Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, these people are just complete idiots and shouldn't drive to begin with. Their failure is not in automatic transmission, but in DMV for issuing them their drivers license.

Well, lets face it, during every day driving, we all get distracted, no matter auto or manual.

Lets take the scenario you've described above and evaluate a little more. Say you're just minding you business, cruising down the road in your manual car in 5th gear doing 45mph, and holding a cup of coffee in your right hand. All of a sudden you see an idiot running a red light, coming right at you, its too late to brake, you need to downshift and haul yourself out of his way as fast as possible - but now you cant, you're holding a cup of hot coffee with your hand. With automatic, all you have to do is floor the pedal, it will downshift for you and save your life. Furthermore, even if you take the coffee out of the equation, a modern automatic can downshift faster than you might react and downshift manually. Also in an emergency situation you might panic, and downshift into a wrong gear, whereas electronics don't make mistakes.

Me personally, for daily driving, I gladly give up the control of the transmission to the computer.

As far as 90% of drivers giving up control, there are people on this board who come into a BMW thread, boast about control, handling, complain about Lexus' poor steering feel, lack of manuals, and then in the next thread praise the "non-distractive" I-drive, Internet in cars, and complain about Lexus navigation lock-out while driving.

Rominl, this is not directed at you, I don't want you to take it in your direction.

mmarshall

Electronics may be faster than humans, but they are not infallible. That's why automakers are constantly doing computer updates/re-flashes. And electronics, though not yet proven, may (?) be behind some of these Toyota-Lexus throttle problems.

Lets Drive

iTrader: (3)

This more highlights a lack of proper driver training in the US, as opposed to suggesting that command of manual transmissions would solve poor driving issues. Granted, manual does require more attention to the cars dynamics and behavior, which is great, but people are poor drivers because its tolerated, while the bar for the licensing process doesn't properly accommodate the actual challenges drivers face on roads. In fact, driver training barely covers counter-intuitive actions, which typically becomes the problem, when people panic. How people react in emergency situations, as is the case in 'sudden acceleration', is its own isolated issue, IMO.

It is just as worthy, hence why more and more cars are utilizing them, while the technology is becoming that much more sophisticated. I think special scenarios can be created which highlight the pros and cons of manual vs auto, but in day-to-day driving, autos are more than worthy of point-to-point driving. Without special conditions coming into play which are designed to compliment either, I feel just as comfortable in my manual 7, as I do in the auto IS.

In such a scenario, much of your chances of getting out of the way when someone is blatantly running a red light, is dependent on luck-- especially if a collision comes down to the time it takes an auto to down-shift, in response to your right foot being depressed. I'd even argue that your tires traction in the moment have more bearing on the outcome of what happens in this scenario, as opposed to manual vs auto.

While there is some truth in this, I'd say where there is a will, there is a way. I have friends who drive MT, who just as well eat and talk on the phone between shifts, or just get generally careless as they drive, because they feel comfortable enough in their ability to pilot the car. In fact, I'd say this is something many people are guilty of, which is what leads to the above behaviors-- people get comfortable and confident of their skills, up until the point where natural human error occurs (whether it be their fault, or lack of response to another persons error).

SLegacy99

No.


We already spoke of the oddity that the IS. It makes no sense. And the MT IS costs $1200 less.

The Porsche with the PDK is a fine example. But rare.


I think this is a stretch. Perhaps another reason to sue McDonalds.
What if the auto shifts to a gear that delievers to much power to the wheels, thus traction it lost and an accident if inevitable.

Koma

iTrader: (3)

I think Scions manuals are rated less fuel efficient than it's auto brethren. Even though the auto has one less gear than the manual.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Its not really an oddity anymore, its becoming a trend. Give it a couple more years, and all automatics will beat manuals in performance and fuel economy. Face it, manuals are becoming obsolete.

Not a stretch at all, people get distracted all the time, whether its food, phones, shavers, and so on. The scenario I described is not unlikely.


Now, that is a stretch. To lose traction at 45mph, you probably need well over 400lb of torque. In any case, traction control will save you

Blackraven

With that said, how many 2IS sold out there globally are stick shift to begin with?

If it continues to sell that low, then IMHO, I suggest that they drop it in the next gen model hehe . That would save Lexus money cause they would to focus on lesser number of gearboxes and transmissions. And IMHO things are more integrated now

Just like the first time I saw pics of a 2IS with a stickshift that came with a handbrake while those with the auto came with the footbrake. IMHO removing the stick shift in the next model means that Lexus does not need to spend extra on making hand brakes anymore........and as such they can focus their time and resources on other things instead.

