Manual Usage below 10%...
03-03-10, 12:11 PM
#136
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Here are a few cars that have MT option that gets better fuel economy than the AT:
Hyundai Sonata (2011), Toyota Camry, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Yaris, Audi A4, BMW 528i, Cadillac CTS-V, Chevy Aveo, Chevy Cobalt, Chevy Corvette, Chevy HHR, Dodge Caliber, Ferrari 612 Scaglietti, Honda Accord, Hyundai Genesis coupe, Nissan Altima (4 cyl), Nissan Versa (1.8L), Nissan Frontier, Saab 9-3, Saab 9-5, Subaru Impreza, Subaru Forester, Ford Ranger, Ford Mustang, Ford Escape, Ford Focus, Mitsubishi Eclipse.
This is not a complete list.
Hyundai Sonata (2011), Toyota Camry, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Yaris, Audi A4, BMW 528i, Cadillac CTS-V, Chevy Aveo, Chevy Cobalt, Chevy Corvette, Chevy HHR, Dodge Caliber, Ferrari 612 Scaglietti, Honda Accord, Hyundai Genesis coupe, Nissan Altima (4 cyl), Nissan Versa (1.8L), Nissan Frontier, Saab 9-3, Saab 9-5, Subaru Impreza, Subaru Forester, Ford Ranger, Ford Mustang, Ford Escape, Ford Focus, Mitsubishi Eclipse.
This is not a complete list.
03-03-10, 01:04 PM
#141
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Who in their right mind is holding a coffee in their shifting hand when entering an intersection?
Eitherway, I know how to solve this entire debate going on in this thread.
For those of you that don't drive a manual day in and day out, go find one (a real one) and drive it around everywhere for everything for ... a month, maybe two. Then come back and try and tell me you're not a better driver for it.
Trying to explain this to those of you who insist on sticking your head so far up the a$$ of 'technology will save me and I don't need to learn' is getting just impossible. I would be better off trying to convince my kitchen counter it's a chair.
*rolls eyes* I'm out.
Eitherway, I know how to solve this entire debate going on in this thread.
For those of you that don't drive a manual day in and day out, go find one (a real one) and drive it around everywhere for everything for ... a month, maybe two. Then come back and try and tell me you're not a better driver for it.
Trying to explain this to those of you who insist on sticking your head so far up the a$$ of 'technology will save me and I don't need to learn' is getting just impossible. I would be better off trying to convince my kitchen counter it's a chair.
*rolls eyes* I'm out.
03-03-10, 01:34 PM
#143
Not me. I'll proceed cautiously in whatever I'm driving, and remain indifferent. Adapt to the car, and drive as appropriate.
03-03-10, 04:33 PM
#144
Tech Info Resource
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Who in their right mind is holding a coffee in their shifting hand when entering an intersection?
Eitherway, I know how to solve this entire debate going on in this thread.
For those of you that don't drive a manual day in and day out, go find one (a real one) and drive it around everywhere for everything for ... a month, maybe two. Then come back and try and tell me you're not a better driver for it.
Trying to explain this to those of you who insist on sticking your head so far up the a$$ of 'technology will save me and I don't need to learn' is getting just impossible. I would be better off trying to convince my kitchen counter it's a chair.
*rolls eyes* I'm out.
Eitherway, I know how to solve this entire debate going on in this thread.
For those of you that don't drive a manual day in and day out, go find one (a real one) and drive it around everywhere for everything for ... a month, maybe two. Then come back and try and tell me you're not a better driver for it.
Trying to explain this to those of you who insist on sticking your head so far up the a$$ of 'technology will save me and I don't need to learn' is getting just impossible. I would be better off trying to convince my kitchen counter it's a chair.
*rolls eyes* I'm out.
Its why special examples are silly in general. Who in their right mind would enter an intersection with an oncoming car running a red, where the difference in their safety is left to the drivetrain?
Not me. I'll proceed cautiously in whatever I'm driving, and remain indifferent. Adapt to the car, and drive as appropriate.
Not me. I'll proceed cautiously in whatever I'm driving, and remain indifferent. Adapt to the car, and drive as appropriate.
Tell that to the owner of Camerys whose throttle has stuck. Most owners of ATs are unaware that they could just push the slushbox into "N". 90% of MT drivers know that the clutch disconects all power to the wheels.
