V6, V8 Engines Lose Ground in 2009
03-20-10, 11:35 AM
#46
They actually do that with some mid-sized models in Europe, which are not available here in America. Due to a number of factors involving taxes and gas prices, smaller gas engines are much more popular in Europe than here....so are diesels.
I'm not enough of an engineer to be able to answer that question in detail, but I can see at least some drawbacks to trying to cool an electric motor with a radiator/fan/coolant system like with gas engines. The water pump would place an additional load on the engine, draining even more battery power when you want as much cruising range as possible. What's more, electric motors don't have a "block", with chambers in it for coolant flow/water jackets, like a typical gas-engine does.
I'm not enough of an engineer to be able to answer that question in detail, but I can see at least some drawbacks to trying to cool an electric motor with a radiator/fan/coolant system like with gas engines. The water pump would place an additional load on the engine, draining even more battery power when you want as much cruising range as possible. What's more, electric motors don't have a "block", with chambers in it for coolant flow/water jackets, like a typical gas-engine does.
03-20-10, 11:43 AM
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Its been a while since I poked around into this, but the last time I checked the 2.0L Impreza get the same mileage as the 1.5L. Obviously the 2.0L has quite a bit more power.
03-20-10, 12:45 PM
#48
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Well the thing is the LS makes 380hp with only 4.6 liters while the S550 makes 382hp with 5.5 liters, nearly a liter bigger! I believe acceleration times are close.
BMW now offers the 740 with the tt I-6 as a new base engine. Will a LS 350 or 450h come?
I don't believe in 4 cylinders just b/c and the assumption they are more efficient. The RX 450h gets 30 mpg, better than most I-4s.
Also the 6 cylinder IS 250 only gets 1 MPG less than the I-4 in the TSX and A4 (they all make around 200hp). I much prefer the extra cylinders.
BMW now offers the 740 with the tt I-6 as a new base engine. Will a LS 350 or 450h come?
I don't believe in 4 cylinders just b/c and the assumption they are more efficient. The RX 450h gets 30 mpg, better than most I-4s.
Also the 6 cylinder IS 250 only gets 1 MPG less than the I-4 in the TSX and A4 (they all make around 200hp). I much prefer the extra cylinders.
As for the LS, I've never driven an LS460L, but I've driven the SWB LS many times and I find the engine more than adequate. I've also driven the S550, but I'd probably have to drive an LS460L to get a real apple to apples comparison of how the two drive.
I think an LS400h in the next gen might be a given since BMW and Mercedes both have V6 flagships now...
But you are missing the point. The Sonata has a DI 2.4L. Its not about what kind of HP you can get out of it. Its about efficiency. Note that the Honda 2.4L is not efficient in comparison to other vehicles in its class.
So the Sonata has 198 HP and gets 35 MPG Hwy. My opinion is that is an uneccessary amount of HP for a base model transportation vehicle. Thus I think that Toyota, Honda, whomever would do well with a direct injected engine of smaller displacement. Presumably it would be more efficient.
Electric motors are nice.
I don't follow. Your preference is for normally aspirated, forced induction engines?
Anyway, yes this is what I am saying. People will always want 6 and 8 cylinder engines and that they don't need to be as large anymore to put down alot of power.
I never said that. I said that if the government did it wouldnt matter because many companies have been able to make alot of power with small engines. Looks at rallying. I have no problem if someone wants to upgrade from say a 4 cylinder Camry to a 6. But as engines continue to become more powerful I just think its kind of silly given said vehicle's drivetrain and purpose.
Two points.
1. I can't believe that you wrote this. Of course the RX450h gets better mileage, it's a hybrid. It has a huge advantage. Nevertheless, Camry, Fusion, Legacy all get better hwy mileage than the 450h. I think that a 2.5L I4 RX hybrid would do better than 3.5L hybrid.
2. The TSX has an ailing 4 cylinder engine in which Vtech craps it up. The A4 is rated for 22/30 (AWD) compared to the 20/26 of the IS (AWD) or 21/29 (RWD). The A4 also has a buttload more torque and is significantly quicker.
So the Sonata has 198 HP and gets 35 MPG Hwy. My opinion is that is an uneccessary amount of HP for a base model transportation vehicle. Thus I think that Toyota, Honda, whomever would do well with a direct injected engine of smaller displacement. Presumably it would be more efficient.
Electric motors are nice.
I don't follow. Your preference is for normally aspirated, forced induction engines?
Anyway, yes this is what I am saying. People will always want 6 and 8 cylinder engines and that they don't need to be as large anymore to put down alot of power.
I never said that. I said that if the government did it wouldnt matter because many companies have been able to make alot of power with small engines. Looks at rallying. I have no problem if someone wants to upgrade from say a 4 cylinder Camry to a 6. But as engines continue to become more powerful I just think its kind of silly given said vehicle's drivetrain and purpose.
Two points.
