Och

iTrader: (3)

LMAO, then why do you hang out on a Lexus board with us peasants? Why not order yourself a koeninseseseseggseggsegg?

cjf_moraga

LS development costs are amortized over the entire model chain. As long as the engine bay is big enough it is not a difficult task to fit a V12 in. There are incremental costs in developing and certifying the engine and transmission itself, but spread over several models (LS, new century? LF-A?) that is not unreasonable. (It works for BMW/Rolls, VW/Audi/Bentley and MB/Maybach) Perhaps the fact that the LF-A is getting the sports optimized V10 design suggests that Lexus did not consider the uber luxury sedan market with its requirements for V12 level smoothness/engine balance and linear power delivery. (Or there is poor inter-company communication regarding engine strategy) It is not clear that hybrid engines are anywhere near having the power/density/weight performance to move a 5000 pound car in the way that current turbo-charged V12's can.

It is true that for such a small niche segment it is already somewhat crowded, but again this is a very high margin and profitable segment for an automotive manufacturer and the ROI (and halo effect) ripples down the model chain.

Chris

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Guys keep the personal commentary out of this thread please

(Cj)

Well you somewhat give proof to my point.

There is no way Lexus could amortize the cost of a V12 because they don't have enough models to put it in. For BMW they share their V12 with Rolls, and Mercedes shares their with Maybach. Of course the entire segment only sell a few thousand vehicles globally every year so even the amortization isn't great.

For Lexus the only model they could put a V12 in would be the LS and maybe the SC. Lexus being a new player in the segment may only sell 100 vehicles globally a year. Do you think that's enough vehicles sold to justify the costs of the new engine?

There's a reason why the Toyota Century has gone on for over a decade with nearly no changes made to it...

As far as the hybrid, no the hybrid will never be the same as a V12 but its sufficient for a Lexus flagship. As I said in my previous posts Mercedes is considering killing the V12 and replacing it with a twin turbo V8. Daimler is also considering shuttering Maybach, because its not profitable. With Mercedes/Maybach possibly leaving the segment do you think it would be worthwhile for Lexus to invest millions just to enter the segment?

As I said in my last post I think the V10 LFA has far more high end halo then a V12 LS ever would have.

pagemaster

How do you justify a V10 for a limited super-car?

cjf_moraga

If I might respectfully disagree.

A V12 is inherently smoother (perfectly balanced) than any other configuration (Essentially two coupled I-6's) with a power delivery curve, torque, and acceleration, throughout the range that is in a different league. It is a very mechanically sweet and pure design and the natural engine for a luxury or high performance car. Bragging rights are irrelevant except to those whose idea of quality is numbers of cylinders and not good engineering.

I have lived with my S600 for 2 years. I would have loved another LS but the LS600h (which I tested extensively) just could not compete - but I really wish Lexus would. I see a gap in the traffic 50 yards ahead of me... a slight pressure of my foot.. and in an instant I am there... its the next best thing to a transporter beam... the way power is delivered makes any maneuver at any speed in complete confidence. There are few if any situations I can not easily maneuver out of. The way the S600 V12 delivers power makes it simply the safest car I have ever driven and well worth the price. (And it even does 21 mpg for an almost 10 year old 3 valve engine design)

Coming back to the thread subject an Lexus V12 equivalent would be to me a true LS Sport! (And one I would seriously consider buying)

pagemaster

Everyone should read this excellent response.

(Cj)

2 factors for the LFA.

1. the LFA costs $375K
2. only 500 LFA's are made

The LFA has provided a greater halo and has done more for the Lexus brand globally than any other car has. I think a V12 LS would be overlooked by much of the automotive press, because most other luxury brands already have one. The LFA is something unique and special. It had everyone talking about Lexus worldwide.

That was a good investment in my opinion, and its resulted in people who never knew about Lexus finding out about the brand.

(Cj)

Very good writeup. I'm glad you're enjoying your S600!

mmarshall

Yes, the compression (if applicable) in the idle cylinders during fuel shutdown can also add to the extra drag, but that depends, of course, on how the computer manages the valve-shutdowns. If the intake or exhaust valves stay open, you then have little or no compression, and it is not a significant factor (compression only occurs when all the valves are shut). But the friction from working pistons and rods/bearings will always be a factor, no matter what else operates or not.

pagemaster

The LF-A hasn't done anything yet.

It will be a few years at least before anyone knows whether the LF-A is a success for the Lexus brand or not

(Cj)

That has to be one of the dumbest things you've said

Nearly every auto mag globally has talked about the LFA. Mags that have never spoken of anything Lexus before. That's pretty significant if you ask me, and people that never even considered the brand or knew about it, are now hearing about it because of the LFA.

The LFA has been a success in what it set out to do for Lexus and that's to get the brand more global exposure. Now people that never took the brand seriously because of the things that it lacked are taking the brand more seriously because of the LFA.

The LFA wasn't about sales it was about raising Lexus's image.

For the money invested in the car, I don't think any is really being lost because of the intangible promotion the car has caused for the brand. Certainly a good investment of marketing dollars in getting the brand exposure.

pagemaster

Well until I see the actual Lexus line-up change or evolve and gain sales and prestige from the Lexus LFA...it hasn't done anything yet IMO.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Computer doesn't manage valve shut down, they opened and closed by cam, which is controlled by cam/timing belt/chain.

Furthermore, most modern engines are high compression, and therefore they are interference engines, which means that even if there was a way to keep valves open during cylinder cycles, they would get damaged by the moving pistons (like what happens when timing belt breaks on interference engines).

I'm not saying friction from working piston and rods isn't a factor, but it not anywhere near as much of a factor as compression.

(Cj)

I don't think we'll see much affect here in North America where Lexus is already seen as prestigious by 90% of people. It's globally that the greatest affects of the LFA are going to be seen.

One evolution of the Lexus lineup is the LS Sport which this whole thread was supposed to be about.