Electronics may not make mistakes per-se, but they do fail. When they do fail, I'd rather trust my human brain.
For those that think an AT is just as worthy in the real world, daily grind of driving, I challange you to spend a year on a motorcycle, riding in all kinds of weather, traffic and terrain. Keeping in the proper gear is more that just fun for spirited riding. It is often a life saver. When that idiot runs the red light as your crossing an intersection, you don't want to hit the gas just to have to wait on the AT to decide when to downshift, and how many gears it needs to drop. On downhills with less that ideal traction, I can decide to leave it in a lower gear, reducing the need for as much brake to be applied.
This ALL transfers over to driving a MT car. And while you can make an AT act like an MT to some degree, the AT allows drivers to get much more complacent. Giving us more time to talk, eat, text, or whatever, and become more distracted as drivers.
I refuse to give up control of my vehicle to a computer, especially when 90% of the other drivers HAVE given up control. I'll think for myself, thank you very much.
Electronics may not make mistakes per-se, but they do fail. When they do fail, I'd rather trust my human brain.
For those that think an AT is just as worthy in the real world, daily grind of driving, I challange you to spend a year on a motorcycle, riding in all kinds of weather, traffic and terrain. Keeping in the proper gear is more that just fun for spirited riding. It is often a life saver. When that idiot runs the red light as your crossing an intersection, you don't want to hit the gas just to have to wait on the AT to decide when to downshift, and how many gears it needs to drop. On downhills with less that ideal traction, I can decide to leave it in a lower gear, reducing the need for as much brake to be applied.
This ALL transfers over to driving a MT car. And while you can make an AT act like an MT to some degree, the AT allows drivers to get much more complacent. Giving us more time to talk, eat, text, or whatever, and become more distracted as drivers.
I refuse to give up control of my vehicle to a computer, especially when 90% of the other drivers HAVE given up control. I'll think for myself, thank you very much.
How about didn't own an auto as a daily driver until my IS350 in 2006? How about learned to drive stick in 1966 at age 6 in the barnyard on a Ford Model 8N tractor and been daily driving sticks for the following 40 years.
So, do I meet your "requirements?"
Manuals are dinosaurs. You can wax eloquent about the joy of rev matching all day long but you can't do it better than a computer can. You can describe the visceral feel of letting out the clutch and being one with the car, but you can't do it consistently without jerking 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and 365 days a year. You might be a little tired and slip up. Your auto will never do this. You might grind your synchro dogs because you've not quite disengaged the friction disc because your timing is slightly off today (you missed breakfast, you had breakfast, you missed your coffee, you had your coffee, you have a headache, you don't have a headache, etc, etc, etc,...) This NEVER happens with your auto.
Have you ever screwed up a downshift? Like found first when you were looking for third? Or third when you were looking for fifth? Ever heard the sound of the friction disc in first gear at 40 mph when max speed for first is 28 mph? Guess what costs more - toasting an automatic, or throwing the rods out of the side of the block because you just spun your 6000 rpm engine to 12,000 rpm? Ever see a clutch disc blow up and take the bell housing with it?
I can't believe all the BS I'm hearing in this thread from the "holier than thou" DD stick drivers. You guys are being arrogant snobs and nothing more. Saying you're "more involved in the driving process" - you're also handicapped if you need to shift with a drink in your hand (and please don't try to tell me you're so involved in the driving process you don't drink in the car or deal with other distractions when driving because no matter how you slice it, there's only one place you can drive without distractions - on the track - if you're on a public road, you're distracted whether you admit it or not.)
What happens when you sprain your ankle and have it in a cast? Tennis elbow, etc., etc., No distraction there for sure.
Driving a manual does not make you a better driver. Wanting to be a better driver makes you a better driver. Most manual drivers in the US want to be better drivers, so they tend to be. All the things I've seen cited in this thread do not apply where manuals are commonplace. Inattention runs rampant no matter how you change gears.
Oh, and for all those fears of electronic failures - ever had a shifter fork break on your manual and have two gears engage at the same time? Manuals safer? No. All systems are subject to catastrophic failure. Been there, done that, seen all the busted pieces.
And I'll never buy another manual because it's a manual. The F's marvelous implementation cured me of my arrogance.
