joe80

There are many 'unoriginal' cars out there other than hyundai/kia. and no i didn't come here to argue. I've presented the legit argument about pricing of LS/S. $30k is $30k. i'm just stating the facts. and I am also tired of people saying Hyundai is 'Chinese knock off like' or 'near Chinese' like you think it is, So I presented my case. I wouldn't have argued about this issue 5-6 years ago. but I firmly believe Hyundai/kia's design capability now. borrowing and ripping off are two different thing. Guess which brands made most noise in any of recent autoshows? Hyundai/kia. why? because of the styling. basically, I do not think Hyundai/Kia is anywhere near Chinese level. Honda borrowed tails from audi, Mazda's big grill isn't original, Buick has some Lexus in them. I see some 'borrowed design' from Nissan. previous Lexus LS's did borrow design cues as well. I can go on and on.

I genuinely believe Hyundai/Kia is now a mainstream design leader. fluidid sculpture made plenty of noises and recent Kia's are great. and i'm not the only one who is making all the noise about the hyundai/kia's recent design trend. you would know because you follow automotive news.


Who said Hyundai is near M/B/L? no one is saying that. Gap is still there. but it's not as wide as people think it is. and when compared to top of the line luxury cars Hyundai lacks the interior plastic quality. exterior design is debatable, so i'm not gonna go there. Hyundai is much much cheaper, but it actually holds its own especially new Equus. most of you will be surprised whenever M/T or car and driver tests Equus against the best flagship in the world. it's already been tested many times in Korea. It's almost there.

And I don't believe Avalon can hang with Genesis. and Genesis Coupe has nothing to do with Avalon. Avalon truly is an old man's car. It's my 2nd least favorite Toyota. Updated Azera is almost as good as Avalon. Avalon is better, but Azera has the edge on styling(updated one), interior design, and price. Genesis destroys Avalon in every possible way. Genesis isn't perfect, but so is Avalon. Even people on this board are down on Avalon.

and no i don't believe Hyundai has long way to go. I would give them 5-6 years.

because we are adults, and we like to debate? No cussing or name calling here. this thread shouldn't be closed.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Joe, you're completely missing my point. The Genesis is most certainly superior to the Avalon (at least on paper) but the fact that neither Genesis or Azera, or even both of them combined can outsell the dated Avalon. People that are willing to shell out a few extra thousand for a car thats a bit plushier than your average pedestrian family sedan are not willing to spend their money on a Hyundai. There are many reasons for that, we've discussed them numerous times.

Like I said, Hyundai is doing well for themselves, and they are creating a lot of buzz. Look, even I finally learned how to spell Hyundai properly (probably has to do with spell check integrated into the newest Opera web-browser ). I'm sure they will be doing even better in 5-6 years, but they will never be on the L/M/B level unless they out-innovate them. This Equis is a nice try, but I will boldly predict Q45 fate for it.

joe80

I see. well Avalon is Toyota. Genesis is a tough sell. i command hyundai for trying, but you gotta give hyundai 5-6 years, so people can completely forget about hyundai being a value brand.

Azera has completely flopped thanks to getting sandwiched by sonata and genesis. but hopefully sonata not having v6 and new redesigned Azera(probably as a 2012 model) will pick up a sale. but Azera really was a flop. there is no reason to pay 3-4 grand more for azera when you can just buy a sonata v6(last gen). sonata was almost as big and ride wasn't too far from azera.

Och

iTrader: (3)

We'll see what happens in the next 5-6 years. Hyundai is doing great for themselves now, and I saw the new Sonata on the street, and it does look excellent. I however fully expect the competition to get very fierce, as everyone besides Chrysler and Honda/Acura are making excellent cars.

YEH

Since when did Hyundai ever clone a model (unlike the Chinese who have cloned the Santa Fe and Elantra)?

Heck, Lexus did more of a clone job w/ the LS430.

Och

iTrader: (3)

This is pathetic.

YEH

The Azera was a flop compared to the Avalon (granted, Hyundai did absolutely zero marketing for the Azera, but even if they had, likely wouldn't have helped much) - the new Azera can't get here fast enough.

The Genesis sedan, otoh, is doing pretty well compared to the GS and Infiniti M (even against the new M's 1st monthly nos.); not many people wanting a soft-riding FWD sedan will want a RWD sedan w/ a significantly stiffer suspension.

YEH

Not as pathetic as a lot of your outrageous claims in the past...

And there's no denying that the LS430 was a clone of the S-Class of the time (head-designer of Mercedes, Harald Leschke, actually went as far as to make some comments, which is rare in the automotive world).

Och

iTrader: (3)

We've been over this many times, haven't we? Most of your posts on this forum are kissing up to Hyundai and crapping on Lexus. Bringing this nonsense to yet another thread is just gonna result in mods closing it. Thanks a lot.

LexFather

I think this might be out first locked sales thread in 6 years. Thanks to the Hyundai/Kia fans for trying to shove Kia/Hyundai down everyones throat while trying to take apart Lexus on a Lexus forum and not talking about sales in our sales thread.

Utterly ridiculous and not worth any moderators time to clean up.