Possible 2010 Subaru Legacy/Outback Issues.
03-28-10, 03:44 PM
#1
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Possible 2010 Subaru Legacy/Outback Issues.
As many of you know, the Subaru Legacy-Outback lineup is my favorite overall vehicle platform, hands-down. I talk a lot about other vehicles as well, and their good points.....BMW steering/chassis, Audi trim/fit/finish and sheet metal, VW/Audi 2.0T/DSG, Mercedes/Volvo safety features, Honda build/assembly precision, Ford's new-found quality, Lexus quietness/smoothness/refinement, Toyota-Lexus mirror-like paint jobs, Hyundai/Kia quality/value, etc..... But, for daily driving, especially in bad weather, I still like the Legacy/Outback platform best of all (and, to an extent, the smaller Outback Sport).
But, despite my enthusiasm for these cars, I have to be honest and put my earlier general recommendation for purchasing one on hold. In fact, I had considered a new one myself, this year, but I think I may now hold off until at least next year (2011). The new 2010 Legacy-Outback models are having some issues with steering-wheel-shimmy and tracking-stability, which (apparantly) are not completely solved with traditional wheel alignment/spin-balance/tire-truing (rounding) methods. This has become a known factory issue on some of the 2010 Legacy-Outback Outbacks, and Subaru engineers have devised a couple of "fixes" that have involved installing a couple of heavier-duty parts in the steering systems. From the reposts of owners, these factory fixes have only a limited or temporary effect. Some Subaru technicians feel the real problem may also be in the complex engine cradle-mount system on the new models, done to try and filter out even more of the Subaru boxer engine's traditional noise/vibration. That, of course, if the case, may require a substantial front-end redesign. So, for now, my advice would be to hold off until this issue is cleared up once and for all. I myself have a 2006 Outback which has been dead-reliable since Day One....more so, as a matter of fact, than the Lexus IS300 I owned previously (that's how I joined CL). I think, for now, I'm going to put new Michelin tires and some new fluids in it this summer and just keep driving it until this issue with the new ones is cleared up.
I won't go into all the differences betwen the 3Gen and 4 Gen Legacy/Outback here.....I've already done that in other threads and reviews. But I felt a need to bring this issue up in public, because I know some of you, like me, are Subie fans. I just hope this doesn't mean that Toyota, being Subaru's new part-owner, is starting to let some its own quality lapses filter down into the Subaru line. The Legacy/Outback line, in the American market, now shares an assembly plant with Toyota Camrys at Lafayette, IN. (my Outback was built at Lafayette before Toyota came in). But, as indicated earlier, it seems to be more of a design rather than an assembly issue.
I have to be honest and say that, on my several test-drives of new 2010 Legacy/Outback products, with brand-new cars right out of the showroom, I did not notice anything out of the ordinary with either steering-shimmy or tracking, except that the cars did seem to be a little more isolated from the road, noise and refinement-wise, than their predecessors. So, apparantly, in many cases, this is something that develops shortly after purchase (or break-in), but not necessarily when brand-new. Some owners, though, reported it almost immediately....one at only 3 miles.
This is fairly unusual for the Subaru line. Except for well-known head-gasket issues on the non-turbo, N/A 2.5 boxer engines in the late 90s up to about 2002, and some rear-wheel-bearing issues on older Outbacks and Foresters, Subarus, in general, have been quite reliable. In 2004, they were Consumer Reports' highest-rated overall brand for reliability, with Honda and Lexus tied for second.
So far, this does not seem to be a safety-related issue or anything really dangerous, like with some of the Toyota throttle/brake problems. In most cases, it just seems to be the kind of nuisance, PITA kind of deal like the small but annoying shimmies you have to put up with when you have a slightly out-of-round wheel or tire, a wheel-balance machine that has not been calibrated properly (many shops don't check them often enough), or careless tire-mount people working in the shops. Only this time, the cause of it may go a little deeper than that. Small shimmies may add a slight extra load (and wear) to the suspension/shocks, steering gear, and wheel bearings, but generally don't cause any real damage.
