LexFather

You do realize base $65k LS 460s are hard to find. Most are in the 75-95k range based on options.

This new folly against the LS is just to stir the pot. You don't like it when people say the Genesis is not in the GS class based on being 10-20k cheaper but now you are trying to jab the LS?

Please just stop.

Welll everyone else disagrees with you and Joe. The LS 600h L was picked by Top Geat as best executive car and won World Car of the Year.

It competes very well with its intended competition.

Didn't push the envelope? It is the WORLDS FIRST AWD V-8 HYBRID luxury sedan how is that not "pushing the envelope" It has worlds first LED headlights and 11 other world firsts. How is that not "pushing the envelope" especially when the Germans are offering hybrids

To top it is the ONLY Japanese flagship from Japan. Acura fails in the category below the LS and Infiniti discontinued the Q45. Meanwhile the LS went from one engine/bodystyle to
SWB
LWB
AWD
Sport
Hybrid

All in this model. Not sure how anyone can really "diss" the LS.

joe80

No, I'm pretty used to hearing Genesis competing against Avalon, but not GS. not a big deal to me. and it actually competes more against loaded Avalon than GS.

I never said LS doesn't compete against S, 7, or A8. 20k difference really isn't a big deal for people who can afford anything over 70k-80k. that's like me spending 5k more to buy a 30k car instead of my budget of 25k.

I just stated the fact, that's all. people pay about $20k-$25k more for S than LS. no one can deny that. that's a fact. doesn't matter if LS is better than S or not. i think LS is better than S in many areas. but as far as prestige goes, numbers don't lie. In many countries, S is actually $35-$45k more than LS.

I consider Genesis better than RL, but RL is 10k more. Genesis is better than MKS, but people pay 5-6k more for MKS. that's just how it is.

LexBob2

Lately Car Chat looks like it's on Club Hyundai vs. Club Lexus.

LexFather

We might rename this place

un4given

When I say pushing the envelope I am talking about design and prestige. There is no doubt that the S-Class and 7-series appeal to a group of buyers that are looking for something a little higher in class than the LS. The LS kind of reminds me of how the Genesis offers something different than the GS but of a lot less. You have to look at the LS in whole instead of just its parts. Yes, the LS has some worlds firsts but when you add up all of its parts, the whole are is not as great. The design is just not on par with BMW/Merc and Audi...Lexus will fix this with the next redesign. The only Lexus LS that does reach Merc/Audi/BMW levels of prestige is the LS600h but as MT said, it "overpromises and underdelievers" on performance, prestige and even luxury Yes the LS (non hybrid) does compete well but when a maxed out LS is still less than the entry level price of the S-Class or 7 Series you have some problems...the problem is mostly in design. I can't imagine a LS (a non hybrid) starting a $90k....that would be something that everyone would be LOL at.

LexFather

The LS 460/600 makes any past LS look quite staid. It is the first Japanese sedan to sell for 100k here. It is seen as best in class by many and the essence of refinement and luxury. So it has raised its prestige. It will likely NEVER gain the prestige of the Germans, which if fine.

Design is subjective. Seems that breakthrough 7 didn't work since the new model looks like a LS and the old model looks very "old" now. The S class has some wheel arches, an old 7 series interior and trunk. The A8 looks like an A4/A6 and the new model looks just like the old one with some weird headlights. So all can be said about the 4. Now with that said I think the current LS looks great, the current S-class looks macho, the current 7 looks good and the past A8 was a wonderful looking car.

You want true style you need the Jag XJ, Maserati Quattoporte or the Porsche Panamera.

Can we talk about sales here now, thanks.

TRDFantasy

Who compares the LS hybrid to the AMG S-Class? There is no LS model that competes with the S-Class AMG. At best, the LS hybrid competes with the S600, and that's as far as it goes.

That's a short-sighted thing to say IMHO.

Have you actually driven or sat inside a fully loaded LS600hL ? It pushes the "super sedan luxury envelope" quite well.

With that said, it's incorrect to label or expect the LS to be a "super luxury sedan".

The A8, S, and 7 Series, no matter what variants you talk about, are not super luxury sedans.

A super luxury sedan is a Maybach, a Bentley, or a Rolls Royce Phantom.

Also who cares about magazine comparisons? Out in the real world, quite a few presidents, high-ranking government officials, and people with high income own an LS hybrid.

It definitely seems like it doesn't it .

Once again, your comments don't make any sense.

Your entire opinion is based on what MT said in a comparison?

Funny, I remember years ago when the 4LS first debuted, people were criticizing the price increase, and saying nobody would ever pay over 80K for an LS. The joke was on them as they were wrong.

Even further, when the LSh debuted, people said there was no way anyone would pay over 100K for an LS, no matter how good it was. Internet enthusiasts claimed everyone would LOL at a 100K+ LS. Guess what, the joke was on them.

Even if the LS started at 90K, there would definitely be something that people would LOL at, and that would be internet enthusiasts being wrong again.

Your comments are very ironic, given that you own an LX470. The current LX570 starts at 77K, and nobody except short-sighted internet enthusiasts are laughing at that.

Very shortly, once all the buyers and allocations are finalized, Lexus will prove that people are willing to pay close to 400K for a Lexus with the LFA. Once again, the joke will be on the critics, and LFA owners and Lexus supporters will be the ones doing the laughing.

Getting back on topic, sales of the LS continue to do well against the S-Class, 7, and A8 all of which have heavy discounts, and sell often for a lot less than MSRP.

joe80

alrighty then~ S goes up to 160k. are you happy now?


but then, if S600 was a hybrid, i'm pretty sure it will be like 180k at least. MB knows how to overprice things. S65AMG costs more than flying spur! more than a friggin Bentley!

