joe80

spoken like it's 2005.

and so how did Sonata beat Mazda6 and accord in edmunds comparison and beat Legacy and accord again in the new car and driver comparison? both publications state that the sonata is now the benchmark. yes, they said the word, 'bench mark'!

http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/so...ison-test.html

Overall, the 2011 Hyundai Sonata is a remarkable achievement. Not just because it does so well in a few ways what the Accord has done for so many years, but also because it delivers excellence in so many categories. The 2011 Hyundai Sonata is the new benchmark among mainstream large sedans. There, we said it.


for car and driver's Legacy vs. Accord(C/D's reigning king) vs. Sonatano links yet, just came out on the news stand)
Third place, the Legacy, with 199 points. Second place, the Accord, with 205. first place? the Sonata, with 211.

keep in mind, Accord is Car and Driver's perennial favorite. Sonata lost points on rear seat comfort(lack of head room), but it was most fuel efficient, quietest, and fastest.

please drive one. you will become a believer like i'm. sure you won't feel a thing when you drive Accent, Elantra, Azera and so on, but their new offerings are different. drastically improved with more engaging road manner.

joe80

what about Toyota? does Toyota has soul? I think Genesis Coupe has plenty of soul for what it is. So does Sonata, much more soulful than Camry ever will be.

Hyundai was nothing but a souless APPLIANCES. i'll admit that. hyundai was poorman's toyota. but just look at what they are doing right now. 274hp turbo? aggressive styling? it's a clear indication that Hyundai doesn't want to be boring. suspension does need some work, but just read about sonata SE, forte Koup, genesis coupe, and etc. Hyundai started to make better handling cars.

and i'm not even sure if any of you test drove the Sonata. if you guys ever did, you would know it is great friggin car for the money. I'll take the new sonata over camry or accord anytime anyday.



anyway, S is significantly more $ than LS.

1. S-Class - 1,242
2. LS - 894
3. 7-Series - 733
4. Panamera - 542
5. A8/S8 - 63
6. XJ - N/A

S class would almost outsell LS 2 to 1 if LS was as expensive as the S.

encore888

The flagship market has been in flux ever since the economic crisis. Currently, the LS leads the S class in sales, as it traditionally has, but by a tighter margin than usual. The LS 460 L pricing has been about the same as the A8 and 7.

-J-P-L-

Keep in mind though that the nearly 5 year old Camry came out on top in the latest Car and Driver over Sonata. They even declared that they hated to admit it but Camry was simply the best car which doesn't even take into account that it will also last the longest.

The 2011 Sonata is no doubt a great car. I'm a big fan of Hyundai but they don't yet hold the bench mark exclusively. They may come close or even share it in some cases but they are not yet segment leaders.

So even though the current Camry beat a 5 year newer Sonata, an all new Camry is right around the corner, and that will actually be a "fairer" comparison to the new Sonata. I'm willing to bet the Sonata will pail in comparison.

LexFather

Speculation. Have you seen the lease rates?

Please stop being so argumentative and understand this is not a Hyunadi forum not everyone is going to be head over heels over the brand.

joe80

Yes and No. price is closer to A8, but 7 is much more expensive. 7 is about 20k more expensive than LS when comparably equipped. and even A8 is about 10k more than LS.

Equus-50k-60k
M56 - 57k-69k
550i(f10)- 60k - 90k
E550 - 56k-85k
LS460 - 65k - 82k
S550i(non AMG) -91k-120k

basically price wise LS460 is closer to E550 and new 550i than S class or 7 series.


Numbers don't lie to me. LS is still almost 30k cheaper than the comparable S. that's a lot of $$





No that's Motor Trend. in Car and Driver they didn't even include Camry. Accord is their favorite, usually.

anyway, last gen Sonata did beat Camry in their last M/T midsize comparison. Passat was #1, sonata was #2 and camry was #3.

again, I've test driven the sonata. have you? I know all about camry. My sister has one. Camry doesn't come close to sonata IMO. Sonata beats camry in everything except the rear seat comfort. i honestly thought Altima is better than Camry. must more engaging on the road.

But camry does have very nice V6. probably top 3 midsize sedan if you strictly go by v6. but 4banger? average at best.

