWR-rated trucks designed to carry heavier loads.
Some big American pickups, I believe, still use recirculating ball on higher-GVWR-rated trucks designed to carry heavier loads.
I don't know about reasons why they kept these systems, maybe they did in fact have to do with durability, but its true that MB also used them in their S class until W220.
Both BMW and MB steering recirculating ball gearboxes were built by a German company ZF.
In any case, besides some heavy duty trucks, nobody uses these anymore. Rack-and-pinion systems are clearly superior.
Recirculating-ball systems, in general, are less precise feeling, and DO develop more free play across the middle than rack-and-pinion, especially as they wear and age a little. But here, once again, BMW's excellence in steering/chassis engineering stands out...their recirculating-ball systems, as I remember them, were almost as precise and tactile-feeling as the racks.
For me personally, I prefer Lexus approach.
#177
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Which a lot of people love. No car is perfect and no car does everything. Quite frankly driving these 4500 lbs 200 inch or so cars hard loses the plot some. Are you THAT late for that dinner party?
Surely at this level a person owns multiple vehicles.
I think the LS sport is a fine extension for the LS line and I don't have expectations of it being a GT3.
And quite frankly the Porsche Panamera makes the 7/S/A8/LS etc all look like Cadillacs.
I doubt it. Otherwise you would not have posted cars basically IRRELEVANT to this thread. (again)
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
I think the LS sport is a fine extension for the LS line and I don't have expectations of it being a GT3.
And quite frankly the Porsche Panamera makes the 7/S/A8/LS etc all look like Cadillacs.
I doubt it. Otherwise you would not have posted cars basically IRRELEVANT to this thread. (again)
#178
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But wasn't the first "global" midsize luxury brand SUV the Mercedes ML?
The LS460S does a decent job at what its supposed to do(A luxury fullsize sedan with a bit of sporty sprinkles on top).... Not quite as a canyon carver as an S500 with the AMG sports pack, but if you were looking for a sports sedan I'm not sure why one would not just go Alpina B7 or S63/65....
Last edited by lexusscturbo; 02-16-10 at 06:33 PM.
#179
Lexus Fanatic
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I don't know about reasons why they kept these systems, maybe they did in fact have to do with durability, but its true that MB also used them in their S class until W220.
Both BMW and MB steering recirculating ball gearboxes were built by a German company ZF.
In any case, besides some heavy duty trucks, nobody uses these anymore. Rack-and-pinion systems are clearly superior.
Both BMW and MB steering recirculating ball gearboxes were built by a German company ZF.
In any case, besides some heavy duty trucks, nobody uses these anymore. Rack-and-pinion systems are clearly superior.
I am of the opinion that BMW's chassis and steering engineering is often over-hyped out of proportion. I don't want to sway this thread too far off topic, or get too technical, but lets just say that Lexus and BMW exercise a very different approach when it comes to building a "sporty" chassis. Both have its pluses and minuses.
For me personally, I prefer Lexus approach.
For me personally, I prefer Lexus approach.
So, in a nutshell, there ARE things, IMO, you can criticize BMWs for (I-Drive, Chris-Bangle styling, needlessly complex controls, so-so paint jobs, unreliable electronics, etc....), but the chassis engineering is DEFINITELY not one of them.
#180
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Definitely handling and chassis dynamics are BMW's strength, but if the reviews are to be believed, the LS 460 Sport rivals the standard 7-series in driving dynamics much more closely than it ever. I'd love the opportunity to test drive the LS 460 Sport to experience this for myself.