1SICKBLOG: Lexus future product expansion and balance
03-24-10, 12:50 PM
#1
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1SICKBLOG: Lexus future product expansion and balance
I could be totally wrong here but I've been thinking about Lexus expansion since 2006 and where the SC is going (or not going
) as well as the IS C. Someone then hit me with some words recently that got me thinking. It was "Lexus is going to expand their existing lineup in the future".
So what does that mean exactly? The HS, CT and LFA are 3 new lines for this brand so it can't mean that especially since they seem to sold in a single engine configuration.
Expansion
It has to mean more in lines of what the IS has become for example. It went from sedan only to sedan with 2 engines here and 4 worldwide. It then got the "F" option, "F-sport" option(s) and then the "C" for convertible.
Clearly taking a page out of the German book and it seems to work for the brand.
We have heard from Toyota/Lexus themselves say "all vehicles will have a hybrid option" so the ISh will come ala the RXh and GSh.
Going to the GS I am going out on a limb here and say expect a GSh, GS F and a
GS C. It might not be a hardtop coupe/convert or it just might be more GT than sports car with more space, ala a bigger "SC 430". I cannot see the GS line remaining sedan only for another generation nor without a super sedan another generation. I think Lexus knows there is a market for people that want a super Japanese sedan. The IS F showed people want the M3 competitor. So the M5 competitor must come. Now what does this do?
This allows the next SC to be more sporty in character ala a baby LFA. We all know the LFA is a fantastic "halo" but it has no coupe to cast it on.
I expect the next SC to take this halo and becoming more sporty and larger, maybe back to the 1SC in roots.
I would love to see a LS C, a true big GT but it won't happen. If you look at Benz sales the CL sells under 100 units a month. To complicate matters the Bentley Coupe can be had used now.
What about the ES? I don't see why an ES C would not work. A nice big comfy coupe or even hardtop convert from 35-50k. There is no one else here, all the other cars are small convertibles. Look not everyone wants a harsh riding small car. The older demographic is growing and with Caddy/Lincoln not having this option Lexus should offer it.
I expect to see the IS and GS grow in length so when the next CT comes, there will be a 2 door coupe and maybe even a traditional sedan option.
While SUV coupe thingies are trendy, they sell in small numbers, seem to hurt a brands image and Lexus would have to build off the GS platform (ala HPX) instead of the RX. The RX even with the sport suspension is a step behind other sporty SUVs. So don't expect that.
SUV expansion?
Getting to "Cute-Utes" Lexus has stated the sales do not indicate they need to enter and every month we see this as true. A Cute-Ute from Lexus would probably be based off the Rav-4 instead of the shortned IS frame. It would be in size similar to the 1RX. Now the thing is SUVs in Europe are growing in popularity and a small CX sized SUV hybrid might appeal to people there.
As for the GX, LX I don't expect any "F" vehicles soon
but they are going to have to fit that hybrid tech with that 4x4 ruggedness without having a price that causes laughter.
Its funny to think the brochure in 1990 had 2 vehicles (ES/LS).
In summary Lexus is going to expand even more the next ten years (captain obvious here). They are not scaling back plans b/c of the economy, they see the big picture. Lexus biggest challenge will be balance;
-Lexus has a very happy traditional base of customer who love the comfort. They also have this reputation so new buyers expect this comfort. They ware going to have to continue to offer these vehicles to customers
-Lexus has a growing enthusiast and sporty customer who wants comfort but will lean toward sport. They want traditional Lexus features in a more exciting package.
-small and luxury is going to have to co-exist. Conspicuous Consumption will not return as "Cool" for a long time.
Lexus marketing has a challenge here.
