Renault-Nissan and Daimler announce alliance (next Z to be Benz powered?)
07-21-10, 07:47 AM
#31
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A diesel-powered Nissan Z sounds interesting. Diesel sports cars are quite popular in Europe. The French in particular offer a lot of them. VW has the GTD, the diesel version of the GTI and that car has gotten good reviews.
07-21-10, 08:21 AM
#33
I really don't believe any of this and won't until I have a spec sheet or official announcement in front of me.
Nissan uses the FM platform for almost everything (Z, G, M, FX) and the VQ in even more models (Altima, Maxima, Pathfinder, Murano, Z, G, M, FX), so it's not like they are suffering from manufacturing inefficiencies. The company doesn't have a problem with economies of scale...they do that pretty well.
FWIW, the VQ is far superior to any Mercedes V6 that I have ever driven, but if Nissan is too cash-strapped or unwilling to update it, which it desperately needs, then it is sad to see them turning to Mercedes as a quick fix. I think they can create a better V6 than Mercedes can, and I am pretty confident in that.
The only logical result of this relationship that I can see is deisel engines, but I am surprised that they cannot source those from Renault.
On the flip side, I have to wonder what Nissan/Renault can offer Diamler-Benz to make this "partnership" worth while. Hybrid technology? I just don't see Mercedes handing Nissan/Infiniti the keys to the factory and saying, "Here, go pick whatever engines you would like!"
Nissan uses the FM platform for almost everything (Z, G, M, FX) and the VQ in even more models (Altima, Maxima, Pathfinder, Murano, Z, G, M, FX), so it's not like they are suffering from manufacturing inefficiencies. The company doesn't have a problem with economies of scale...they do that pretty well.
FWIW, the VQ is far superior to any Mercedes V6 that I have ever driven, but if Nissan is too cash-strapped or unwilling to update it, which it desperately needs, then it is sad to see them turning to Mercedes as a quick fix. I think they can create a better V6 than Mercedes can, and I am pretty confident in that.
The only logical result of this relationship that I can see is deisel engines, but I am surprised that they cannot source those from Renault.
On the flip side, I have to wonder what Nissan/Renault can offer Diamler-Benz to make this "partnership" worth while. Hybrid technology? I just don't see Mercedes handing Nissan/Infiniti the keys to the factory and saying, "Here, go pick whatever engines you would like!"
07-21-10, 12:34 PM
#34
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FWIW, the VQ is far superior to any Mercedes V6 that I have ever driven, but if Nissan is too cash-strapped or unwilling to update it, which it desperately needs, then it is sad to see them turning to Mercedes as a quick fix. I think they can create a better V6 than Mercedes can, and I am pretty confident in that.
My sister back home is actually shopping for a new car and tried a used Infiniti G37 a few weeks ago. In her email to me, she remarked that the engine was pretty rough at higher revolutions, her only major criticism of the vehicle. This appears to be a common criticism of the VQ, at least the current VQ.
It's amusing to see the Infiniti fanboys (on Infiniti forums) praise this engine while at the same time claiming they "wouldn't touch anything that came from Renault".
All it takes is a little research. And in my experience, Renault makes great motors. I tested a 2009 Renault Laguna dCi sedan a few months back and was impressed with the smoothness of this base engine. Yes, it was a diesel.
07-21-10, 02:08 PM
#36
This could be mutually beneficial in many ways really. This can teach Infiniti about "luxury" a point them seem to get close to but never quite hit and it can possible teach MB about reliability (specifically the electronics); that's not to say MBs aren't reliable and Infinitis never break.
I also think that this does not necessarily have to cause Nissan/Infiniti to stray from this so-called aspirations to be the "Japanese BMW." They could perhaps just incorporate the things MB does well that they currently don't without losing sight of where they want to go.
While Nissan will likely not get access to all of the MB engines (AMGs) they will definitely have more options and be able to offer more options and hopefully even more models. If some how they can get access to AMG engines then maybe that will make concepts such as the Essence more of realistic possibility.
I also think that this does not necessarily have to cause Nissan/Infiniti to stray from this so-called aspirations to be the "Japanese BMW." They could perhaps just incorporate the things MB does well that they currently don't without losing sight of where they want to go.
While Nissan will likely not get access to all of the MB engines (AMGs) they will definitely have more options and be able to offer more options and hopefully even more models. If some how they can get access to AMG engines then maybe that will make concepts such as the Essence more of realistic possibility.
07-21-10, 02:12 PM
#37
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The VQ has probably reached its engineering end from what I gather. The next step would be for Nissan to engineer a new one at this point in time.
My sister back home is actually shopping for a new car and tried a used Infiniti G37 a few weeks ago. In her email to me, she remarked that the engine was pretty rough at higher revolutions, her only major criticism of the vehicle. This appears to be a common criticism of the VQ, at least the current VQ.
Infiniti already "has" a diesel M in Europe - it's on the way. It uses a Renault V6 diesel which will also end up in the FX and EX. There's a test of it in the latest Auto Motor und Sport. I can try scanning it but I will need to do it at the office tomorrow.
It's amusing to see the Infiniti fanboys (on Infiniti forums) praise this engine while at the same time claiming they "wouldn't touch anything that came from Renault".
All it takes is a little research. And in my experience, Renault makes great motors. I tested a 2009 Renault Laguna dCi sedan a few months back and was impressed with the smoothness of this base engine. Yes, it was a diesel.
My sister back home is actually shopping for a new car and tried a used Infiniti G37 a few weeks ago. In her email to me, she remarked that the engine was pretty rough at higher revolutions, her only major criticism of the vehicle. This appears to be a common criticism of the VQ, at least the current VQ.