Och

iTrader: (3)

If you're going to compare S class price to LS price, then you have to compare it to the LWB LS, as the S class only comes in LWB (at least in the US). And then the price between these two cars becomes negligible.

If MB was to make a SWB S class that was price like SWB LS, could it sell better than the LS? Possibly.

As far as current S class sales, a lot of them are sold to fleet. Come to NYC, and most of the S classes around are sporting T&LC license plates (taxi and limo). There are a few LWB LS limo's as well, but they are much less common than S class, and 7 series limos are non-existent, I've only seen one.

As far as the overpriced S class models with 12 cylinder engines, Lexus really doesn't compete with those yet. And considering the fact that they depreciate like bricks, it probably doesn't make much sense for Lexus to ever start competing with them.

YEH

In that case, the GS is no more sports oriented than the soft-riding FWD ES - since most auto reviewers have compared the handling of the Genesis as being similar to the GS and the previous-gen E Class, but not as sporty as the M35/45 and, of course, the 5 Series.

Besides, there's a reason why most auto reviewers compared the Genesis to the GS (or other E segment class vehicle) and not the ES.

There you go again w/ the price-thing.

The LS400 had an original MSRP of $36k - that was less than the E segment E Class and 5 Series of that time (and significantly less than the E Class and 5 Series variants w/ the most powerful motors).

The original LS was probably closer in price to the top of the line C Class and 3 Series than the top of the line E Class and 5 Series (much less the S Class or 7 Series).

As for the G37 and CTS - they are competitors in the luxury D segment (altho, Cadillac is moving the CTS to the E segment class), albeit being a bit larger since they needed the "value" play in order to compete better.

And what's the point about the IS outselling the Genesis?

It's a smaller D segment vehicle - and despite being less expensive than the 3 Series, the 3 still outsells it by a quite a margin (see how that works?).

Besides, Hyundai is working on a 3 Series/IS competitor to be built off a shortened Genesis platform (according to you, it should be compared against a fully loaded Camry - since that's where the pricing probably will be).

How 'bout actually refuting arguments rather than using a red herring argument (sorry, that I wasn't timely in my responses)?


As already stated, it was Motor Trend and basically, many found the rationale behind MT's decision to be puzzling to say the least.

As for the Camry being 5 yr old model, the previous gen Sonata has beaten the Camry in a no. of comparisons - and a no. of auto publications (such as Edmunds) really despise the Camry.

Lexus took a no. of BMW styling cues w/ the LS460 (albeit toned down) - and when BMW went the same route (too much so - the new 7 is a total snooze) - what you get is both F segment cruisers looking similar (esp. from the side and rear).

TRDFantasy

Right, just like how auto reviewers compared the Veracruz to the RX?

Who cares what auto reviewers compare. Out in the real world, the GS and Genesis sedan are not cross-shopped. There is no evidence to suggest this, and the claims of you and other Hyundai supporters have little credibility until you show hard evidence that significant cross-shopping is going on between the GS and Genesis sedan.

LexFather

Preaching the Kia/Hyundai gospel just isn't in vogue... FYI I am an avid supporter of what they have done, even looking past the COMPLETE POS Scoupe Turbo I had.



Please stop posting that is utter garbage. The GS is far sportier than the ES and with F-sport parts or APPS it handles quite well. Stock yes the 5 and M35/45 sport handles better.

The GS outhandles any Hyundai ever created outside the new Gen coupe.


STOP BRINGING UP THE LS. The LS is one of the greatest cars ever made, a legendary automotive point in history. No Hyundai is close, stop using it as an example.
D class is the LS, S-class, 7 series....They are both entry level cars. The CTS has done a better job offering a V-8 in trying to move up as well as a better interior.
[QUOTE=YEH;5401158]
And what's the point about the IS outselling the Genesis?


If there is no point why refute? Just to argue?

Its clear you are here to argue and push Hyundai/Kia down everyone's throat without taking into consideration what they said. To make matters worse you are way off with statements about other brands.




Everyone copies everyone. Hyundai takes this to near Chinese car levels. It is what it is.

encore888

There still is a price difference, but it's a valid point that the LWB comparison is the most comparable. With the price range fluctuations (ironically S400 is cheapest vs. LS 600h L most expensive) there is significant overlap.

Ummm...the C-Class didn't exist when the LS 400 was introduced. It was introduced in 1993. If you're referring to the 'baby Benz' 190E, it was famous as the "below $30K" Benz, beginning in mid $20Ks; $30Ks with options. It had fewer variants than the 3-series, which also had models in the $20Ks but was typically in the $30K range. However, the LS 400's MSRP jumped to $45K in 2 years and went past $50K by 1993, a 40%+ increase that was well into E and 5 series territory. In fact, the 7-series began in the $50K range in the corresponding period, so the original LS 400 was competing with the 7-series in pricing as well, not to mention other flagship rival models, save Mercedes-Benz' longtime premiums.

It does however sound like one is attempting to use the tagline saying "7-series at 3-series price" to rewrite history; what the LS 400 and Q45 did was more of 7-series at 5-series price to begin with.

Gojirra99

That's because car prices in those countries can be up to double the U.S. price for the exact same car (mostly due to MUCH higher import taxes). If prices of cars are that much higher, the price DIFFERENCE between cars would be proportionally much higher too !!

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

just anecdotally, as far as newer vehicles goes, my town appears to be getting dominated by hyundai/kia - it's amazing.