How do they blend these 3 distinct customers to the same brand? How do they continue to say what Lexus stands for? Is it luxury, is it hybrid, is it sport? We can all agree even in 2010, Lexus to most, stands for comfort and luxury. The LS/ES/RX SUVs still remain the "face" of Lexus. The IS/GS/LFA simply are not the first Lexus you think of in regards to the average consumer. We have to applaud and give credit to Lexus for not giving up and for turning out more sporty offerings. It would have been very very EASY for Lexus to say "hey its not working, people want luxury only". They didn't. They took the hard road and the ultimate hard road with the LFA.
The LFA is not a turning point for Lexus. It is not a point where Lexus is going to abandon traditional customers for sporty customers only. Rather it is an acknowledgment of a side its had but never really shouted to anyone. A statement, that Lexus can also offer blood boiling excitement and if you didn't know that, you will know very very soon.
) as well as the IS C. Someone then hit me with some words recently that got me thinking. It was "Lexus is going to expand their existing lineup in the future". So what does that mean exactly? The HS, CT and LFA are 3 new lines for this brand so it can't mean that especially since they seem to sold in a single engine configuration.
Expansion
It has to mean more in lines of what the IS has become for example. It went from sedan only to sedan with 2 engines here and 4 worldwide. It then got the "F" option, "F-sport" option(s) and then the "C" for convertible.
Clearly taking a page out of the German book and it seems to work for the brand.
We have heard from Toyota/Lexus themselves say "all vehicles will have a hybrid option" so the ISh will come ala the RXh and GSh.
Going to the GS I am going out on a limb here and say expect a GSh, GS F and a
GS C. It might not be a hardtop coupe/convert or it just might be more GT than sports car with more space, ala a bigger "SC 430". I cannot see the GS line remaining sedan only for another generation nor without a super sedan another generation. I think Lexus knows there is a market for people that want a super Japanese sedan. The IS F showed people want the M3 competitor. So the M5 competitor must come. Now what does this do?This allows the next SC to be more sporty in character ala a baby LFA. We all know the LFA is a fantastic "halo" but it has no coupe to cast it on.
I expect the next SC to take this halo and becoming more sporty and larger, maybe back to the 1SC in roots. I would love to see a LS C, a true big GT but it won't happen. If you look at Benz sales the CL sells under 100 units a month. To complicate matters the Bentley Coupe can be had used now.
What about the ES? I don't see why an ES C would not work. A nice big comfy coupe or even hardtop convert from 35-50k. There is no one else here, all the other cars are small convertibles. Look not everyone wants a harsh riding small car. The older demographic is growing and with Caddy/Lincoln not having this option Lexus should offer it.
I expect to see the IS and GS grow in length so when the next CT comes, there will be a 2 door coupe and maybe even a traditional sedan option.
While SUV coupe thingies are trendy, they sell in small numbers, seem to hurt a brands image and Lexus would have to build off the GS platform (ala HPX) instead of the RX. The RX even with the sport suspension is a step behind other sporty SUVs. So don't expect that.
SUV expansion?
Getting to "Cute-Utes" Lexus has stated the sales do not indicate they need to enter and every month we see this as true. A Cute-Ute from Lexus would probably be based off the Rav-4 instead of the shortned IS frame. It would be in size similar to the 1RX. Now the thing is SUVs in Europe are growing in popularity and a small CX sized SUV hybrid might appeal to people there.
As for the GX, LX I don't expect any "F" vehicles soon
but they are going to have to fit that hybrid tech with that 4x4 ruggedness without having a price that causes laughter.Its funny to think the brochure in 1990 had 2 vehicles (ES/LS).
In summary Lexus is going to expand even more the next ten years (captain obvious here
). They are not scaling back plans b/c of the economy, they see the big picture. Lexus biggest challenge will be balance;-Lexus has a very happy traditional base of customer who love the comfort. They also have this reputation so new buyers expect this comfort. They ware going to have to continue to offer these vehicles to customers
-Lexus has a growing enthusiast and sporty customer who wants comfort but will lean toward sport. They want traditional Lexus features in a more exciting package.
-small and luxury is going to have to co-exist. Conspicuous Consumption will not return as "Cool" for a long time.
