Manual Usage below 10%...
03-02-10, 07:30 PM
#106
Lexus Champion
Driving feel really has nothing to do with it. In the past manuals offered three great benefits for consumers;
-CHEAPER
-MORE MPG
-FASTER
Today with new technology the opposite is now true in most instances!!! Manuals are now
-More expensive
-Less MPG
-Slower (in some cases)
Automatics are so good today they are making Manuals extinct. Ferrari will NO LONGER equip their cars with manuals. The 458 is the first with no manual option.
There will ALWAYS be a small market for manuals. However even Ford is offering a DUAL CLUTCH setup on its new Focus. That is the future.
For purity, nothing beats a manual, no doubt. For the feel and interaction there is nothing like it.
I've said it many times, the Nurburgring and other tracks are great to brag on but are they really great for us? In an attempt to go FASTER AND FASTER on the track to show their track ***** is larger than another brands, manuals are dropped for much faster automated systems.
So in return we do have faster cars but heavier and with less feel.
Sometimes I wonder did the best and brightest engineers lose the gotdamn plot? Or did they not have a choice?
As many have stated here most CANNOT drive manuals and don't want to learn. So the sports car makers and everyone made their cars with automatics so they could sell more. They had a choice, die with manuals or live on with automatics. Let me inform you 60% of the Porsches in Europe will be sold with PDK! With the rise of female wealth and their buying power, well they want automatics most of the time. Don't fool yourself though, most guys are the same.
Considering what the best and brightest did to the worldwide economy, I wouldn't be surprised.
Watch for some cars values to stay strong or get stronger as there will eventually be a "Mythical" image with driving/owning a manual.
-CHEAPER
-MORE MPG
-FASTER
Today with new technology the opposite is now true in most instances!!! Manuals are now
-More expensive
-Less MPG
-Slower (in some cases)
Automatics are so good today they are making Manuals extinct. Ferrari will NO LONGER equip their cars with manuals. The 458 is the first with no manual option.
There will ALWAYS be a small market for manuals. However even Ford is offering a DUAL CLUTCH setup on its new Focus. That is the future.
For purity, nothing beats a manual, no doubt. For the feel and interaction there is nothing like it.
I've said it many times, the Nurburgring and other tracks are great to brag on but are they really great for us? In an attempt to go FASTER AND FASTER on the track to show their track ***** is larger than another brands, manuals are dropped for much faster automated systems.
So in return we do have faster cars but heavier and with less feel.
Sometimes I wonder did the best and brightest engineers lose the gotdamn plot? Or did they not have a choice?
As many have stated here most CANNOT drive manuals and don't want to learn. So the sports car makers and everyone made their cars with automatics so they could sell more. They had a choice, die with manuals or live on with automatics. Let me inform you 60% of the Porsches in Europe will be sold with PDK! With the rise of female wealth and their buying power, well they want automatics most of the time. Don't fool yourself though, most guys are the same.
Considering what the best and brightest did to the worldwide economy, I wouldn't be surprised.
Watch for some cars values to stay strong or get stronger as there will eventually be a "Mythical" image with driving/owning a manual.
Plus, nowadays, most of the newer gearboxes (newer ATs, CVTs, SMTs, DSG, etc.) have manual mode. So now, you can send the shifter to the - and + area or you can use paddle shifters if your car has. If your girlfriend, sister or even your grandma needs to use your car, then just send it to full-auto and let the car take care of the rest.
Two birds with one stone.
03-02-10, 07:37 PM
#107
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1SICK, I agree with what you said.
Plus, nowadays, most of the newer gearboxes (newer ATs, CVTs, SMTs, DSG, etc.) have manual mode. So now, you can send the shifter to the - and + area or you can use paddle shifters if your car has. If your girlfriend, sister or even your grandma needs to use your car, then just send it to full-auto and let the car take care of the rest.
Two birds with one stone.
Plus, nowadays, most of the newer gearboxes (newer ATs, CVTs, SMTs, DSG, etc.) have manual mode. So now, you can send the shifter to the - and + area or you can use paddle shifters if your car has. If your girlfriend, sister or even your grandma needs to use your car, then just send it to full-auto and let the car take care of the rest.
Two birds with one stone.
I give up.> 'manual mode' is not the same as a manual transmission (not even close - I know, I've had both)
> and you watch it with the notion of: If your girlfriend, sister or even your grandma needs to use your car, then just send it to full-auto and let the car take care of the rest.
>> no, that is not how that works. The last guy that told me I should not have a manual car got his manhood politely handed to him on a rusty platter in front of the entire dealership, so think before you type.