In any case, my opinion may not hold much. Nevertheless, if stick shifts continue to go downhill..........then you only have market forces to blame.

P.S.
Slightly off-topic
AFAIK, the only stick shift model that Audi brought into the Philippines was the Audi A4 Avant 3.2 FSI........and even that is a niche model here (as 80% of sales of the new A4 are 1.8 T and 2.0 TFSI models and those come with DSG standard )

jaseman

Well, on this, I can't really argue. But I will say, one of the first things any MT driver learns is that to stop the car, you need to use the clutch pedal in tandem with the brake. Be it an emergency, or just coming to a stop at a light, you learn how to cut power completely to the drive wheel. This is not necessarily true when someone learns to drive in an AT car. While it seems like common sense to most of us here, in this thread, to just pop an AT into neutral in an emergency, the average driver only really understand "gas to go, brake to stop". I personally feel that the popularity of the AT has contributed to less proficient drivers.

Heres the thing. You should not be coming into an intersection blindly, regardless of what color your light is. Years of riding a motorcycle have taught me to ride/drive as if I were invisible. I'm always scanning for potential hazards ahead of me. Even with a cup of coffee in my hands, I'll have dropped a gear or two well before entering an intersection. So by the time that distracted driver runs the light, I'm already in the proper gear to hit the gas and go. I don't have to wait for an AT (no matter how quick it may be) to do it for me.

That's fine for you. As long as you are still pro-active about your driving, it's not a wrong choice. Unfortunately, the AT allows the general driving public to forget that they are still piloting a 2000+lb vehicle, and not sitting in their living room.

Control is more than just steering feel, how the car handles, or what the electronics do or don't do for the driver. It's about understanding why you vehicle does what it does, how to stop it from doing things, and how to react to a constantly changing environment. While an AT is not inherently bad, a MT forces the driver to be more engaged in the driving experience. If more people were forced to drive a stick, I'd be willing to bet that there would be far fewer accidents caused by driver distraction.

Och

iTrader: (3)

You may be one of the very few people on the road that does that. Most people simply drive lousy, no matter what kind of transmission their car has, or what they are driving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K59eMpWsyNE

IS-SV

Since we are drifting as usual here, the best computer is still the human brain.

But on topic, manual trannys for daily drivers in urban settings is a dwindling portion of total car sales.

jaseman

Like my reply to Och, I can't really argue on the state of driver training. Here in the States, we've seemed to forgotten that driving is a privilege, and not a god given right.

AT or MT, yes, you are always going to have bad drivers. But an MT still forces one to be more engaged with the act of driving. We've gotten far, far away from seeing driving as a skill to be learned, and more as just an extension of our living room. The AT is at least partially to blame, as it allows us to become less engaged with the act of driving.


I don't believe in luck when I'm out on the road. Over 20 years of riding MC's have taught me that if your pro-active, every accident is avoidable. Again, while there is nothing inherently wrong with AT's, they do allow complacency to creep in with the average driver. A MT forces one to pay more attention. It may not make you a better driver, but you will be more engaged, and therefore more aware of your surroundings.


See my last reply. Bad drivers are bad drivers. An AT just allows for even more distraction.

jaseman

Which is why I firmly believe everyone should put a season or two on two wheels. (and yes, I know it's not practical)

No traction control, no AT, no airbags, no seatbelts, and no crumple-zones. Your forced to pay attention to everything that your vehicle is doing, and what is happening in your environment in order to survive your travels.

Danimal

While I know that automatics these days are better in essentially every way; I really just like driving a stick is what it boils down to. I feel like I pay more attention to what my car is doing, and I have fun doing it.

I don't notice myself shifting any more. After the first 6 months, it just seems natural; and now I hate driving an auto. I don't drive a stick to feel macho, though maybe it is part of the becoming-a-man-grunting-and-drinking-beer thing; it's a skill I picked up from a friend, and I really like it!

I have informed my fiancee that I will be buying a stick until they quit being made available. If that means on the family road trip that I have to drive the entire way there and back because she doesn't want to drive my car (though she knows how and is good at it); so be it.

SLegacy99

The person is in a 750Li and the traction control is turned off.

Och

iTrader: (3)

And then I'm stretching?! C'mon...