Lexus marketing has a challenge here.
How do they blend these 3 distinct customers to the same brand? How do they continue to say what Lexus stands for? Is it luxury, is it hybrid, is it sport? We can all agree even in 2010, Lexus to most, stands for comfort and luxury. The LS/ES/RX SUVs still remain the "face" of Lexus. The IS/GS/LFA simply are not the first Lexus you think of in regards to the average consumer. We have to applaud and give credit to Lexus for not giving up and for turning out more sporty offerings. It would have been very very EASY for Lexus to say "hey its not working, people want luxury only". They didn't. They took the hard road and the ultimate hard road with the LFA.
The LFA is not a turning point for Lexus. It is not a point where Lexus is going to abandon traditional customers for sporty customers only. Rather it is an acknowledgment of a side its had but never really shouted to anyone. A statement, that Lexus can also offer blood boiling excitement and if you didn't know that, you will know very very soon.
03-24-10, 01:04 PM
#2
While I agree with your general statement that they will expand, I hope they will expand SLOWLY, taking time and care to design new models, and not rush them out. I think the current IS-C is a perfect example of a rushed out Lexus model, and it shows in several areas.
ES Coupe would be a great idea. I think Solara used to be a good product, I remember considering it at one point about five-six years ago.
But my main wish is the IS-Coupe (non convertible). They are missing out on a lot of sales by not having a coupe.
ES Coupe would be a great idea. I think Solara used to be a good product, I remember considering it at one point about five-six years ago.
But my main wish is the IS-Coupe (non convertible). They are missing out on a lot of sales by not having a coupe.
03-24-10, 01:27 PM
#3
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Great post as always 
The IS line more than any other needs to expand with more body style options akin to the 3 series. The GS line also really needs to expand. The most important thing for the GS is getting an "F" model in the next generation as well as continuing to offer V6, V6 hybrid and V8 engines. A GS Coupe isn't essential.
We don't know if Lexus is going to go the Mercedes route and have a Coupe version of all the core sedans (C Coupe, E Coupe, S Coupe), or if they'll go the BMW route of having a 1/3 Coupe and then a separate series Coupe, the 6 series. If they were to follow BMW that means we'll see an IS Coupe and possibly a CT Coupe, and the SC will come to fight the 6 series (meaning the SC would in fact come back bigger).
As far as the expansion of the "F" marque, they need a new V10 or FI V8 that produces 500+hp. That one engine can be put in the GS, the LS, and the SC. That would up Lexus's profile greatly...
One thing on my mind is if there can be "F" versions of Lexus's dedicated hybrid models (such as the HS and CT). A CT-F would be a great car especially for Europe. It could use the RXh's hybrid setup tuned toward performance. An HS F could use a DI 3.5L engine and electric motor setup similar to the GS's good for 340hp.
Lastly I'm going to comment on the LUVs because I don't want my post to be too long
Lexus may get a Cute Ute, but according to jruhi (sp?) it'll be based on the Euro Rav 4, meaning it'll compete more or less with the X1 not the X3 and it won't cannabalize the RX too much.
I'd like to see the RX get a LWB model with 3 rows of seats, and I don't think I want to see hybrid GX and LX. It may happen and I'd be interested in how Lexus pulls it off, if they do make them.
The IS line more than any other needs to expand with more body style options akin to the 3 series. The GS line also really needs to expand. The most important thing for the GS is getting an "F" model in the next generation as well as continuing to offer V6, V6 hybrid and V8 engines. A GS Coupe isn't essential.
We don't know if Lexus is going to go the Mercedes route and have a Coupe version of all the core sedans (C Coupe, E Coupe, S Coupe), or if they'll go the BMW route of having a 1/3 Coupe and then a separate series Coupe, the 6 series. If they were to follow BMW that means we'll see an IS Coupe and possibly a CT Coupe, and the SC will come to fight the 6 series (meaning the SC would in fact come back bigger).
