Och

iTrader: (3)

This engine might very well turn out to be class leading. Acura, Lexus, Ford, and GM are able to get roughly the same output from their 3.5-3.7 V6 engines (and Nissan gets more maximum HP, but it lacks low end torque), but if this MB engine returns better fuel economy and improves on some noise issues associated with DI, it will indeed be class leading.

With that being said, I'm surprised MB didn't go the turbo route for the V6. I was almost sure they would follow the BMW route.

Mbenz528i

True, there are other defenitions to class leading, including driving feel, output, fuel efficiency, etc. I stand corrected in that regard.

I too am surpised that they didn't TT this motor, but I think they may be saving it for a surprise down the line or an update to this engine when/if it becomes necessay. Like someone said, it may show up in the sportier models, like the SLK or E coupe.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

That's my point. So what? 306hp from a 3.5L V6 isn't impressive in the 2011 model year because it has been done several times before.

Case closed.

If you really think that Mercedes, the leader of the horsepower war, left the 270hp V6 in the E350 because they were happy that it was adequate then I don't think you know Mercedes as well as you think you do. Mercedes has played "hide the weenie" with this engine for a while now. First it was supposed to be in the SLK, then the C, then the E...rumor after rumor. Now here we are, four years after the competition has 300hp V6s, and you're trying to tell me that you're still impressed and that it doesn't matter?

What? Four years after the class standard is 300hp, Mercedes still builds the least powerful car in its class, redesigns it, then finally decides to drop a competitive engine in the car. I don't know about you but to me that is called playing catch-up. You make it seem like BMW's TT I6 and Lexus V6 aren't economical, more efficient, and more powerful than the engines they replaced. Have you looked in the 3GS or 2IS forum lately? People are getting in the mid 20s combined and can do 32-34MPG on the highway. I'm still not sure how you are justifying this engine arriving four years late, much less calling it impressive.

Maybe I just expected too much from a company that has built it's name on engineering and "firsts", eh? I guess it's pathetic to expect a $60,000 Mercedes to offer more horsepower and greater efficiency than a 2007 Toyota Camry V6.

Och

iTrader: (3)

MP, I'm sorry but this is so wrong on so many levels.

First of all, let me say that the current E350 is more than adequate. Who cares if its no more powerful than a Camry, its a lot more driveable than the Camry, which is overpowered with its FWD layout. Keep in mind, there was a time when Lexus GS was overpowered by Avalon/Camry.

Now, with that being said, most E350 buyers simply don't care about the power, otherwise they would get the 430/460. I'll use the GS example once more, remember when GS was bumped up from 300 to 350? It's sales didn't increase, just kept falling and falling.

As far as whether the 306hp not being impressive for 2011, it makes no sense. It seems to be the standard output these days for a modern engine, and just because its been done before, it doesn't make the MB engine any less impressive. We'll have to wait until its officially released and experience it for ourselves to see whether it is or isn't impressive. If you're going to judge an engine by its maximum horse power output, then it would seem that Nissans 3.7 is the most impressive engine, but if you actually drive it, it feels sluggish before it reaches 4000rpms, and after 4000rpms it sounds like GM's OHV 3800 with a hole in the exhaust, and returns miserable fuel economy.

werewolf

I would be a skeptical buyer of a new turbocharged MB engine. After all the problems BMW owners have with the 335i engine, I would wait 2-3 years so they can work out the bugs.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I don't really think that we see eye to eye on this subject. I am not, at any point, saying that 270hp is not adequate or that it's not a good engine. My parents used to have an E320 and even that engine was perfectly adequate with 230 (i think?) hp and a 5AT. It revved, cruised, sounded, and drove beautifully, and I would actually say is one of my favorite engines of all the cars I have driven. My car has 230hp as well and it drives perfectly well and is more than adequate.

However, once you start plunking down $50,000 and $60,000 I don't think it's about being adequate any longer. The E has plenty of other great attributes that overshadow it's relative lack of power, and I doubt that 95% of buyers look at the window sticker, see 270hp, , and turn away. It really is perfectly adequate and enjoyable for what it is, but Lexus, BMW, and others produced superior engines a few years ago and left Mercedes in the dust. It's rather un-Mercedes like to let an engine linger when it does not have impressive power or consumption numbers, neither of which are a strong points here

Whether or not you want to admit it, there is a horsepower war here and Mercedes has played on every front except this one. 300hp was the standard four years ago...now the M37 has 330hp, BMW's newest TI6 has 325hp, and Lexus will probably do something with the GR too. At the end of the day, is 30hp really a deal breaker for most people? Obviously not considering that the E sells twice as many cars as anything else in it's class. Has Mercedes been oddly lazy and complacent about dropping in a more competitive engine? Yes.

I can't believe that we are arguing about adequacy in a thread that discusses 435hp TT V8s

Och

iTrader: (3)

To be honest, E350 probably wouldn't work well with an engine like the 335. It has a number of issue, and it isn't suitable for a large luxury sedan (although it seems to work for BMW's 5 series). If MB were to turbo charge their 3.5 I would imagine it would be a small turbine to compliment, not make the engine.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Ok, I'm glad you brought this up. My brother used to have a C320 and I used to have a GS300, I believe both had roughly the same power output, but the C320 felt a lot more powerful, at least at low RPMs.

Like I was saying before, maximum power output alone doesn't mean jack. Lets take some of the examples that you brought.

Infiniti - 330hp, but no low end torque, miserable fuel consumption, crude and unrefined.

Lexus - 305hp, but it sounds like a diesel until it warms up.

