Och

iTrader: (3)

Nobody is arguing that 306hp isn't enough, but seeing how MB is THE forerunner in the current horsepower wars, I simply suspect that this rating is a publication mistake. The current NA 3.5 liter in the base Mercedes models is behind Infiniti/Lexus/BMW's competing engines, and if MB replaces the 3.5 NA with 3.5 turbo, I'm willing to bet they are going to up the competition by a good margin. I expect at least 350hp for the US version.




Well, there are magazine articles and then theres the real world. Turbo charging allows European customers to get cars with great performance without getting robbed by ridiculous displacement tax (or whatever the correct term is for that nonsense). It also allows manufacturers to optimize their cars to score higher in various consumption rating (in the US its EPA, not sure what they use in Europe). But in the real world driving, once you start pushing these engines to get intended performance, their MPG suffer. I just snapped two pictures, one from BMW 335 the other from BMW 745. One is a 4.4 NA V8, the other is 3.0 TT i6. The V8 is more powerful, installed in much heavier, bigger, less air-dynamic cars, yet it still yields better fuel consumption.






As far as emissions, turbos most certainly hurt emissions. One way manufacturers reduce emissions on turbo charged cars is by having them run ridiculously hot. Just search for overheating issues on BMW 335 - there was even a magazine comparison of 335 vs IS350 where the 335 overheated. I can tell you that the engine runs so hot that even on a cold rainy day you can see water steaming off the hood, and if you pop the hood and open windshield washer pipe, theres steam coming out of it, which means that washer fluid is almost boiling. What do you think that does to long term reliability.

TRDFantasy

If this was a Lexus, I would still be disappointed. Where is the elegance, where is the cohesive styling in the exterior?

Let's see, the front end has a very strong and square look for the most part, which I like. The sides look muscular and for the most part fit the front end. The rear end however fails compared to the rest of the car. The rear is not muscular, strong, or taut. It's oversized, with a HUGE rear overhang, and those tails with that melted look to them have no cohesive relation to any other styling elements on the car.

If the rear end had a smaller overhang, tighter more muscular styling, and tails with a stronger shape (matching the front) it would look MUCH better.

So if Mercedes deems it to be "adequate", then it must be so?

What does it take for you to say that Mercedes did not do a good job? You seemingly love everything coming out from Mercedes and BMW, regardless of how good or bad it is.

It's irrelevant if you think 306 HP is "enough" or that Mercedes deems it is enough. The competition is always advancing.

If Mercedes has adopted a "good enough" policy at the company, fact is they are going to lose market share and become less competitive as time goes on.

To say this engine will have amazing fuel economy or emissions, these are nothing but assumptions. I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, we can only discuss what we know and what we see, and right at this moment, this engine is disappointing.

If and when further details come out regarding the engine, then those can be discussing at that time.

joe80

Rendered speculation

joe80

anyway, that theo dude from Paul Tan(malaysian automotive website) has some sick skills. he did the optima coupe rendering and many other cars.

dunnojack

is this true?

i don't remember. too many guys moving around.

if it is true, no wonder.

DustinV

I've never viewed Mercedes as a leader in terms of horsepower. Never. With the exception of their AMG models, most standard Mercedes' had engines with sufficient horsepower output.

There's also the question of how much horsepower one really needs. With the focus shifting heavily to fuel economy I wouldn't see the point of increasing the horsepower output if it would affect fuel economy in a negative way.




"Intended performance"? So the E350 is a "performance car"? I don't think so. Most E class owners I know, back in the US and in Germany, bought their car first and foremost because it's safe, comfortable, a quality car and because it comes from a well-known brand (the badge). Performance, which by default is pretty good on the E350, isn't a major criteria. If it was, then they should upgrade to an E550 or E63 AMG or go to another brand. Someone who is considering an E350 will most likely value something else other than how much horsepower his engine under the hood is popping out.

Also, what good is an E350 with 350-horsepower? Seriously. What good would that be? Reaching 60 mph a full second quicker? Wow. That obviously really matters in a car designed for effortless cruising, not drag racing.

The main focus of the E class are driving comfort, not razor-sharp handling and sport. Even with 350-horsepower, hell, even with 400-horsepower the E class still isn't and will never be (unless MB change their philosophy, which doesn't seem likely considering they know what their customers want) a purist driving machine of the likes of a BMW 5 series or Infiniti M.

So I'll ask again. What good will the extra power do? 306-horsepower is completely adequate. I don't care if Mercedes release a more powerful version of this engine, because to me and for my personal needs (given my driving style) I would find such an engine to be complete overkill. 306-horsepower are fine and overpowered.


You're basing your opinions on turbochargers on that overheating issue with the 335i?

Over the decades there have been many cars with turbochargers and I've never heard of any serious overheating problems. It could be that this was a design flaw in the 335i, but not an inherent problem to every turbocharged car out there.

I'm not sure where you get your information from, but the articles I read indicate that turbocharging is a new trend in the automotive business because it allows more power and torque to be extracted from smaller displacement engines. It also increases engine efficiency and it most definitely helps reduce fuel consumption and CO2 emissions.

DustinV

Huh? If the Lexus GS had 306-horsepower in V6 form I would equally call it "adequate".


So let me get this straight. Because they stopped at 306-horsepower you think the engineers did a poor job?