As far as the expansion of the "F" marque, they need a new V10 or FI V8 that produces 500+hp. That one engine can be put in the GS, the LS, and the SC. That would up Lexus's profile greatly...
One thing on my mind is if there can be "F" versions of Lexus's dedicated hybrid models (such as the HS and CT). A CT-F would be a great car especially for Europe. It could use the RXh's hybrid setup tuned toward performance. An HS F could use a DI 3.5L engine and electric motor setup similar to the GS's good for 340hp.
Lastly I'm going to comment on the LUVs because I don't want my post to be too long
Lexus may get a Cute Ute, but according to jruhi (sp?) it'll be based on the Euro Rav 4, meaning it'll compete more or less with the X1 not the X3 and it won't cannabalize the RX too much.
I'd like to see the RX get a LWB model with 3 rows of seats, and I don't think I want to see hybrid GX and LX. It may happen and I'd be interested in how Lexus pulls it off, if they do make them.
Last edited by (Cj); 03-24-10 at 01:32 PM.
03-24-10, 02:13 PM
#5
Great post Mike!
The only thing I second guess is the necessity of an ES coupe. As a soft, cuddly cruiser I can see a business case for something similar but if/when a GS coupe arrives I feel like it could create the same sibling-rivalry that's already seen between the ES and GS. Not to mention that the IS will be positioned right there as well.
I also think it's absolutely necessary to offer AWD on all non-F variants- i.e. IS 350, GS 460, etc. This is a deal breaker for most people in adverse climates!
The only thing I second guess is the necessity of an ES coupe. As a soft, cuddly cruiser I can see a business case for something similar but if/when a GS coupe arrives I feel like it could create the same sibling-rivalry that's already seen between the ES and GS. Not to mention that the IS will be positioned right there as well.
I also think it's absolutely necessary to offer AWD on all non-F variants- i.e. IS 350, GS 460, etc. This is a deal breaker for most people in adverse climates!
03-24-10, 02:17 PM
#6
Moderator
What about the ES? I don't see why an ES C would not work. A nice big comfy coupe or even hardtop convert from 35-50k. There is no one else here, all the other cars are small convertibles. Look not everyone wants a harsh riding small car. The older demographic is growing and with Caddy/Lincoln not having this option Lexus should offer it.
Totally agree with you. Lexus has come a long way hasn't it?
Last edited by Trexus; 03-24-10 at 03:37 PM.
03-24-10, 03:33 PM
#7
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While I agree with your general statement that they will expand, I hope they will expand SLOWLY, taking time and care to design new models, and not rush them out. I think the current IS-C is a perfect example of a rushed out Lexus model, and it shows in several areas.
ES Coupe would be a great idea. I think Solara used to be a good product, I remember considering it at one point about five-six years ago.
But my main wish is the IS-Coupe (non convertible). They are missing out on a lot of sales by not having a coupe.
ES Coupe would be a great idea. I think Solara used to be a good product, I remember considering it at one point about five-six years ago.
But my main wish is the IS-Coupe (non convertible). They are missing out on a lot of sales by not having a coupe.
Great post as always
The IS line more than any other needs to expand with more body style options akin to the 3 series. The GS line also really needs to expand. The most important thing for the GS is getting an "F" model in the next generation as well as continuing to offer V6, V6 hybrid and V8 engines. A GS Coupe isn't essential.
We don't know if Lexus is going to go the Mercedes route and have a Coupe version of all the core sedans (C Coupe, E Coupe, S Coupe), or if they'll go the BMW route of having a 1/3 Coupe and then a separate series Coupe, the 6 series. If they were to follow BMW that means we'll see an IS Coupe and possibly a CT Coupe, and the SC will come to fight the 6 series (meaning the SC would in fact come back bigger).
As far as the expansion of the "F" marque, they need a new V10 or FI V8 that produces 500+hp. That one engine can be put in the GS, the LS, and the SC. That would up Lexus's profile greatly...
