Manual Usage below 10%...
#121
Lexus Champion
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Electronics may not make mistakes per-se, but they do fail. When they do fail, I'd rather trust my human brain.
For those that think an AT is just as worthy in the real world, daily grind of driving, I challange you to spend a year on a motorcycle, riding in all kinds of weather, traffic and terrain. Keeping in the proper gear is more that just fun for spirited riding. It is often a life saver. When that idiot runs the red light as your crossing an intersection, you don't want to hit the gas just to have to wait on the AT to decide when to downshift, and how many gears it needs to drop. On downhills with less that ideal traction, I can decide to leave it in a lower gear, reducing the need for as much brake to be applied.
This ALL transfers over to driving a MT car. And while you can make an AT act like an MT to some degree, the AT allows drivers to get much more complacent. Giving us more time to talk, eat, text, or whatever, and become more distracted as drivers.
I refuse to give up control of my vehicle to a computer, especially when 90% of the other drivers HAVE given up control. I'll think for myself, thank you very much.
For those that think an AT is just as worthy in the real world, daily grind of driving, I challange you to spend a year on a motorcycle, riding in all kinds of weather, traffic and terrain. Keeping in the proper gear is more that just fun for spirited riding. It is often a life saver. When that idiot runs the red light as your crossing an intersection, you don't want to hit the gas just to have to wait on the AT to decide when to downshift, and how many gears it needs to drop. On downhills with less that ideal traction, I can decide to leave it in a lower gear, reducing the need for as much brake to be applied.
This ALL transfers over to driving a MT car. And while you can make an AT act like an MT to some degree, the AT allows drivers to get much more complacent. Giving us more time to talk, eat, text, or whatever, and become more distracted as drivers.
I refuse to give up control of my vehicle to a computer, especially when 90% of the other drivers HAVE given up control. I'll think for myself, thank you very much.
Lets take the scenario you've described above and evaluate a little more. Say you're just minding you business, cruising down the road in your manual car in 5th gear doing 45mph, and holding a cup of coffee in your right hand. All of a sudden you see an idiot running a red light, coming right at you, its too late to brake, you need to downshift and haul yourself out of his way as fast as possible - but now you cant, you're holding a cup of hot coffee with your hand. With automatic, all you have to do is floor the pedal, it will downshift for you and save your life. Furthermore, even if you take the coffee out of the equation, a modern automatic can downshift faster than you might react and downshift manually. Also in an emergency situation you might panic, and downshift into a wrong gear, whereas electronics don't make mistakes.
Me personally, for daily driving, I gladly give up the control of the transmission to the computer.
As far as 90% of drivers giving up control, there are people on this board who come into a BMW thread, boast about control, handling, complain about Lexus' poor steering feel, lack of manuals, and then in the next thread praise the "non-distractive" I-drive, Internet in cars, and complain about Lexus navigation lock-out while driving.
Rominl, this is not directed at you, I don't want you to take it in your direction.
#122
Lexus Fanatic
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Electronics may be faster than humans, but they are not infallible. That's why automakers are constantly doing computer updates/re-flashes. And electronics, though not yet proven, may (?) be behind some of these Toyota-Lexus throttle problems.
#123
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For those that think an AT is just as worthy in the real world
Keeping in the proper gear is more that just fun for spirited riding. It is often a life saver. When that idiot runs the red light as your crossing an intersection, you don't want to hit the gas just to have to wait on the AT to decide when to downshift, and how many gears it needs to drop.
And while you can make an AT act like an MT to some degree, the AT allows drivers to get much more complacent. Giving us more time to talk, eat, text, or whatever, and become more distracted as drivers.
#124
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The Porsche with the PDK is a fine example. But rare.
