pagemaster

BMW and Merc have one now and the next gen Audi is supposed to be getting one.

UDel

The rear view of that one picture is not the production Equus, I wish it looked like that. It is a picture of the HCD-7 Equus concept which is totally different from the production version.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Most people that lease cars like 7/S/LS are paying ridiculous monthly payments, despite whether lease deals are low. We are talking about 1400-1800 a month. Most of them are successful business owners, and write off most of these payments as business expense, so they don't mind the payments.

Like I said before, these guys select cars based on what they like, not on penny pinching.

In any case, the 7, LS and S class are all awesome cars, all about equally prestigious and all pushing the technology envelope and getting slightly ahead of each other with each new generation. Putting down the LS while praising the S or 7 is rather dumb, and vice versa. I wish the biggest dilemma in my life would be choosing between these three

cjf_moraga

That is not going to happen. MB is not going to hand over the $100K to $150K large sedan segment to BMW and Audi on a plate. There are equally credible rumors that MB's next V12 will also be used by Aston Martin. There is a market for V12 sedans. V8's and V10's cannot compete or offer the same driving experience.

The excellent LS could compete in this segment if they offered a real V12 (Not the ancient Toyota unit) with a high degree of luxury and performance. The LS600h does not address this market. (IMO of course)

mmarshall

Can't speak for Europe or Asia, but in the American market, V12s of any type, from any non-exotic manufacturer, are probably going to soon be extinct. The new CAFE laws will see to that.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

maybe they will live on with cylinder deactivation so most times people won't actually be using all 12 but can say they have 12 for bragging rights.

mmarshall

Yes, an interesting point, but shutting of the flow of fuel to cylinders with pistons that continue to go up and down with the rest of the engine has only limited fuel-economy effects. That's because, if you take, say, the V8, non-SRT Chrysler Hemi or the de-coupling Honda V6 as examples, when you shut off fuel to one bank of cylinders, as they do in some cruising modes, it does not double the fuel economy, as one would first impulsively think. Even without fuel delivery to the remaining bank of three (or four) cylinders, the engine still has pumping and friction losses to overcome....and the added weight/friction of the rotating balance-shafts/devices used to cancel out the roughness of firing just a few cylinders. Since the decoupled cylinders don't produce any power, the remaining cylinders have to work that much harder (and burn more fuel each) to overcome the engine's parasitic and induced drag. So, overall, fuel economy does improve in the decoupling mode, but not as much as one would think.

cjf_moraga

I think "extinct" is over dramatic. CAFE is averaged across the entire fleet any one manufacturer sells and 12 cylinder engines from MB, BMW, and Audi must account for what? I don't have definitive data but it must be way less than 1.0% of their total sales footprint given their cost. Also 35 mpg is still some years away and fuel efficiency in next gen engines will improve. If penalties are levied it then becomes an economic issue for how much the consumer will pay. There are customers for these vehicles who can afford it and they are some of the highest margin sales a manufacturer like MB, BMW, or Audi makes. Anyway, low volume manufacturers outside CAFE will continue to supply V12's and many customers will pay the price because a V12 is a very special thing.

mmarshall

Yes, agreed. I did not mean the term "extinct" literally. Exotics, mega-luxury cars ike the Maybach, and low-volume sports cars like Ferraris and Lambos may still use them to some extent. But I don't think you will continue to see V12s in any kind of car that sells at a significant volume, partly for the reasons you mentioned.

Och

iTrader: (3)

The problem with cylinder deactivation is not friction or parasitic drag, but because the valvetrain is still moving, the "deactivated" cylinders are still going through the compression cycle, and basically the remaining cylinders are not only running the car, but a giant air compressor. If they could design it in such way where valves would stay open in deactivated cylinders, the fuel economy would probably improve a lot more.

IS-SV

Yes, V12's never sold in significant numbers even before CAFE requirements tightened and paying (even higher) gas guzzler taxes is expected and doesn't deter sales in this price range considering the income brackets of those that buy this class of car.

pagemaster

You are right, V12's aren't going anywhere. They are a niche segment catering to the $100,000+ range buyers. I was looking at a list of production cars and it was impressive to see all the the Ferrari's, Lambo's, Maybach, Rolls Royce etc....BMW and Merc are in this list and it is sad that there is no Lexus on the list. They did have a Toyota Century listed but that V12 is dated, also the Audi Q7 makes the list with a V12 TD.

I agree. I highly doubt we will ever see a V12 LS with the LF-A getting a V10 that pretty much ends any chance. The best chance would of been with the LF-A getting the motor which would be used in other Lexus models such as the LS...I guess we will have to keep dreaming...

(Cj)

Well of course it would be nice if Lexus had a V12 but realisticly could you even afford one? If not why do you care that they don't offer one? Offering a V12 would probably be a money losing investment since so few people buy them.

I fond it funny that you don't think the LFA was a good investment but you think a V12 LS would be...

I don't object to either the LFA or the proverbial V12 LS but I don't think a V12 is as essentail as the LFA is to the brand.

The V12 sedan segment is extremely niche and probably too crowded for Lexus to be competitive. What they really need to do is improve the power output on the hybrid LS so that it could more realistically compete with the C12 competition.

IS-SV

The incremental sales increase alone is not enough to justify a V12, still it would be nice to have this as a choice for the flagship sedan even if the business justification is so-so.

pagemaster

I could afford one and I could easily pay cash for it if I wanted to. A V12 is about bragging rights and prestige, more all along the lines that "we can build one...and more importantly, we have one"...

How do you know that? Is the Century V12 Toyota a money losing investment?

I have been clear and straightforward that the Lexus LF-A is not the right direction for Lexus, especially when Toyota is losing money and their Lexus cars are supposed to be luxurious..not too mentioned each and every LF-A will lose money. I have always maintained that if the LF-A where a $200k Toyota badged car then Toyota would have a chance at making inroads in the sports car market under the Toyota badge. The Supra, Celica, MR2, Toyota Racing would all benefit....