One thing on my mind is if there can be "F" versions of Lexus's dedicated hybrid models (such as the HS and CT). A CT-F would be a great car especially for Europe. It could use the RXh's hybrid setup tuned toward performance. An HS F could use a DI 3.5L engine and electric motor setup similar to the GS's good for 340hp.
Lastly I'm going to comment on the LUVs because I don't want my post to be too long
Lexus may get a Cute Ute, but according to jruhi (sp?) it'll be based on the Euro Rav 4, meaning it'll compete more or less with the X1 not the X3 and it won't cannabalize the RX too much.
I'd like to see the RX get a LWB model with 3 rows of seats, and I don't think I want to see hybrid GX and LX. It may happen and I'd be interested in how Lexus pulls it off, if they do make them.
The IS line more than any other needs to expand with more body style options akin to the 3 series. The GS line also really needs to expand. The most important thing for the GS is getting an "F" model in the next generation as well as continuing to offer V6, V6 hybrid and V8 engines. A GS Coupe isn't essential.
We don't know if Lexus is going to go the Mercedes route and have a Coupe version of all the core sedans (C Coupe, E Coupe, S Coupe), or if they'll go the BMW route of having a 1/3 Coupe and then a separate series Coupe, the 6 series. If they were to follow BMW that means we'll see an IS Coupe and possibly a CT Coupe, and the SC will come to fight the 6 series (meaning the SC would in fact come back bigger).
As far as the expansion of the "F" marque, they need a new V10 or FI V8 that produces 500+hp. That one engine can be put in the GS, the LS, and the SC. That would up Lexus's profile greatly...
One thing on my mind is if there can be "F" versions of Lexus's dedicated hybrid models (such as the HS and CT). A CT-F would be a great car especially for Europe. It could use the RXh's hybrid setup tuned toward performance. An HS F could use a DI 3.5L engine and electric motor setup similar to the GS's good for 340hp.
Lastly I'm going to comment on the LUVs because I don't want my post to be too long
Lexus may get a Cute Ute, but according to jruhi (sp?) it'll be based on the Euro Rav 4, meaning it'll compete more or less with the X1 not the X3 and it won't cannabalize the RX too much.
I'd like to see the RX get a LWB model with 3 rows of seats, and I don't think I want to see hybrid GX and LX. It may happen and I'd be interested in how Lexus pulls it off, if they do make them.
lol....doubt those come
Great post Mike!
The only thing I second guess is the necessity of an ES coupe. As a soft, cuddly cruiser I can see a business case for something similar but if/when a GS coupe arrives I feel like it could create the same sibling-rivalry that's already seen between the ES and GS. Not to mention that the IS will be positioned right there as well.
I also think it's absolutely necessary to offer AWD on all non-F variants- i.e. IS 350, GS 460, etc. This is a deal breaker for most people in adverse climates!
The only thing I second guess is the necessity of an ES coupe. As a soft, cuddly cruiser I can see a business case for something similar but if/when a GS coupe arrives I feel like it could create the same sibling-rivalry that's already seen between the ES and GS. Not to mention that the IS will be positioned right there as well.
I also think it's absolutely necessary to offer AWD on all non-F variants- i.e. IS 350, GS 460, etc. This is a deal breaker for most people in adverse climates!
Good points about more AWD models.
Lexus has expanded the IS line with the IS sedan, IS convertible and IS F high performance. Lexus could expand the IS line even further with an IS h hybrid and IS sportcross wagon.
Currently the ES still outsells the IS even with the expanded IS line. Lexus could expand the ES line with an ES h hybrid and an ES C hardtop coupe based of the Solara.
Totally agree with you. Lexus has come a long way hasn't it?
Currently the ES still outsells the IS even with the expanded IS line. Lexus could expand the ES line with an ES h hybrid and an ES C hardtop coupe based of the Solara.