Infiniti already "has" a diesel M in Europe - it's on the way. It uses a Renault V6 diesel which will also end up in the FX and EX. There's a test of it in the latest Auto Motor und Sport. I can try scanning it but I will need to do it at the office tomorrow.
It's amusing to see the Infiniti fanboys (on Infiniti forums) praise this engine while at the same time claiming they "wouldn't touch anything that came from Renault".
All it takes is a little research. And in my experience, Renault makes great motors. I tested a 2009 Renault Laguna dCi sedan a few months back and was impressed with the smoothness of this base engine. Yes, it was a diesel.
I'm all for sharing and I understand these companies got to save money but I want my Benz to be an AMG made in German and my Lexus using Japanese tech and parts.
Not to mention that Renault engine they got isn't class leading in anything.
07-21-10, 02:41 PM
#38
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The new 3.7 L VQ motor has had many many complaints for being raspy and ruff. When you wind the car up to close to red line there is a lot of vibrations making its way into the shifter. My G35 had that issue a little but the new Vq is worse. The 3.5L V6 in my Gs feels as smooth as a BMW in line 6
07-21-10, 03:00 PM
#39
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I agree that the VQ has reach it's evolutionary peak. But other engines are more modern and refined. It's amazing that it is still competitive after all these years. The fact is, the bar is higher as everyone has a refined 6 now... even Hyundai.
I think they should work on their next generation 6 and not get it from an outside source. Diesels, I can see and the Renault seemed like a logical choice but apparently this deal with MB is the way they're going. They just have to have a good diesel. We'll see how much of this proves true.
I think they should work on their next generation 6 and not get it from an outside source. Diesels, I can see and the Renault seemed like a logical choice but apparently this deal with MB is the way they're going. They just have to have a good diesel. We'll see how much of this proves true.
07-21-10, 03:02 PM
#40
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I agree that the VQ has reach it's evolutionary peak. But other engines are more modern and refined. It's amazing that it is still competitive after all these years. The fact is, the bar is higher as everyone has a refined 6 now... even Hyundai.
I think they should work on their next generation 6 and not get it from an outside source. Diesels, I can see and the Renault seemed like a logical choice but apparently this deal with MB is the way they're going. They just have to have a good diesel. We'll see how much of this proves true.
I think they should work on their next generation 6 and not get it from an outside source. Diesels, I can see and the Renault seemed like a logical choice but apparently this deal with MB is the way they're going. They just have to have a good diesel. We'll see how much of this proves true.
The VQ is one of the best engines we've seen.
Not sure why they want to not build their own when its a HUGE selling point.
07-21-10, 03:11 PM
#41
Out of Warranty
I'm interested in what this cooperative might mean to bringing a few Renault products to the US market (perhaps under another badge). Although early imports like the Dauphine were pretty ill-suited to US roads - at least as compared to the VW Beetle, they were quite a bit better than the earliest Honda/Toyota products.
Renault Dauphine, ca. 1956
By the mid-60's they had evolved into a pretty nice little car - the R8 - an example of which I navigated in several Texas rallies, and was seriously impressed. Except that with cheap gas and broad stretches of Interstate, "nice little cars" weren't selling. VW had become a cult car, but by then even its fortunes were on the wane. Bad market timing combined with a weak dealer network caused le Société Renault Frères to withdraw from our shores after several abortive relationships with Nash, AMC, Jeep, and Chrysler by the 1980's.
Renault went on to a series of F1 Championships, and sales success in Europe, its core market. The Espace set the standard for minivans in Europe, and popularized the "American" platform worldwide with flowing lines, if quirky styling.
The goregous Laguna presaged the look of the current generation of flowing sedans and coupes, currently offered by Mercedes - except with the requisite "quirky" package. Smooth and powerful (for a mid-market European), it would appear to be an excellent fit to the American market . . . someday.
At the other end of the market, the Twingo might find a niche in North America. Like all Renaults, it boasts a comfortable interior and soft, if well-managed suspension. It's no Porsche, but in a market dominated by $14K 40mpg econoboxes, the Twingo might provide some welcome relief. All it, or any of the Renault offerings need is a competent sales and service network - something very difficult to find these days, but maybe with the domestics leaving many dealers high and dry, there might be a marriage here.
Renault Dauphine, ca. 1956
By the mid-60's they had evolved into a pretty nice little car - the R8 - an example of which I navigated in several Texas rallies, and was seriously impressed. Except that with cheap gas and broad stretches of Interstate, "nice little cars" weren't selling. VW had become a cult car, but by then even its fortunes were on the wane. Bad market timing combined with a weak dealer network caused le Société Renault Frères to withdraw from our shores after several abortive relationships with Nash, AMC, Jeep, and Chrysler by the 1980's.
Renault went on to a series of F1 Championships, and sales success in Europe, its core market. The Espace set the standard for minivans in Europe, and popularized the "American" platform worldwide with flowing lines, if quirky styling.
The goregous Laguna presaged the look of the current generation of flowing sedans and coupes, currently offered by Mercedes - except with the requisite "quirky" package. Smooth and powerful (for a mid-market European), it would appear to be an excellent fit to the American market . . . someday.
At the other end of the market, the Twingo might find a niche in North America. Like all Renaults, it boasts a comfortable interior and soft, if well-managed suspension. It's no Porsche, but in a market dominated by $14K 40mpg econoboxes, the Twingo might provide some welcome relief. All it, or any of the Renault offerings need is a competent sales and service network - something very difficult to find these days, but maybe with the domestics leaving many dealers high and dry, there might be a marriage here.
Last edited by Lil4X; 07-21-10 at 03:17 PM.
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