03-02-10, 08:06 PM
#108
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> and you watch it with the notion of: If your girlfriend, sister or even your grandma needs to use your car, then just send it to full-auto and let the car take care of the rest.
>> no, that is not how that works. The last guy that told me I should not have a manual car got his manhood politely handed to him on a rusty platter in front of the entire dealership, so think before you type.
>> no, that is not how that works. The last guy that told me I should not have a manual car got his manhood politely handed to him on a rusty platter in front of the entire dealership, so think before you type.
My mother, sister and grandmother all drive a stick very, very well. When my grandmother learned to drive in the late 30's, she didn't have much choice. AT was a rarity in the back hills of WV.
As for handing a guy his manhood - you and my wife would get along just fine. She's had to put a few salesmen in there place over the years regarding MT's.
03-02-10, 08:37 PM
#109
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im curious as to where this original study placed the SMG, PDK, DSG and such under?
i think the automatic manual transmissions deserve a category of its own
id have to say that automatic manual trans is a great invention though
it opens up to a much larger market with almost no learning curve compared to manual
letting more people get into the sports car market
i think a lot of the grudge on the road now is that a lot of tame drivers or bad drivers driving sports cars without manuals giving sports car drivers a bad name overall
starting with SMG, the *****...
then the DSG, the snubs...
now the PDKs, the old farts...
but of course, not all auto manual trans drivers are stupid or bad drivers
a lot of good drivers get the auto manual just want the flexibility of easy driving when not in the mood to do more work
i think the automatic manual transmissions deserve a category of its own
id have to say that automatic manual trans is a great invention though
it opens up to a much larger market with almost no learning curve compared to manual
letting more people get into the sports car market
i think a lot of the grudge on the road now is that a lot of tame drivers or bad drivers driving sports cars without manuals giving sports car drivers a bad name overall
starting with SMG, the *****...
then the DSG, the snubs...
now the PDKs, the old farts...
but of course, not all auto manual trans drivers are stupid or bad drivers
a lot of good drivers get the auto manual just want the flexibility of easy driving when not in the mood to do more work
03-02-10, 09:23 PM
#110
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Well I don't. I'm still waiting to find out which MTs cost more and are slower than ATs.
I give up.
> 'manual mode' is not the same as a manual transmission (not even close - I know, I've had both)
> and you watch it with the notion of: If your girlfriend, sister or even your grandma needs to use your car, then just send it to full-auto and let the car take care of the rest.
>> no, that is not how that works. The last guy that told me I should not have a manual car got his manhood politely handed to him on a rusty platter in front of the entire dealership, so think before you type.
Amen.
....and my last gf had a stick as a DD. Best girlfriend ever...minus the whole relationship thing not working out. (Sigh) I moved.
I give up.> 'manual mode' is not the same as a manual transmission (not even close - I know, I've had both)
> and you watch it with the notion of: If your girlfriend, sister or even your grandma needs to use your car, then just send it to full-auto and let the car take care of the rest.
>> no, that is not how that works. The last guy that told me I should not have a manual car got his manhood politely handed to him on a rusty platter in front of the entire dealership, so think before you type.
....and my last gf had a stick as a DD. Best girlfriend ever...minus the whole relationship thing not working out. (Sigh) I moved.
03-02-10, 09:25 PM
#111
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I don't think Blackraven was trying to say manual mode was a replacement for manuals. He brought up a good point I forgot though. It does give the feeling somewhat of shifting.
It it didn't Ferrari wouldn't drop manuals. The LFA shifts hard on purpose to give the feeling of involvement.
Also manuals in the wrong applications can suck complete ***. Sorry but Lexus hasn't made a slick shifting manual and they all suck. I know personally owning one for over a decade.
Manuals in high HP cars (500hp plus) require some strength to move it. In contrast Honda shifters are always so slick feeling b/c they have no power and no torque. So it feels like butter and very good.
IS-SV makes the point of auto for the week, manual for the weekend.
It it didn't Ferrari wouldn't drop manuals. The LFA shifts hard on purpose to give the feeling of involvement.
Also manuals in the wrong applications can suck complete ***. Sorry but Lexus hasn't made a slick shifting manual and they all suck. I know personally owning one for over a decade
. Manuals in high HP cars (500hp plus) require some strength to move it. In contrast Honda shifters are always so slick feeling b/c they have no power and no torque. So it feels like butter and very good.
IS-SV makes the point of auto for the week, manual for the weekend.
03-02-10, 09:30 PM
#112
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http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...25765400823331
0-60
PDK-3.4
Maunal-3.6
Also
Porsche Australia expects 75 per cent of Turbo customers to opt for the PDK automatic.
Another example..
The IS 250 manual gets 18 city, 26 highway
The IS 250 Auto gets 21 city, 29 highway
Last edited by LexFather; 03-02-10 at 09:49 PM.