I'm including a good Subaru site where there has been extensive forum discussion of this issue, for reference.
http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/...threadid=20843
http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/...threadid=23063
But, despite my enthusiasm for these cars, I have to be honest and put my earlier general recommendation for purchasing one on hold. In fact, I had considered a new one myself, this year, but I think I may now hold off until at least next year (2011). The new 2010 Legacy-Outback models are having some issues with steering-wheel-shimmy and tracking-stability, which (apparantly) are not completely solved with traditional wheel alignment/spin-balance/tire-truing (rounding) methods. This has become a known factory issue on some of the 2010 Legacy-Outback Outbacks, and Subaru engineers have devised a couple of "fixes" that have involved installing a couple of heavier-duty parts in the steering systems. From the reposts of owners, these factory fixes have only a limited or temporary effect. Some Subaru technicians feel the real problem may also be in the complex engine cradle-mount system on the new models, done to try and filter out even more of the Subaru boxer engine's traditional noise/vibration. That, of course, if the case, may require a substantial front-end redesign. So, for now, my advice would be to hold off until this issue is cleared up once and for all. I myself have a 2006 Outback which has been dead-reliable since Day One....more so, as a matter of fact, than the Lexus IS300 I owned previously (that's how I joined CL). I think, for now, I'm going to put new Michelin tires and some new fluids in it this summer and just keep driving it until this issue with the new ones is cleared up.
I won't go into all the differences betwen the 3Gen and 4 Gen Legacy/Outback here.....I've already done that in other threads and reviews. But I felt a need to bring this issue up in public, because I know some of you, like me, are Subie fans. I just hope this doesn't mean that Toyota, being Subaru's new part-owner, is starting to let some its own quality lapses filter down into the Subaru line. The Legacy/Outback line, in the American market, now shares an assembly plant with Toyota Camrys at Lafayette, IN. (my Outback was built at Lafayette before Toyota came in). But, as indicated earlier, it seems to be more of a design rather than an assembly issue.
I have to be honest and say that, on my several test-drives of new 2010 Legacy/Outback products, with brand-new cars right out of the showroom, I did not notice anything out of the ordinary with either steering-shimmy or tracking, except that the cars did seem to be a little more isolated from the road, noise and refinement-wise, than their predecessors. So, apparantly, in many cases, this is something that develops shortly after purchase (or break-in), but not necessarily when brand-new. Some owners, though, reported it almost immediately....one at only 3 miles.
This is fairly unusual for the Subaru line. Except for well-known head-gasket issues on the non-turbo, N/A 2.5 boxer engines in the late 90s up to about 2002, and some rear-wheel-bearing issues on older Outbacks and Foresters, Subarus, in general, have been quite reliable. In 2004, they were Consumer Reports' highest-rated overall brand for reliability, with Honda and Lexus tied for second.
So far, this does not seem to be a safety-related issue or anything really dangerous, like with some of the Toyota throttle/brake problems. In most cases, it just seems to be the kind of nuisance, PITA kind of deal like the small but annoying shimmies you have to put up with when you have a slightly out-of-round wheel or tire, a wheel-balance machine that has not been calibrated properly (many shops don't check them often enough), or careless tire-mount people working in the shops. Only this time, the cause of it may go a little deeper than that. Small shimmies may add a slight extra load (and wear) to the suspension/shocks, steering gear, and wheel bearings, but generally don't cause any real damage.
I'm including a good Subaru site where there has been extensive forum discussion of this issue, for reference.
http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/...threadid=20843
http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/...threadid=23063
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-28-10 at 06:38 PM.
03-29-10, 08:37 PM
#7
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
There's a few Subie fans on CL; not a huge number. I happen to be one of them.
I also felt it necessary to bring this matter up as a caution for those who may have been thinking of a 2010. Subarus are usually reliable, but have occasional problems just like any other automaker.
The 3.6L Subaru Boxer H6 is also smooth; noticebly more than the H4, but, of course, doesn't have the Porsche sound to it.
And, I can remember back in the 1980's, when Subie boxer engines sounded and felt like meat-grinders. You could hear them coming a half-mile away. The average farm tractor engine showed more refinement. Subaru worked for years to refine their H4's.
The standard Subaru N/A, non-turbo 2.5L H4 is fine for the Impreza/Outback Sport, and still OK with the Forester, but is a little sluggish with the heavier Legacy/Outback platform. The new CVT, of course, helps the H4 with the new 2010 model, and gives it stronger response than with the old 4-speed automatic, but that tranny is new and unproven. It (supposedly), however, comes from the same supplier as the Nissan units that have been in use for awhile, and has nice paddle-shifts for the pre-determined gear ranges.
Both the Subie H4 and H6 engines are ideal for AWD because of their light weight, low center of gravity, and the fact that the output shafts come straight out the back of the engine, without the need for the direction-transfering bevel gears with AWD transverse-engine layouts. It allows an easy-to-produce, symmetrical AWD layout. That's why Subie has stuck with them for all these years. It also, of course, helps Porsche with its AWD layouts, too, being of the same flat-boxer design.
