DASHOCKER

iTrader: (2)

Question: How old were you in 1987 to know what the deal was with this car?? Please don't rely on magazines.

Well if you click that mouse back a few times, you will notice that Ryan mentioned the steering on the LS Sport is vague so to speak. The steering is still one of the thorns on the side of Lexus vehicles including this sport LS model. I've driven the standard fare Ls460 @ various Lexus driving events (search threads for reference) & await the opportunity to try this one out.

If vague steering is a part of that equation then more power to those that love that. Vague steering on a vehicle marketed as sport just seems a bit unorthodox imo.

flipside909

Nice pic! But do realize AMG was not a factory program until 1993 (C36 AMG). AMG was like any other aftermarket tuner like Lorinser, Brabus, CEC and etc in that era.


You are right. That's why there are aftermarket tuners for the LS even before the in-house trim of a "Sport" package. Recall the offerings that TRD Japan, Tom's, Wald, etc had for the LS and Celsior of past times? Some of you forget that.

Why does Lexus need to make it a true competitor to the Europeans? If it's not good enough for you, then that's what the competitive options are for. 1SICKLEX made a good point about this prior. Lexus is doing well in it's own right. The Europeans until lately started offering things like "luxury suvs" and "hybrid" powertrain vehicles. Who created that trend first? BMW and Mercedes did not. You say they've had 20 odd years to get the steering right...Mercedes Benz had 109 years to get it to where they are now. I think Lexus is doing a bit better at the rate they're at compared to Mercedes.

LexFather

Here are the facts we have tried to explain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W201

AMG was not part of Mercedes-Benz when the 190 was first produced, but a separate racing and tuning company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-AMG

In 1990, with AMG having become a high-profile purveyor of modified Mercedes cars, Daimler-Benz AG and AMG signed a contract of cooperation, allowing AMG to leverage Daimler-Benz's extensive dealer network and leading to commonly developed vehicles [B](the first one being the Mercedes-Benz C 36 AMG, in 1993). [/B]On 1 January 1999 DaimlerChrysler, as it was called between 1998 and 2007, acquired 51 percent of AMG shares, and AMG was renamed to Mercedes-AMG GmbH.


So you basically have showed people an aftermarket Mercedes Benz which I and Ryan stated. At that point, it is like us posting pics of aftermarket LS vehicles like WALD or TOM'S.




You seem to have something against people that read. I suggest you actually do some reading instead of continuing to post misinformation and leveraging anything against Lexus on a LEXUS forum.


Odd you forget to mention when BMW has been blasted for loose steering especially compared to older models. The E46 steering was actually updated and fixed b/c of customer complaints. Every new review says the same, steering is looser. Don't read new 5 series reviews without the sport and electric do-dads.

DASHOCKER

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=flipside909;5233251] I am not disputing this. Many back then dollied these cars with AMG parts. People did see "sport appeal" of the S class back then thus proving my point


People who adorn their LS see the "sport appeal" of their cars also. But, the steering will still be an issue regardless of the add-ons.

Because the Europeans run this genre of vehicle and will continue to be the barometer for which all is measured. If you slap "sport" on your ultra luxry sedan, it better deliver against the best of them.

DASHOCKER

iTrader: (2)

LOL. You typed all of this for not. I am quite aware of AMG's history.

flipside909

And people did see the sport appeal of an LS even when it was as much if a boat as the S-Class.

Mercedes S-Class never had the best steering out there. For the longest time even most recently, they utlized a slow and numb recirculating ball steering system which Toyota used in their old pick up trucks.

They rule because they've been around longer than the 21 years of Lexus existence. Competition is getting fierce. The Caddy CTS V can out do a E60 M5. Who would have ever thought of that? The Euros had plenty of time to get it right, 100+ years of it.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Why do you, and others, keep complaining about Lexus steering? You may not like it, others find it perfect.

For instance, I love the steering in my LS400, tolerate it in either of my GS430's, but I absolutely HATE the steering in my wifes 3 series - its way too twetchy and oversensitive, with no error forgiveness.