Totally agree with you. Lexus has come a long way hasn't it?
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03-24-10, 03:42 PM
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Well Lexus might do something like this with the ES...
I think a slopped-back hatchback is more likely than a Coupe, especially if the 5 series GT really takes off...
Could you imagine if Lexus made slopped back versions of the ES and HS? I shutter at the thought, but this is the same company that gave us a Convertible before giving us a Coupe...
I think a slopped-back hatchback is more likely than a Coupe, especially if the 5 series GT really takes off...
Could you imagine if Lexus made slopped back versions of the ES and HS? I shutter at the thought, but this is the same company that gave us a Convertible before giving us a Coupe...
03-24-10, 03:47 PM
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The next gen IS will likely be bigger (A4/HS/C size) so the days of the ES outselling it are probably numbered. I think the main reason sales are lowish now is because the backseat is REALLY tight. A bigger backseat plus more body styles could help the IS sell closer to C class/G37 levels.
03-24-10, 03:53 PM
#10
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The next gen IS will likely be bigger (A4/HS/C size) so the days of the ES outselling it are probably numbered. I think the main reason sales are lowish now is because the backseat is REALLY tight. A bigger backseat plus more body styles could help the IS sell closer to C class/G37 levels.
03-24-10, 04:03 PM
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I agree. Also the ES has been around for awhile while the IS line is relatively new. The ES is in it's 5th generation while the IS is in it's 2nd generation. I'm sure if the ES (5th generation) and the IS (5th generation) came out at the same time the IS would be outselling the ES by now...
A bigger next gen IS that's comparable with the A4 in size, interior quality, and price would be a winner.
03-24-10, 04:15 PM
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I wonder what the developments costs are for comig out with additional variants for any of the Lexus lines. When you look at 3-series and 5-series sales, since these cars sell in significantly higher volume, not to mention higher transaction prices, BMW can spread out their development costs across the whole model range.
GS sales are really bad at least relative to the E-class and 5-series. Is it realistic to see a GS F or GS C? Could Lexus assume if they build these models that buyers will come?
I'm all for a more diversified Lexus line-up but my sentiments are like Och, please expand, but expand carefully. I would maintain that the HS was rushed out. The HS should of had a more efficient powerplant/powertrain, not necessary Prius level but somewhere closer to Prius then current HS.
GS sales are really bad at least relative to the E-class and 5-series. Is it realistic to see a GS F or GS C? Could Lexus assume if they build these models that buyers will come?
I'm all for a more diversified Lexus line-up but my sentiments are like Och, please expand, but expand carefully. I would maintain that the HS was rushed out. The HS should of had a more efficient powerplant/powertrain, not necessary Prius level but somewhere closer to Prius then current HS.
03-24-10, 08:28 PM
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I expect and hope Lexus will add the following in the future:
- A GS-F (very likely)
- AWD on more models (don't know how likely this is, but it SHOULD be done)
- A true IS coupe, an IS-F coupe, along with an IS wagon for Europe (should be likely)
- A true GS coupe, and possible GS-F coupe (somewhat likely)
- A new SC coupe
To fully utilize the halo of the LFA, Lexus needs not only more F cars, they need more F coupes. Having GS-F, IS-F, and maybe SC-F coupes would do wonders for image and utilizing the LFA's halo.
IMHO both an IS-F and GS-F coupe are greatly needed in the F lineup.
- A GS-F (very likely)
- AWD on more models (don't know how likely this is, but it SHOULD be done)
- A true IS coupe, an IS-F coupe, along with an IS wagon for Europe (should be likely)
- A true GS coupe, and possible GS-F coupe (somewhat likely)
- A new SC coupe
To fully utilize the halo of the LFA, Lexus needs not only more F cars, they need more F coupes. Having GS-F, IS-F, and maybe SC-F coupes would do wonders for image and utilizing the LFA's halo.
IMHO both an IS-F and GS-F coupe are greatly needed in the F lineup.