I also felt it necessary to bring this matter up as a caution for those who may have been thinking of a 2010. Subarus are usually reliable, but have occasional problems just like any other automaker.
That's cool, the only boxer configuration engines I like are Porsche 6's, very smooth with an addictive sound quality
And, I can remember back in the 1980's, when Subie boxer engines sounded and felt like meat-grinders. You could hear them coming a half-mile away. The average farm tractor engine showed more refinement. Subaru worked for years to refine their H4's.
I have never liked most 4 cylinder engines, especially these.
Both the Subie H4 and H6 engines are ideal for AWD because of their light weight, low center of gravity, and the fact that the output shafts come straight out the back of the engine, without the need for the direction-transfering bevel gears with AWD transverse-engine layouts. It allows an easy-to-produce, symmetrical AWD layout. That's why Subie has stuck with them for all these years. It also, of course, helps Porsche with its AWD layouts, too, being of the same flat-boxer design.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-29-10 at 08:52 PM.
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03-30-10, 09:22 AM
#9
Lexus Fanatic
The 3.6L Subaru Boxer H6 is also smooth; noticebly more than the H4, but, of course, doesn't have the Porsche sound to it.
And, I can remember back in the 1980's, when Subie boxer engines sounded and felt like meat-grinders. You could hear them coming a half-mile away. The average farm tractor engine showed more refinement. Subaru worked for years to refine their H4's.
The standard Subaru N/A, non-turbo 2.5L H4 is fine for the Impreza/Outback Sport, and still OK with the Forester, but is a little sluggish with the heavier Legacy/Outback platform. The new CVT, of course, helps the H4 with the new 2010 model, and gives it stronger response than with the old 4-speed automatic, but that tranny is new and unproven. It (supposedly), however, comes from the same supplier as the Nissan units that have been in use for awhile, and has nice paddle-shifts for the pre-determined gear ranges.
.
And, I can remember back in the 1980's, when Subie boxer engines sounded and felt like meat-grinders. You could hear them coming a half-mile away. The average farm tractor engine showed more refinement. Subaru worked for years to refine their H4's.
The standard Subaru N/A, non-turbo 2.5L H4 is fine for the Impreza/Outback Sport, and still OK with the Forester, but is a little sluggish with the heavier Legacy/Outback platform. The new CVT, of course, helps the H4 with the new 2010 model, and gives it stronger response than with the old 4-speed automatic, but that tranny is new and unproven. It (supposedly), however, comes from the same supplier as the Nissan units that have been in use for awhile, and has nice paddle-shifts for the pre-determined gear ranges.
.
03-30-10, 03:13 PM
#10
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My EJ25 doesn't "groan" in excess of 3000 RPMs. I rather enjoy the strong side and would consider it thunderous in comparison to some of the other 4 cylinders that I have heard. I have noticed that the newer 4 cylinders from Ford and Toyota emit a rather gritty sounding rasp.
03-30-10, 03:21 PM
#11
Lexus Fanatic
"Groaning/thunderous", super, lol.
But agreed some of the non-balance shaft Ford and Toyota 4-bangers don't sound pleasant at higher revs under load. Everybody produces a 4 banger that idles quietly these days but how the engine behaves when accelerating hard is another story and low-powered engines often have to be pushed into upper rev ranges.
But agreed some of the non-balance shaft Ford and Toyota 4-bangers don't sound pleasant at higher revs under load. Everybody produces a 4 banger that idles quietly these days but how the engine behaves when accelerating hard is another story and low-powered engines often have to be pushed into upper rev ranges.
03-30-10, 03:22 PM
#12
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
My EJ25 doesn't "groan" in excess of 3000 RPMs. I rather enjoy the strong side and would consider it thunderous in comparison to some of the other 4 cylinders that I have heard. I have noticed that the newer 4 cylinders from Ford and Toyota emit a rather gritty sounding rasp.
03-30-10, 03:32 PM
#13
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Back on the original topic, I hope Subaru gets this issue resolved with the new Outback. It is still #1 on my potential shopping list. Unusual, too........Subaru had a good record getting first-year products right, except maybe with the first-year Tribeca's grille. 
03-30-10, 03:35 PM
#14
Lexus Fanatic
03-30-10, 03:38 PM
#15
Lexus Fanatic
That's why it's so important for brand owners to give feedback, a common occurrence on CL since they are closer to source on longterm basis.I'm curious about the outcome and root cause.
Last edited by IS-SV; 03-30-10 at 03:43 PM. Reason: edited out the ugly nose picture, lol