03-03-10, 05:10 PM
#146
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I'm sorry, I don't agree. Here is one reason why.
http://www.newsplex.com/home/headlines/8102677.html
So while this sample is of youth with ADHD it has generalizable results. My professional opinion is that ADHD is over diagnosed in today's world. What is more likely happening is that individuals are having other difficulties, such as problems with auditory information processing for one example. What this means is that some people have a difficult time attending to sensory information. Often cases, the teacher notices it in a child, through the form of the child not paying attention. Therefore, the primary sensory stimulus is not being processed correctly. What empirical results have found is that these children do better when they have something that helps them engage what they are supposed to be focused on. Not meds, contrary to those who want an easy way out.
Generalizing this info. to driving a manual transmission could serve as an aide to guide attentiveness to the primary task at hand. That being said, a tiptronic transmission could do the same. Nevertheless, I do believe that focusing on your engine speed, the speed of the car, hand eye cooridation makes one a more focused driver overall. Simply putting a car into D and going allows one to ignore such stimuli. The manual transmission promotes a multi-demensional approach to drving. Relating it back to the classroom, offering visually stimulating powerpoints, interactive maps, electronic dictionaries, etc. promotes multi-dimensional learning which is far more effective than having lecture as the sole means of stimulation.
June 20, 2007
Psychologists at the University of Virginia have been researching the driving habits of teens with ADHD and, they believe the type of transmission you choose for your child may make the difference in serious driving situations.
“One of the problems with driving and ADHD is they can easily become in-attentive, daydream and not pay attention to what’s going on in their driving environment,” said Dr. Daniel ***, a researcher and doctor in UVA’s Department of Psychiatric Medicine.
Doctor *** says in-attentive drivers tend to*not pay attention to changing traffic lights or other cars on the road.
“If you are impulsive you are more likely to run yellow lights, cut people off, etc, also exposing yourself and others on the road to higher risk situations,” said Dr. ***.
Researchers at UVA’s Virginia Driving Safety Lab conducted tests on teen boys age 16 to 19, who suffer from ADHD.
Dr. *** said, “We trained them in terms of driving in automatic transmission and or 4-speed manual transmission. Then we evaluated their driving when they drove either or these two transmissions.”
The results show that the teens drove twice as better on a manual car than an automatic one.
“When I’m driving my manual I have to pay attention to the road more, pay attention to my speed, so I know what gear to put it in, when I’m slowing down, when I need to downshift. So I think it helps me focus a lot better,” said Cory ***, a teen driver.
Dr *** said, “I think what that says is that anything that draws the ADHD drivers attention back to driving, what they are doing is a good thing.”
All of these experiments were conducted through the Virginia Driving Safety Lab at UVA.
Anyone who's concerned that a medical condition may be affecting their driving should contact the lab with further questions.
Psychologists at the University of Virginia have been researching the driving habits of teens with ADHD and, they believe the type of transmission you choose for your child may make the difference in serious driving situations.
“One of the problems with driving and ADHD is they can easily become in-attentive, daydream and not pay attention to what’s going on in their driving environment,” said Dr. Daniel ***, a researcher and doctor in UVA’s Department of Psychiatric Medicine.
Doctor *** says in-attentive drivers tend to*not pay attention to changing traffic lights or other cars on the road.
“If you are impulsive you are more likely to run yellow lights, cut people off, etc, also exposing yourself and others on the road to higher risk situations,” said Dr. ***.
Researchers at UVA’s Virginia Driving Safety Lab conducted tests on teen boys age 16 to 19, who suffer from ADHD.
Dr. *** said, “We trained them in terms of driving in automatic transmission and or 4-speed manual transmission. Then we evaluated their driving when they drove either or these two transmissions.”
The results show that the teens drove twice as better on a manual car than an automatic one.
“When I’m driving my manual I have to pay attention to the road more, pay attention to my speed, so I know what gear to put it in, when I’m slowing down, when I need to downshift. So I think it helps me focus a lot better,” said Cory ***, a teen driver.
Dr *** said, “I think what that says is that anything that draws the ADHD drivers attention back to driving, what they are doing is a good thing.”
All of these experiments were conducted through the Virginia Driving Safety Lab at UVA.
Anyone who's concerned that a medical condition may be affecting their driving should contact the lab with further questions.