1. I can't believe that you wrote this. Of course the RX450h gets better mileage, it's a hybrid. It has a huge advantage. Nevertheless, Camry, Fusion, Legacy all get better hwy mileage than the 450h. I think that a 2.5L I4 RX hybrid would do better than 3.5L hybrid.
2. The TSX has an ailing 4 cylinder engine in which Vtech craps it up. The A4 is rated for 22/30 (AWD) compared to the 20/26 of the IS (AWD) or 21/29 (RWD). The A4 also has a buttload more torque and is significantly quicker.
Alright, but look at the #s.
2010 Camry
6MT: 22/33
6AT: 22/32
2011 Sonata
6MT: 24/35
6AT: 22/35
Sure, engine speed has to do with it. But so does engine size. And I am not talking about plopping a 1.5L into a midsize. That would more than likely be detrimental to fuel economy.
And this is a topic that hasn't been given as much attention as I had thought, given overheating issues have been a concern for the future of high powered electric vehicles. Do they have to be air cooled?
2010 Camry
6MT: 22/33
6AT: 22/32
2011 Sonata
6MT: 24/35
6AT: 22/35
Sure, engine speed has to do with it. But so does engine size. And I am not talking about plopping a 1.5L into a midsize. That would more than likely be detrimental to fuel economy.
And this is a topic that hasn't been given as much attention as I had thought, given overheating issues have been a concern for the future of high powered electric vehicles. Do they have to be air cooled?
If Toyota were to go that route they'd probably have to have a cheaper non-DI I4 to sell for less than $20K. Then they'd have 3 different I4 options and not only that but the super efficient DI model would eat into hybrid sales...
03-20-10, 02:17 PM
#49
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Do we even know the official pricing on the DI I4 Sonata?
If Toyota were to go that route they'd probably have to have a cheaper non-DI I4 to sell for less than $20K. Then they'd have 3 different I4 options and not only that but the super efficient DI model would eat into hybrid sales...
If Toyota were to go that route they'd probably have to have a cheaper non-DI I4 to sell for less than $20K. Then they'd have 3 different I4 options and not only that but the super efficient DI model would eat into hybrid sales...
A more efficient Camry wouldn't eat into hybrid sales ya know why? Because it could have the same engine. Note that Toyota hasn't installed in the new 2.5L I4 into the Camry Hybrid nor has it installed the 3.5L into the Highlander hybrid. Both would account for gains in efficiency and potency. Yet we haven't heard anything. I wonder if Toyota has something up their sleeve. Afterall, the Fusion Hybrid has 8 MPG on the Camry. They have to do something.
03-20-10, 02:35 PM
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http://www.volvocars.com/intl/campai...s/default.aspx
The actual S60 that we will get in the U.S. for 2011 will get a 300 HP 3.0L. However, other engines are to follow. Being considered are the 2.5L T from the S40 and the new 1.6L DI Turbo. Now I wouldnt be surprised if the 1.6L were only offered in Europe. Nevertheless, it emphasizes my point that smaller displacements in midsize vehicles are a reality. And not just for diesels anymore.
The actual S60 that we will get in the U.S. for 2011 will get a 300 HP 3.0L. However, other engines are to follow. Being considered are the 2.5L T from the S40 and the new 1.6L DI Turbo. Now I wouldnt be surprised if the 1.6L were only offered in Europe. Nevertheless, it emphasizes my point that smaller displacements in midsize vehicles are a reality. And not just for diesels anymore.
03-20-10, 03:22 PM
#51
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Yes. The Sonata is on sale. $19,195.
A more efficient Camry wouldn't eat into hybrid sales ya know why? Because it could have the same engine. Note that Toyota hasn't installed in the new 2.5L I4 into the Camry Hybrid nor has it installed the 3.5L into the Highlander hybrid. Both would account for gains in efficiency and potency. Yet we haven't heard anything. I wonder if Toyota has something up their sleeve. Afterall, the Fusion Hybrid has 8 MPG on the Camry. They have to do something.
A more efficient Camry wouldn't eat into hybrid sales ya know why? Because it could have the same engine. Note that Toyota hasn't installed in the new 2.5L I4 into the Camry Hybrid nor has it installed the 3.5L into the Highlander hybrid. Both would account for gains in efficiency and potency. Yet we haven't heard anything. I wonder if Toyota has something up their sleeve. Afterall, the Fusion Hybrid has 8 MPG on the Camry. They have to do something.
The reason I would presume is because of the cost of the DI engine. Now on average Korean cars are always a few grand less than Japanese likely because of exchange rates and profit margins, so if the DI Sonata cost more than the Camry, how much would a DI Camry cost?
In the entry level midsize market people are VERY cost conscious so Toyota wouldn't be able to get away with having the Camry's base price at $23K or $25K.
THIS IS WHY I DON'T THINK A DI CAMRY IS LIKELY. If we do see one, there will probably be a cheap non-DI model for the sub-$20K market.
Now a DI Camry hybrid would be way too expensive. If Toyota does ANY DI I4 hybrids I think the HS would be a great candidate. The Camry needs something relatively cheap and very efficient. The current hybrid setup already costs too much IMO.