Lets take the scenario you've described above and evaluate a little more. Say you're just minding you business, cruising down the road in your manual car in 5th gear doing 45mph, and holding a cup of coffee in your right hand. All of a sudden you see an idiot running a red light, coming right at you, its too late to brake, you need to downshift and haul yourself out of his way as fast as possible - but now you cant, you're holding a cup of hot coffee with your hand. With automatic, all you have to do is floor the pedal, it will downshift for you and save your life. Furthermore, even if you take the coffee out of the equation, a modern automatic can downshift faster than you might react and downshift manually. Also in an emergency situation you might panic, and downshift into a wrong gear, whereas electronics don't make mistakes.
What if the auto shifts to a gear that delievers to much power to the wheels, thus traction it lost and an accident if inevitable.
Last edited by SLegacy99; 03-03-10 at 06:12 AM.
#126
Lexus Champion
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Not a stretch at all, people get distracted all the time, whether its food, phones, shavers, and so on. The scenario I described is not unlikely.
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#127
Lexus Champion
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With that said, how many 2IS sold out there globally are stick shift to begin with?
If it continues to sell that low, then IMHO, I suggest that they drop it in the next gen model hehe
. That would save Lexus money cause they would to focus on lesser number of gearboxes and transmissions. And IMHO things are more integrated now
Just like the first time I saw pics of a 2IS with a stickshift that came with a handbrake while those with the auto came with the footbrake. IMHO removing the stick shift in the next model means that Lexus does not need to spend extra on making hand brakes anymore........and as such they can focus their time and resources on other things instead.
In any case, my opinion may not hold much. Nevertheless, if stick shifts continue to go downhill..........then you only have market forces to blame.![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
P.S.
Slightly off-topic
AFAIK, the only stick shift model that Audi brought into the Philippines was the Audi A4 Avant 3.2 FSI........and even that is a niche model here (as 80% of sales of the new A4 are 1.8 T and 2.0 TFSI models and those come with DSG standard
)
If it continues to sell that low, then IMHO, I suggest that they drop it in the next gen model hehe
![Big Grin](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Just like the first time I saw pics of a 2IS with a stickshift that came with a handbrake while those with the auto came with the footbrake. IMHO removing the stick shift in the next model means that Lexus does not need to spend extra on making hand brakes anymore........and as such they can focus their time and resources on other things instead.
In any case, my opinion may not hold much. Nevertheless, if stick shifts continue to go downhill..........then you only have market forces to blame.
![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
P.S.
Slightly off-topic
AFAIK, the only stick shift model that Audi brought into the Philippines was the Audi A4 Avant 3.2 FSI........and even that is a niche model here (as 80% of sales of the new A4 are 1.8 T and 2.0 TFSI models and those come with DSG standard
![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#128
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Well, lets face it, during every day driving, we all get distracted, no matter auto or manual.
Lets take the scenario you've described above and evaluate a little more. Say you're just minding you business, cruising down the road in your manual car in 5th gear doing 45mph, and holding a cup of coffee in your right hand. All of a sudden you see an idiot running a red light, coming right at you, its too late to brake, you need to downshift and haul yourself out of his way as fast as possible - but now you cant, you're holding a cup of hot coffee with your hand. With automatic, all you have to do is floor the pedal, it will downshift for you and save your life. Furthermore, even if you take the coffee out of the equation, a modern automatic can downshift faster than you might react and downshift manually. Also in an emergency situation you might panic, and downshift into a wrong gear, whereas electronics don't make mistakes.
Lets take the scenario you've described above and evaluate a little more. Say you're just minding you business, cruising down the road in your manual car in 5th gear doing 45mph, and holding a cup of coffee in your right hand. All of a sudden you see an idiot running a red light, coming right at you, its too late to brake, you need to downshift and haul yourself out of his way as fast as possible - but now you cant, you're holding a cup of hot coffee with your hand. With automatic, all you have to do is floor the pedal, it will downshift for you and save your life. Furthermore, even if you take the coffee out of the equation, a modern automatic can downshift faster than you might react and downshift manually. Also in an emergency situation you might panic, and downshift into a wrong gear, whereas electronics don't make mistakes.
Me personally, for daily driving, I gladly give up the control of the transmission to the computer.