So while this sample is of youth with ADHD it has generalizable results. My professional opinion is that ADHD is over diagnosed in today's world. What is more likely happening is that individuals are having other difficulties, such as problems with auditory information processing for one example. What this means is that some people have a difficult time attending to sensory information. Often cases, the teacher notices it in a child, through the form of the child not paying attention. Therefore, the primary sensory stimulus is not being processed correctly. What empirical results have found is that these children do better when they have something that helps them engage what they are supposed to be focused on. Not meds, contrary to those who want an easy way out.
Generalizing this info. to driving a manual transmission could serve as an aide to guide attentiveness to the primary task at hand. That being said, a tiptronic transmission could do the same. Nevertheless, I do believe that focusing on your engine speed, the speed of the car, hand eye cooridation makes one a more focused driver overall. Simply putting a car into D and going allows one to ignore such stimuli. The manual transmission promotes a multi-demensional approach to drving. Relating it back to the classroom, offering visually stimulating powerpoints, interactive maps, electronic dictionaries, etc. promotes multi-dimensional learning which is far more effective than having lecture as the sole means of stimulation.
Last edited by SLegacy99; 03-03-10 at 05:23 PM.
03-03-10, 05:26 PM
#147
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
How long did they follow the students after the training? I guarantee you I spend no more attention on shifting a manual than I do on shifting my F. In fact, I drove my Supra this week - Getrag 233 6 speed - and realized how little focus I need to be in the right gear doing the right thing and how much BETTER the F is at daily driving.
My bet is, these students after a year of driving manuals will be no different. You can bet for sure the first time I rode a motorcycle I spent a whole lot of attention on using the clutch smoothly and it forced me to be better. I also spent a lot of attention being aware of my surroundings because it's good to be paranoid on a bike. There really are people out there who are trying to kill you.
After a few years, shifting on the bike was nothing more than a tiny throttle blip and a smart click of the shifter for any upshift - I never used the clutch to upshift, and only used it to downshift (which is a million times easier than heel/toe).
So the study only has relevance for newbs. It's just not true once you've arrived at a point where the mental focus you need is hardly measurable. When I was 6 on that Ford tractor, you can bet all my focus was on releasing the clutch smoothly. Now it's not even a thought.
My bet is, these students after a year of driving manuals will be no different. You can bet for sure the first time I rode a motorcycle I spent a whole lot of attention on using the clutch smoothly and it forced me to be better. I also spent a lot of attention being aware of my surroundings because it's good to be paranoid on a bike. There really are people out there who are trying to kill you.
After a few years, shifting on the bike was nothing more than a tiny throttle blip and a smart click of the shifter for any upshift - I never used the clutch to upshift, and only used it to downshift (which is a million times easier than heel/toe).
So the study only has relevance for newbs. It's just not true once you've arrived at a point where the mental focus you need is hardly measurable. When I was 6 on that Ford tractor, you can bet all my focus was on releasing the clutch smoothly. Now it's not even a thought.
03-03-10, 05:36 PM
#148
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http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/adhd...10436?verify=0
The pilot study was preceded by clinical reports of adolescents with ADHD who said they were less able to daydream when driving a manual transmission. For example, an adolescent reported, "If I don't pay attention to what I'm doing, the car will jerk and stall, and, boy, is that embarrassing."
Last edited by SLegacy99; 03-03-10 at 05:43 PM.
03-03-10, 07:17 PM
#149
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Lobuxracer,
while I don't completely agree with you, you have do have valid points.
I would contend that, even when driving a stick becomes second nature, you're still paying attention to RPM, road speed, etc. Even if on a subconciois level, a manual gearbox requires a certain degree of atentiveness to it.
BTW, nice list of bikes. Owned or ridden a few of those myself...
while I don't completely agree with you, you have do have valid points.
I would contend that, even when driving a stick becomes second nature, you're still paying attention to RPM, road speed, etc. Even if on a subconciois level, a manual gearbox requires a certain degree of atentiveness to it.
BTW, nice list of bikes. Owned or ridden a few of those myself...
03-03-10, 08:29 PM
#150
Lexus Fanatic
Driving a manual does not make you a better driver. Wanting to be a better driver makes you a better driver. Most manual drivers in the US want to be better drivers, so they tend to be. All the things I've seen cited in this thread do not apply where manuals are commonplace. Inattention runs rampant no matter how you change gears.
And I'll never buy another manual because it's a manual. The F's marvelous implementation cured me of my arrogance.