Could the Mercedes' engineers have extracted more power? Without question, yes. Did they? No. Why? We don't know. We don't know any real details about this engine yet. Maybe it gets the best fuel economy and CO2 emission ratings with this precise horsepower output. We don't and have no way of knowing - yet.

Oh, and horsepower isn't everything. Outside of car forums most people shopping for a particular car, say the E350, will find the particular performance to be either adequate or exceeding their expectations. If horsepower was such a big consideration, then please explain to me why the sales of the E350 are high. You get a great car that just happens to have the weakest, but by no means underpowered, engine in its class. That tells you that there are other priorities for these people: the comfort of the E class, safety, the badge, design, the drive - there are countless reasons why people buy what they buy.

Let's be realistic for a moment: aside from the weakest engine in its class, there's nothing really to criticize about the E350. It's comfortable, it's safe and solid, it's a prestige car, it drives well, handles well and it's not slow (and the passing power is great). These are great attributes for a cruiser.

Personally, I don't buy cars based on how much horsepower I am getting for my money. To me and many others, there are other things that matter, not performance. An E350 would be too much for me. I drove an E230 E class here not to long ago with a 2.5 V6 and the performance completely exceeded my expectations. Dare I say such a car would be more than adequate for the driving style of most MB E class owners back home in the States.


A common accusation. I am used to it by now.

The truth is, people love to sometimes hate on these two brands. I think of myself as an objective car enthusiast with an admiration and respect for most brands out there. Plus, I live in Stuttgart. This is Mercedes and Porsche territory. I feel I can contribute to discussions centered around these brands because of this.



And? Perhaps a more powerful version of this engine will be released later on. In Europe Mercedes' has a number of models that use the same engine with different power settings. At this point we can only speculate.



Here's a little secret I've told you before.

Horsepower is not everything.

Do you honestly believe that people are going to abandon their E350's for a 380-hp V6 [competitor]? Those who care only about horsepower and performance may, but to most people (I stress MOST), the current performance and horsepower output of the E350 (and this new engine) are and will be adequate.

Also, Mercedes-Benz customers aren't really the sporty crowd. An E350 and 535i are two completely different cars. One is a luxury cruiser and the other is a luxury sports saloon. They're made for two completely different people. Someone who wants a sporty driving experience will never give the E350 a second glance, unless the drive of the E350 is sporty enough for their needs.

It's ironic that most people who complain about the "weak 268-hp E350" are the ones that would never buy a Mercedes in the first place. It's amusing to listen to die-hard BMW fans criticize the E350 and other cars in its class about the "lack of handling" etc. Seems to me that people often forget that some cars are designed and engineered for other purposes other than razor-sharp handling.




To you this engine is disappointing because of the horsepower output.

So what happens, for hell of it, just for the hell of it, if this same "weak and underpowered and obviously already outdated" engine delivers the best performance and fuel economy in class. Let's say the E350 receives this engine and it's a full 1.5 or even 2 seconds, for the hell of it, quicker than any other car in this class, which for the hell of it, have received newly updated motors with say 350-hp.

Will this motor still be "crap" in your book because of its "measly 306-horsepower"?

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

There are elements of this car that I like- namely the interior- but Mercedes design as a whole has become much too busy for me in recent years. I think Mercedes products have lost the restrained elegance they used to have, in favor of a more dramatic in-your-face approach.

Interesting that as BMW has become more bland, MB has become more bold .

Och

iTrader: (3)

Dustin, don't get me wrong. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, most E350 buyers will never use even 50% of the motors potential. But you are forgetting that we are in the midst of a horse power war, that ironically was sparked by the GS400, and ever since the two big Germans have been trying to outdo each other first with the big V8 versions of their cars, and AMG //M models, and now the battle came down the the pedestrian models as well. The current E350 is clearly behind the pack, and like I said, it doesn't matter if typical E350 buyer doesn't care about horse power, I fully expect Mercedes to up its competition by a good margin.

Look, even V6 Camry, Avalon, Altima have pretty much the same power as the current E350. And Hyundai just brought this horse power war down the the 4 cylinder models of pedestrian cars, with the new Sonata making 200hp from its naturally aspirated four cylinder motor. I expect Nissan to one-up them in the most near future, and the war will be on

rogers2

All this fussing about MB E350. Honestly who cares how much HP a E350 has anyway. If you want the big dog purchase the E550 or E63. A benz is about so much more. Trust me reliablity isn't one. ha ha

(Cj)

I completely agree. HP is nonissue for Mercedes, since they're still one of the top selling brands especially on the higher end side of luxury.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Thats exactly what GS350 has.

Right, except if it was GS350 with less hp than E350, everyone here would be complaining how its underpowered.

It doesn't matter whether horse power is an issue or not. Was horse power an issue for Avalon buyers?

Once again, I expect MB's 3.5L turbo V6 to outperform their competitors.

JVT

Just like that ugly Porsche Panamera, this will sell to people who are not car enthusiast but have the money to afford.

Great example, my friend who is not a car enthusiast but has a lot of money to burn bought his wife the AMG Minivan. I asked his wife, how do you like your AMG? She said, "what's an AMG?" LOL

tmf2004

iTrader: (15)

The CT-V wagon might have some competition.. Looks great for a Wagon

knihc2008

iTrader: (1)

Looking even better in person...

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/beiji...brake-concept/