BMW - 300hp with turbo (but less displacement) but it idles like a 4 cylinder, horrendous fuel economy, reliability issues (especially long term), and inconsistent torque response.

Acura - 300hp that feels like 200hp (and acceleration times support that), miserable fuel economy.

I don't have much experience with Ford's and GM's newest V6 engines that produce similar power output, so I can't give any comments.

So yeah, if this engine from MB delivers 306hp with a nice torque curve, while being smooth, quiet, refined and reliable, and return a decent fuel economy, I'd be more than impressed.

DustinV

So, according to your logic, this new engine, because of it's 306-horsepower output, is not impressive?

What about the new technology and possibly impressive fuel economy this engine boasts/will deliver?

You're dismissing this engine solely based on power output. Power output isn't relevant to most people. If it were, then a 268-hp E350 wouldn't sell. To most people, the 268-hp E350 is a powerful car. To most people, the new E350 with this engine will be an even more powerful car. Nobody will really care if it doesn't produce class-leading horsepower figures. There are other merits to this new motor, which I am sure we will learn about soon once the press tests it.



Mercedes' was never the leader in the horsepower war when it came to their standard models. They were competitive in the performance segment where they are represented by AMG.

This new V6 should be impressive. Yes, you read that right. And I don't dismiss an engine based on horsepower output and the horsepower output its rivals put out a few years ago.

The development of these engines doesn't happen overnight. It takes years to design and test and engine and you can bet that Mercedes' did just that with this new V8 and V6. Could they have extracted more power from this V6? You bet. But they didn't. And there's a reason for that. I suspect (keyword SUSPECT) that this engine was designed with efficiency in mind first and foremost. 306-horsepower were deemed competitive and satisfactory enough. It's not like people are going to abandon a '350 Mercedes model just because it now comes with "only" 306-horsepower. In fact this might even lure more power-oriented customers who are happy that the Mercedes V6 now makes over 300-horsepower.



Where do I state that the BMW and Lexus engines in this class are "uneconomical" or "not impressive"? Both those engines are gems, marvels of engineering. But the focus of this argument are the old and the new Mercedes 3.5 V6's.

And maybe you should wait until this engine is actually tested before dismissing it some more. The fuel economy should be better, considering it is new and features a completely new design (60 degree V bank angles, not 90 etc.). Most people (most) get better mileage with most cars than the data that the EPA provides. Also, I don't really care much for the fuel economy figures that publications provide since we don't really know how they drove the car.



I don't see how a V6 Mercedes E class can offer better fuel economy than a V6 Camry since the E class will most likely be heavier than the Camry.

Maybe this new V6 will address the "problem".

Also, nobody cross-shops a Camry with an E class.

TwiBlueG35

All MPLexus301 said was the fact that M-B's new 3.5L V6 is simply making what Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Ford, GM has done for several years already or recently, and that is not impressive. Whether the old engine is adequate is not the point. To me the 2.5L V6 in Lexus IS250 is definitely adequate, but is it better than the 3.5L V6 in IS350? Probably not. Merely looking at peak horsepower is not enough to judge the competency of an engine, yet it is one yardstick every car buyer don't miss. In order to compete, you have to match your rivals, if not outstrip them. The old 3.5L engine from 2010 C350 is making 268hp, that is about what 2003 Infiniti G35 made. It is great news that M-B is finally offering this more than adequate engine in their 2011 vehicles, it is by no means flabberghasting. 306hp is good and probably the max a naturally aspirated engine with 3.5L displacement could attain nowadays, but not impressive anymore. M-B should have done it sooner, at least 2010 E-class should have gotten it.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, I do agree that they should've have had it sooner, but if I was in a market for a car of this class, I wouldn't care which one had the most HP first, but rather which one I like best.

Och

iTrader: (3)

That is very true. It does take a lot of engineering and time to properly design an engine. It doesn't take much to extract more power out of an existing engine. Throw in an aggressive cam, and you'll gain 30hp but lose refinement.

I'm glad you brought this up. Not all of these 300hp V6 engines are truly new. If you take Infiniti's, Acura, and BMW engines, they are mostly "overclocked" versions of older engines, and it shows. The Lexus engine is new, so is this upcoming MB engine, as well as Ford's and GM's engines.


I didn't know the old V6 engine was a 90 degree. The 60 degree layout is much better suited for a V6, and this new engine should be a lot more balanced and refined.

IS-SV

Horsepower wars at the high end continue, with improved fuel efficiency too.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

This just goes to show how impressive the torque number is on the 3.5 DI from the IS350. Can't wait to see the TT V8 applied to MBZ lineup

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

No, not because it has 306 horsepower, but because it has 306 horsepower four years after all of the competition did.

What about it? If Mercedes can come out with something that averages 28-30MPG and can get 35-40mpg on the highway then I will be impressed because it significantly bests it's competitors. If not, then this is simply another file and rank 3.5L V6 with 300something horsepower.

If you read my post to Och, I don't necessarily disagree with you.

Honestly...what about this engine is impressive to you?

Time will tell just how competitive this engine is or isn't, but the bottom line still stands that Mercedes lagged well behind the competition in developing a 300ish hp V6. Your comments about engine development are nearly universal and show that Mercedes engineers are either 1) poorly prepared for the upswing in power and efficiency in the midsize segment or 2) deficient because their development took several years longer than everyone else.

You're right, and its the competitive landscape that makes this engine unimpressive to me. I will say it again- BMW and Lexus created 300hp 6 cylinders that were more efficient than their predecessors 4 years ago. Because of that, I am not impressed with Mercedes' new engine at first glance

Until we see those numbers I remain unimpressed. Period. Reference my comment about mpg above.