And my brothers 7 series that I drove a few times, the steering is just whatever... its there I guess.

Clearly the LS460 sport isn't marketed as a mass produced car. It will appeal to a small number of customer who love the standard 460 but with for a sportier suspension. This isn't made to compete with AMG models from Mercedes.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Up until the current generation of 5 series, the v8 version of the 5er came with recirculating ball steering, which was as loose, anemic and horrible as any 1980 American sedan. Thats why I sometimes laugh when people complain about steering on GS and then praise the steering on last gen 540.

mmarshall

I remember the recirculating-ball steering on BMW V8s....they kept it for a while, even after they switched to rack-and-pinion on the fours and straight-sixes. Company reps told me they used that design on the V8s because they didn't (yet) trust the durability of the rack-and-pinion systems with the heavier V8s. Eventually, of course, racks became standard throughout the line...as with Mercedes-Benz, who also delayed it on their V8s.

Some big American pickups, I believe, still use recirculating ball on higher-GVWR-rated trucks designed to carry heavier loads.

Recirculating-ball systems, in general, are less precise feeling, and DO develop more free play across the middle than rack-and-pinion, especially as they wear and age a little. But here, once again, BMW's excellence in steering/chassis engineering stands out...their recirculating-ball systems, as I remember them, were almost as precise and tactile-feeling as the racks.

Och

iTrader: (3)

I don't know about reasons why they kept these systems, maybe they did in fact have to do with durability, but its true that MB also used them in their S class until W220.

Both BMW and MB steering recirculating ball gearboxes were built by a German company ZF.

In any case, besides some heavy duty trucks, nobody uses these anymore. Rack-and-pinion systems are clearly superior.


I am of the opinion that BMW's chassis and steering engineering is often over-hyped out of proportion. I don't want to sway this thread too far off topic, or get too technical, but lets just say that Lexus and BMW exercise a very different approach when it comes to building a "sporty" chassis. Both have its pluses and minuses.

For me personally, I prefer Lexus approach.

STIG

I too prefer Lexus' approach on the weekdays.

LexFather

Which a lot of people love. No car is perfect and no car does everything. Quite frankly driving these 4500 lbs 200 inch or so cars hard loses the plot some. Are you THAT late for that dinner party? Surely at this level a person owns multiple vehicles.

I think the LS sport is a fine extension for the LS line and I don't have expectations of it being a GT3.

And quite frankly the Porsche Panamera makes the 7/S/A8/LS etc all look like Cadillacs.

I doubt it. Otherwise you would not have posted cars basically IRRELEVANT to this thread. (again)

lexusscturbo

iTrader: (12)

I think the next big company possibly is Hyundai, and they're doing quite well.

But wasn't the first "global" midsize luxury brand SUV the Mercedes ML?

The LS460S does a decent job at what its supposed to do(A luxury fullsize sedan with a bit of sporty sprinkles on top).... Not quite as a canyon carver as an S500 with the AMG sports pack, but if you were looking for a sports sedan I'm not sure why one would not just go Alpina B7 or S63/65....

mmarshall

Yes, recirculating-ball systems are considered more durable, but they can develop problems (like free play) that you don't see with rack-and-pinion, and they just don't have the same preciseness and feel. Of course, some of the feel is determined by how the power-steering hydraulics (or electrics) are set-up, not just the type of system itself.




Sure Lexus does a good chassis. But it doesn't quite offer the same as BMW's superb ride/handling combo and tactile-steering feel. Few, if any, other vehicles do.

So, in a nutshell, there ARE things, IMO, you can criticize BMWs for (I-Drive, Chris-Bangle styling, needlessly complex controls, so-so paint jobs, unreliable electronics, etc....), but the chassis engineering is DEFINITELY not one of them.

encore888

Definitely handling and chassis dynamics are BMW's strength, but if the reviews are to be believed, the LS 460 Sport rivals the standard 7-series in driving dynamics much more closely than it ever. I'd love the opportunity to test drive the LS 460 Sport to experience this for myself.