03-02-10, 10:17 PM
#113
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See, I think that's just silly, giving the 'feeling' of involvement. If you drive your manual well, the shifts really aren't that hard. Yea, it's related to how agressively you're driving but to put in a fake hard shift feeling? Aiya.
03-02-10, 10:37 PM
#114
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. I am all for manuals. Please don't get my posts wrong.Jaseman makes a great point that if we had to drive them, people would pay A HELLUVA lot more attention on the road.
There is a huge appeal to me with manuals as it goes against the status quo. Its not for everone. Most can't drive one.
Cayenne GTS manual for me. Big ugly heavy MANUAL SUV for me
03-02-10, 10:42 PM
#115
i am not sure if i agree with mike here on the lfa shifting hard just to give it a "feel". it's designed that way to shift and engage again asap. basically if you think from a clutch point of view, it's just reduce the amount of clutch slipping.
same thing for the m3 dct, or the m5 smg. if you are in "normal" mode, the shifting is a bit better, but if you are in full sport mode, i have tried, they shift freaking hard and can choke you. it's just to create feel, but in fact engage very fast like dumping the clutch
same thing for the m3 dct, or the m5 smg. if you are in "normal" mode, the shifting is a bit better, but if you are in full sport mode, i have tried, they shift freaking hard and can choke you. it's just to create feel, but in fact engage very fast like dumping the clutch
03-02-10, 10:44 PM
#116
Hey I'm not part of the engineering team . I am all for manuals. Please don't get my posts wrong.
Jaseman makes a great point that if we had to drive them, people would pay A HELLUVA lot more attention on the road.
There is a huge appeal to me with manuals as it goes against the status quo. Its not for everone. Most can't drive one.
Cayenne GTS manual for me. Big ugly heavy MANUAL SUV for me
. I am all for manuals. Please don't get my posts wrong.Jaseman makes a great point that if we had to drive them, people would pay A HELLUVA lot more attention on the road.
There is a huge appeal to me with manuals as it goes against the status quo. Its not for everone. Most can't drive one.
Cayenne GTS manual for me. Big ugly heavy MANUAL SUV for me
03-02-10, 11:26 PM
#117
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Yea, I don't think much of my driving the 6MT either when I'm out. I love the car and I wouldn't have bought it any other way.
The looks I get OTOH are probably similar to the ones you / your wife get re: her driving stick abilities; the best ones are from older M5 guys when they realize my M3 is stick, not to say I don't get some other fairly good ones but the M5 guys are the best.
The looks I get OTOH are probably similar to the ones you / your wife get re: her driving stick abilities; the best ones are from older M5 guys when they realize my M3 is stick
, not to say I don't get some other fairly good ones but the M5 guys are the best.
03-03-10, 12:32 AM
#119
Lexus Test Driver
03-03-10, 02:18 AM
#120
unfortunately you applied my post incorrectly. i never said it's for spirited or race track driving, if that's the case i will need to add a lot more techniques to my list.
i can't even recall how many times i see people with automatic braking into corners and lose control of their cars, crash or not. that's simply because they drive automatic and don't know how to drive it correctly. with manual cars, if you brake into corners, very often that means you are in higher gears that you should be, what happens is when exiting the corner, you won't have enough tq and the car will drag. after a few times the driver will automatically be aware of the corners and down shift to the right gear so the car can exit the corners right. doing that will most of the time mean braking early rather than braking too late into the corners. that's not something driving automatic can train people.
i can't even recall how many times i see people with automatic braking into corners and lose control of their cars, crash or not. that's simply because they drive automatic and don't know how to drive it correctly. with manual cars, if you brake into corners, very often that means you are in higher gears that you should be, what happens is when exiting the corner, you won't have enough tq and the car will drag. after a few times the driver will automatically be aware of the corners and down shift to the right gear so the car can exit the corners right. doing that will most of the time mean braking early rather than braking too late into the corners. that's not something driving automatic can train people.
Exiting a corner, modern automatic will put you in the right gear depending on how much throttle you give it, or you can just downshift it yourself.
Also, engine braking by downshifting on public roads often puts you in the danger of being rear ended.
There are plusses and minuses to both, really. A person that is a lousy driver by nature, will remain lousy no matter whether his car is manual or auto. A person who is a decent, eager to learn driver, can definitely improve his driving skills by learning to drive a manual.
Once again, I'm not trying to say that manuals are absolutely useless. Just saying to for someone who is already a decent driver, they are impractical for ever day driving, and the benefits they can provide can be offset by negatives that can be caused if they driver makes a mistake - and lets face it, we are all human, we make mistakes.