As far as 90% of drivers giving up control, there are people on this board who come into a BMW thread, boast about control, handling, complain about Lexus' poor steering feel, lack of manuals, and then in the next thread praise the "non-distractive" I-drive, Internet in cars, and complain about Lexus navigation lock-out while driving.
#129
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Heres the thing. You should not be coming into an intersection blindly, regardless of what color your light is. Years of riding a motorcycle have taught me to ride/drive as if I were invisible. I'm always scanning for potential hazards ahead of me. Even with a cup of coffee in my hands, I'll have dropped a gear or two well before entering an intersection. So by the time that distracted driver runs the light, I'm already in the proper gear to hit the gas and go. I don't have to wait for an AT (no matter how quick it may be) to do it for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K59eMpWsyNE
#130
Lexus Fanatic
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Since we are drifting as usual here, the best computer is still the human brain.
But on topic, manual trannys for daily drivers in urban settings is a dwindling portion of total car sales.
But on topic, manual trannys for daily drivers in urban settings is a dwindling portion of total car sales.
#131
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This more highlights a lack of proper driver training in the US, as opposed to suggesting that command of manual transmissions would solve poor driving issues. Granted, manual does require more attention to the cars dynamics and behavior, which is great, but people are poor drivers because its tolerated, while the bar for the licensing process doesn't properly accommodate the actual challenges drivers face on roads. In fact, driver training barely covers counter-intuitive actions, which typically becomes the problem, when people panic. How people react in emergency situations, as is the case in 'sudden acceleration', is its own isolated issue, IMO.
AT or MT, yes, you are always going to have bad drivers. But an MT still forces one to be more engaged with the act of driving. We've gotten far, far away from seeing driving as a skill to be learned, and more as just an extension of our living room. The AT is at least partially to blame, as it allows us to become less engaged with the act of driving.
In such a scenario, much of your chances of getting out of the way when someone is blatantly running a red light, is dependent on luck-- especially if a collision comes down to the time it takes an auto to down-shift, in response to your right foot being depressed. I'd even argue that your tires traction in the moment have more bearing on the outcome of what happens in this scenario, as opposed to manual vs auto.
While there is some truth in this, I'd say where there is a will, there is a way. I have friends who drive MT, who just as well eat and talk on the phone between shifts, or just get generally careless as they drive, because they feel comfortable enough in their ability to pilot the car. In fact, I'd say this is something many people are guilty of, which is what leads to the above behaviors-- people get comfortable and confident of their skills, up until the point where natural human error occurs (whether it be their fault, or lack of response to another persons error).
#132
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You may be one of the very few people on the road that does that. Most people simply drive lousy, no matter what kind of transmission their car has, or what they are driving.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K59eMpWsyNE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K59eMpWsyNE
No traction control, no AT, no airbags, no seatbelts, and no crumple-zones. Your forced to pay attention to everything that your vehicle is doing, and what is happening in your environment in order to survive your travels.
#133
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While I know that automatics these days are better in essentially every way; I really just like driving a stick is what it boils down to. I feel like I pay more attention to what my car is doing, and I have fun doing it.
I don't notice myself shifting any more. After the first 6 months, it just seems natural; and now I hate driving an auto. I don't drive a stick to feel macho, though maybe it is part of the becoming-a-man-grunting-and-drinking-beer thing; it's a skill I picked up from a friend, and I really like it!
I have informed my fiancee that I will be buying a stick until they quit being made available. If that means on the family road trip that I have to drive the entire way there and back because she doesn't want to drive my car (though she knows how and is good at it); so be it.
I don't notice myself shifting any more. After the first 6 months, it just seems natural; and now I hate driving an auto. I don't drive a stick to feel macho, though maybe it is part of the becoming-a-man-grunting-and-drinking-beer thing; it's a skill I picked up from a friend, and I really like it!
I have informed my fiancee that I will be buying a stick until they quit being made available. If that means on the family road trip that I have to drive the entire way there and back because she doesn't want to drive my car (though she knows how and is good at it); so be it.
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#134