I would expect a 2.5L I4 hybrid system with a retarded throttle if they wanted to match the Fusion's numbers.
03-20-10, 03:26 PM
#52
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Toyota had better get the throttles they have NOW repaired and working properly before they think about designing any new ones. That would be putting the cart before the horse.
03-20-10, 03:45 PM
#53
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THIS IS WHY I DON'T THINK A DI CAMRY IS LIKELY. If we do see one, there will probably be a cheap non-DI model for the sub-$20K market.
Now a DI Camry hybrid would be way too expensive. If Toyota does ANY DI I4 hybrids I think the HS would be a great candidate. The Camry needs something relatively cheap and very efficient. The current hybrid setup already costs too much IMO.
Now a DI Camry hybrid would be way too expensive. If Toyota does ANY DI I4 hybrids I think the HS would be a great candidate. The Camry needs something relatively cheap and very efficient. The current hybrid setup already costs too much IMO.
03-20-10, 04:46 PM
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Two points.
1. I can't believe that you wrote this. Of course the RX450h gets better mileage, it's a hybrid. It has a huge advantage. Nevertheless, Camry, Fusion, Legacy all get better hwy mileage than the 450h. I think that a 2.5L I4 RX hybrid would do better than 3.5L hybrid.
2. The TSX has an ailing 4 cylinder engine in which Vtech craps it up. The A4 is rated for 22/30 (AWD) compared to the 20/26 of the IS (AWD) or 21/29 (RWD). The A4 also has a buttload more torque and is significantly quicker.
Even the SMART car with a 3 cylinder gets pretty pissy economy, barely 35 MPG.
I do think some of the new generation of 4 cylinders are better but I have never been a fan. Too wheezy, have to rev it to get any power and they are loud and rougher than a 6, even with equal power.
It reminds me of the old Town Car argument. Yeah it only had 210hp for a V-8 but it was smooth as butter.
I hate to bring up the 450h again but if a big 4500lbs .38 or so cd rated SUV can get 30 mpg with a V-6 and a hybrid, well to me the I-4 better be getting 50 MPG or so for me to be attracted to it.
Or be the Subie/WRX turbo
03-20-10, 09:31 PM
#55
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Well I disagree. One, Toyota is not going to allow Hyundai or whomever comes next unseat them from their throne. Two, CAFE standards. The current Camry hybrid doesnt meet them, much less a regular Camry. And the current Camry hybrid costs what it does because its got features. By the time that you add them in, which people do get lots of options these days, the premium isn't that great.
The Accord hybrid was dropped primarily because it cost substantially more and didn't drive much different (or give much better mileage) than a conventional Accord. The difference is more pronounced between conventional and hybrid Camrys than it ws with the Accord (partly because Camrys have a more sophisticated hybrid system than Honda's IMA), but still, as you note, even the Camry hybrid isn't helping that much in meeting the new CAFE figures.
03-20-10, 10:54 PM
#56
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I wouldn't be surprised to see the Camry hybrid as being (possibly) the next Toyota model dropped....just as the Accord hybrid was a few years ago. Most of the hybrid attention, of course, is on the Prius.....that's where Toyota will need to concentrate its production.
People who are shopping for a bare bones Camry will always buy a bare bones Camry and not a hybrid.
Also Camry Hybrid is the first Toyota Hybrid built in the United States. This is significant because Toyota really wants to build more hybrids in the US. This gets production going, just like when Tundra V8 engines started in 2005, now they build all Toyota Tundra/Sequoia V8 engines in the US. Toyota wants hybrids to be built in the US. The Prius will be a USA built model soon.
Couple of things to keep in mind, dollar for dollar the Camry and Prius match up well. If you take the outstanding MPG claim of the Prius out of the question then the Camry is a better car in almost every category than the Prius. That is IMO of course.
When one is shopping for the Prius, you cannot overlook the Camry when shopping.
03-21-10, 07:50 AM
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03-21-10, 07:53 AM
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I wouldn't be surprised if Honda brought back the Accord hybrid and priced it competitively with the Fusion and Camry.
03-21-10, 10:33 AM
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I
I agree. I feel like the Camry and Prius attract different buyers. The Camry maintains that element of fun in the vehicle whereas the Prius is all eco business. I would say that one in three Camry's I see in my area is a hybrid. Sure sales have lagged off some, but with the market and the Camry hybrid needing a refreshed powertrain to compete, well I would expect this.
I wouldn't be surprised if Honda brought back the Accord hybrid and priced it competitively with the Fusion and Camry.
I agree. I feel like the Camry and Prius attract different buyers. The Camry maintains that element of fun in the vehicle whereas the Prius is all eco business. I would say that one in three Camry's I see in my area is a hybrid. Sure sales have lagged off some, but with the market and the Camry hybrid needing a refreshed powertrain to compete, well I would expect this.
I wouldn't be surprised if Honda brought back the Accord hybrid and priced it competitively with the Fusion and Camry.