-J-P-L-

Motor Trend, my bad. Doesn't change my point though.

I have yet to drive the new Sonata, but I'm sure it's impressive.

I've driven the last Gen Sonata thousands of miles (we had them as loaners at the dealer I work at) and they were good cars as well, but IMO, not nearly as good as the Camry. And the last gen Sonata, generation wise, is a fairer comparison to the 5 year old Camry.

-J-P-L-

It's possible but that doesn't mean the LS isn't comparable or as good as the S-Class. IMO, the LS460 is easily the better car. People paying $90K for the S-Class are getting ripped off IMO when compared to LS.

S-Class buyers more often than not are buying the badge. The 3 pointed star is half the prestige battle.

joe80

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/results.html

last gen sonata(refreshed) vs. camry is very close but sonata is a winner. sonata has better i4 IMO. camry wins the v6 battle.

for me last gen sonata is better than camry because it had a better interior(refreshed one), better fuel economy, roomier, cheaper, and has better warranty. i consider both appliances with no SOUL, but sonata was the better appliance of the two. M/T agrees with me. anyway at least they are being consistent. they put family first in their comparison(except passat) rather than performance number. so most likely last gen sonata would've beaten the new 2011 sonata if they included last gen sonata in this year's comparison. but that's kinda ridiculous because new sonata owns last gen. new sonata is miles better than the last one in every aspect except the rear head room discomfort for tall passengers.



anyway,

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/au...ef=automobiles
-latest gen coupe article

if you ever get a chance to test drive a genesis v6 track, it most likely will forever change your perception of hyundai. i had much more fun in genesis coupe then any current toyotas or hondas i can think of. Genesis Coupe to me is the best drivers car under 28k.



people pay 90k-150k for S because they want to feel like a king. that's what luxury is all about.

joe80

when compared to Camry


IMO,
2011 sonata i4 > 2010 sonata i4 > 2010 Camry i4

but M/T disagrees. they like last gen sonata and camry better than the new one. but all other publication prefers 2011 sonata.

encore888

I'm talking about ACTUAL prices paid, not the MSRPs. There's data about it, the LS 460 L prices paid, with the packages available, have been comparable to the 7 and A8, particularly due to the heavy incentives being lavished, within about +/- $2,000. Similarly when the LS 430 UL was on sale, but now the 460 L has closed the gap in large part. But some people out there continue to believe that some 460 owners "can't afford" the European competition. Moreover, when looking at advertised packaging and what one actually gets, it's debatable what the price premiums really get.

Exactly, the lease rates and incentives are really working for the Germans.

joe80

incentives or not, S550 starts at 91k. i've seen fully loaded ones go for 120k! yes, people are shallow.

basically S is a class above LS in terms of pricing. but i like what Lexus is doing. they aren't overpricing their cars like MB.

TRDFantasy

Whether you want to believe it or not, the fact is that yes, the German full-size luxury sedans DO have a larger gap between "out the door" prices and MSRP prices than compared to the LS. It is a fact that there are much more incentives and discounts on the German sedans than compared to the LS.

Also, just for clarification, the LS (non-hybrid) reaches a price of 88K, which is virtually 90K. That is a fully loaded LS460L AWD model.

The hybrid LS also cannot be forgotten. The LS hybrid starts at 108K, and maxes out at roughly 128K for a fully loaded LS600hL.

So in actuality, the LS MSRP ranges anywhere from 65K all the way to 128K.

joe80

why are you including LS600hl? i didn't include S600 or S65AMG.

then S class is priced from 91k to over 220k if you include S65AMG.

i'm pretty certain people pay at least 20k more for S than LS. that's being generous. there are plenty of people who paid over 100k for s550 in MB forum.

huge huge difference if you ask me.

un4given

The LS460 doesn\\\'t really compete all that well with the 7 Series, A8 or S class, I commented on this in another post you made and I do agree with you. The automotive press have noticed this by landing last place finishes for LS in most comparos.

I remember the 2006 MT issue that compared the LSh to the S550, Jag and Maseratti, MT take on the LS was that it \\\"overpromises and underdelievers on performance, prestige and even luxury\\\" This is the biggest problem with the LS, it doesn\\\'t push the super sedan luxury envelope.