encore888

Agreed, the next GS can stand from an upped game in the sporty department. Driver and test opinions have run the gamut in the GS, from a bit too traditional Lexus-like to sporty enough. With the promise shown by the LS Sport (sporty handling with little luxury sacrifice), the hard-core IS-F qualities (sporty but with harder ride--although the IS itself has had some harder ride comments), even the HS (much better than expected handling for a FWD hybrid), along with some of the praise/critiques of the RX (Sport package has received both, regular RX in Euro spec has received both), I am now more confident in Lexus' abilities to do the next GS justice.

I completely agree that the next GS would do great if in regular spec it handled like the LS Sport; adding a sport package to the 4GS would still be a good move, along with the GS-F. This would push the GS towards the performance spectrum in a very purposeful way and differentiate it in the Lexus lineup much more aptly.

Additionally, perhaps a future LS Sport could offer more engine upgrades which would put the vehicle in a position to not just match competing offerings on handling and sporty performance but perhaps trump them in key areas.

mmarshall

You and I both know the answer to that one, Mike. It was, to a significant extent, the auto press itself (which, of course, Clarkson is part of) that pressured auto manufacturers into ever-sharper handling, higher skidpad/G-figures, and stiffer chassis/tires. Well, they got what they wanted....and truly smooth-riders are becoming ever-harder to find, as a result.

But, to compensate, it is also fact, though, that, to some extent, good chassis engineering can produce a relatively good ride and good handling at the same time....even if the old silky-smooth rides are gone. Good examples are BMW (arguably the world's best in steering/chassis design), Mercedes, Audi, The GM Magna-Ride suspension on Cadillacs, and, believe it or not, the new 2010 Buick LaCrosse. I would assume that the LS460 Sport would also be a pretty good combination of ride/handling for a big car, but, of course, can't verify that without a test-drive.

flipside909

It still isn't in the class of the GS either. It may "portray" to be a value Lexus of sorts, but it's not even close. I owned a 3GS prior to my ISF and the GS has plenty to offer...more so than a Genesis.


You buy a luxury brand for it's value, prestige and of course the fantastic service. A person buying a Hyundai is not in the same category as someone shopping for a luxury branded vehicle. And it is safe to say someone buying a luxury branded vehicle is not looking to downgrade into a Genesis either.

flipside909

To be fair here and qualify the driving experiences i've owned a 3GS and currently an ISF...and have had a lot of exposure and driving experience with the LS Sport.

A stock GS350 or even 430/450h/460 has pretty good handling in stock form. I would say it would be as good as an LS460 Sport in "SPORT" mode. A modded 3GS suspension will outhandle a stock LS460 Sport. The LS460 is a big and heavy car. Even with the sport tuned suspension, it's not very easy to toss around the LS Sport like a GS or ISF for that matter. It does hold it's own as it does handle pretty well with the stiffer sways and air suspension. Steering feel for the 3GS and LS Sport are very vague. It's not as precise as it's Euro compeitors and definitely not as sharp as my ISF. If the LS and GS had better steering feel to compliment the handling, we would have a much more engaging experience.

I would hope the 4GS will have a stock suspension that will outdo the LS Sport. Or if the 4GS does get a "sport" or F version, the suspension feel and tuning should rival the German's sport offerings. Lets hope the LFA's supsension feel carries into the future Lexus models.

mmarshall

Hyundai plans, of course, to expand into the luxury-car arena....the Equus, of course, is perhaps the first inkling of that. Whether this expansion will be done under the Hyundai nameplate or with an all-new, luxury division is yet unclear. Years ago, when Ford axed Mazda's plans for the Amati luxury division, the Millenia, originally designed to be an Amati, ended up being sold as the Mazda flagship instead. We saw somewhat of the same thing at Toyota....but for different reasons. The 1Gen Avalon, at least as I understand it, was originally meant to be a Lexus, but Toyota officials decided to make it the Toyota flagship instead (my guess is that, at Lexus, it would have taken sales away from the Lexus ES300).

pagemaster

Toyota had no such plans for the Avalon to be a Lexus model. It was planned to take over the Cressidia. The Cressidia was the high luxury model Toyota had in North America until Lexus came along. ...

The Avalon is and always was planned as a Toyota. It was to built alongside the Camry in Georgetown, by then Toyota was in their 5th or 6th year of that plant.

mmarshall

It's correct that the Lexus policy was never official. I just repeated with Toyota and Lexus reps both mentioned to me, back in the mid-90's (though they were not very high up in the company), that they had considered the Avalon as a Lexus. There were also a few auto-press stories along that line. And, yes, it ended up replacing the Cressida, partly because Toyota wanted a FWD replacement.....the Cressida was RWD and, at the time, was selling very poorly.

flipside909

What's a Cressidia?

The Cressida was sold up to 1992 as Toyota's flagship in North America.

RXSF

Really? I dont think you buy a luxury brand for value at all. You buy it for the opposite of value, which makes them rare, which makes them sought after. plus, MB has always had crappy service

flipside909

Lets take a look at the definition of:

value - (n)

- monetary or material worth, as in commerce or trade: This piece of land has greatly increased in value.
- the worth of something in terms of the amount of other things for which it can be exchanged or in terms of some medium of exchange.
- equivalent worth or return in money, material, services, etc.
- import or meaning; force; significance: the value of a word.
- liking or affection.

You buy material possessions which are of value to you, correct? I had many other choices before I settled on my ISF, my previous GS350 and IS300. I compared the BMW counterparts of my Lexus choices very closely before I made the decision to take a Lexus home. I could have purchased a new 09 M3 but went with an ISF instead. You know why? Reputation and...you guessed it...VALUE! I would have spent well over $67K for the similarly optioned M3.

I'm pretty certain all of us here who bought and own a Lexus had a choice of going with the domestic or Euro competition, but we all value the Lexus name by reputation and experience hence the reason why we're here. Make no mistake, Lexus is a brand that is sought after. You don't hear kids saying, "oooh my dream car is a Hyundai Genesis!"

pagemaster

Simple chatter at the time which was wrong. The most important thing for Toyota at the time of the Avalon was to expand production of Georgetown and produce the Cressida replacement in the United States. Toyota design centres in the Michigan and California played major roles in the design of the car. The Avalon was never ever an alternative to a Lexus model, it was the most logical shopping step up from a Camry. There were never any plans to for a Lexus Avalon as there really was no spot between the ES300 and LS400, at the time of the Avalon conception, the ES was already into its second
generation

Yes you are correct that the Cressida was RWD, it also used an I6 and was related mechanically in some ways to that of the Supra.

flipside909

Since we have deviated from the topic...and to relate the flagship Toyota Avalon to the LS Sport, The Avalon first offered a specific "Touring" package with a few items that distinguished it from the regular. A "sport" suspension was added to this package. It was inevitable for Lexus to add a specific "Sport" package to the line up. It should have been offered a long time ago rather than the almost transparent "touring" package for the 460L back when 4LS was introduced.

pagemaster

What exactly are you saying?

flipside909

Where are you getting your facts? You do realize the Gen 1 (95-99) Avalon was not designed at Calty and the Calty Ann Arbor facility didn't open until 2004. Calty wasn't fully involved with the Avalon until the current Gen 3 (05 - present).

I think it's time for you to stop making up stories.

pagemaster

You are confusing the Calty facilities with Toyota Technical Centers. The Calty centers focus more on styling and trim...however that could of changed by now and they may actually be renamed or merged And the Calty center was founded in 1973