Official: Mercedes' new 4.7L TTV8 and 3.5L V6
05-05-10, 10:22 PM
#46
bottom line, all other competitions (or marginally competitive ones) have v6 setup over 300hp, and mb just announced the setup that's coming into play "soon". yup, that's late
it's not about adequate or not. frankly, talk about adequate, 240hp is "enough" for most cars and most people in most occasions. but that's not the point about cars in this luxury segment, is it? i don't mind having low powered v6 (just look at the mighty 525), but at least you gotta have a v6 that can hold up against competitions
it's not about adequate or not. frankly, talk about adequate, 240hp is "enough" for most cars and most people in most occasions. but that's not the point about cars in this luxury segment, is it? i don't mind having low powered v6 (just look at the mighty 525), but at least you gotta have a v6 that can hold up against competitions
i say let's make it s555 or s567 
05-05-10, 11:56 PM
#51
I was looking at cars in that segment few months ago, the G37 coupe, 335i sedan, and A5 2.0T (for mod potentials). I liked how the C350 sport looks, but as soon as I see 268hp I instantly turned away. When it's 60+ hp less powerful than the G37 coupe and over 30hp less than the 335i, it screams "weak" and "outpowered".
Like many have mentioned, when you're late to the party and brings something that everyone else already brought, u're just catching up. When you achieve something that everyone else has done, it's not impressive it's just reaching the standard.
Like many have mentioned, when you're late to the party and brings something that everyone else already brought, u're just catching up. When you achieve something that everyone else has done, it's not impressive it's just reaching the standard.
05-06-10, 12:26 AM
#52
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Everyone thats complaining about MB taking too long to make this engine, keep in mind, MB is not that big of a company compared to Toyota, and they can't be working on all of their engines at the same time. They concentrated on many of their V8's and diesels, now they took care of the V6 front. Meanwhile Toyota was concentrating on the V6's and hybrids, hopefully with updated V8's coming out soon.
At least MB and Toyota are usually solid when it comes to engine engineering. They don't do overclocking like Infiniti and BMW, and don't overrate their engines on paper like Acura.
At least MB and Toyota are usually solid when it comes to engine engineering. They don't do overclocking like Infiniti and BMW, and don't overrate their engines on paper like Acura.
BMW is not as big of a company as Toyota, yet they've managed to always be at or near the front of the HP wars while providing competitive fuel economy.
Daimler is arguably a bigger company than BMW is.
Or how about Porsche? Arguably they are a smaller company than both BMW and Daimler, yet Porsche lately has made huge progress with their engines in power, fuel economy, and reliability.
Sorry, but it is what it is, and Benz is simply late to the party here. Especially if the fuel economy numbers of this new V6 do not impress, then there will be nothing noteworthy for this "new" Benz V6.
bottom line, all other competitions (or marginally competitive ones) have v6 setup over 300hp, and mb just announced the setup that's coming into play "soon". yup, that's late
it's not about adequate or not. frankly, talk about adequate, 240hp is "enough" for most cars and most people in most occasions. but that's not the point about cars in this luxury segment, is it? i don't mind having low powered v6 (just look at the mighty 525), but at least you gotta have a v6 that can hold up against competitions
it's not about adequate or not. frankly, talk about adequate, 240hp is "enough" for most cars and most people in most occasions. but that's not the point about cars in this luxury segment, is it? i don't mind having low powered v6 (just look at the mighty 525), but at least you gotta have a v6 that can hold up against competitions
First off, that's a far-fetched assumption, and secondly that's almost admitting to mediocrity.
Yes, this might be "adequate" for some luxury customers, but for others in the luxury market who still demand excess from their luxury vehicles, this is not going to cut it compared to the competition.
I totally agree that using the argument of "adequate", 200-240 HP is more than enough. Who needs more than that? All luxury vehicles should be powered by gas 4 cylinders and diesels making less than 200 HP
.
05-06-10, 12:36 AM
#53
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05-06-10, 12:42 AM
#54
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Holy cow! That's one powerful V8 motor. Lexus needs to come up with a powerful V8 for their flagship. 4.6 V8 won't cut it anymore for the next generation.
For people who are complaining about V6 making less power, you have to realize that demographic that MB is targeting. C class and entry level E class are target for mostly posers. I am sorry but that's what I feel. Nobody buys a C350 for the performance but the tri star badge. They could careless if the car has 20 snail power as long as it comes with the badge on the key fob. Most owners don't even know if the car is rear wheel drive or front wheel drive, or there's a unicorn running in the trunk.
For people who are complaining about V6 making less power, you have to realize that demographic that MB is targeting. C class and entry level E class are target for mostly posers. I am sorry but that's what I feel. Nobody buys a C350 for the performance but the tri star badge. They could careless if the car has 20 snail power as long as it comes with the badge on the key fob. Most owners don't even know if the car is rear wheel drive or front wheel drive, or there's a unicorn running in the trunk.
05-06-10, 04:25 AM
#56
What excuse does Daimler have for only releasing a 300+ HP 6 cylinder now, when BMW has had one for years, and now has a 6 cylinder conservatively rated at 320 HP, and much more torque than this 3.5L Benz engine?
BMW is not as big of a company as Toyota, yet they've managed to always be at or near the front of the HP wars while providing competitive fuel economy.
Daimler is arguably a bigger company than BMW is.
BMW is not as big of a company as Toyota, yet they've managed to always be at or near the front of the HP wars while providing competitive fuel economy.
Daimler is arguably a bigger company than BMW is.
As far as the competitive fuel economy of BMW's TT engine, I almost pissed my pants laughing.
Sorry, but it is what it is, and Benz is simply late to the party here. Especially if the fuel economy numbers of this new V6 do not impress, then there will be nothing noteworthy for this "new" Benz V6.
Exactly! I feel it's silly for people to call this Benz engine "adequate" for Benz customers.
First off, that's a far-fetched assumption, and secondly that's almost admitting to mediocrity.
Yes, this might be "adequate" for some luxury customers, but for others in the luxury market who still demand excess from their luxury vehicles, this is not going to cut it compared to the competition.
I totally agree that using the argument of "adequate", 200-240 HP is more than enough. Who needs more than that? All luxury vehicles should be powered by gas 4 cylinders and diesels making less than 200 HP.
Exactly! I feel it's silly for people to call this Benz engine "adequate" for Benz customers.
First off, that's a far-fetched assumption, and secondly that's almost admitting to mediocrity.
Yes, this might be "adequate" for some luxury customers, but for others in the luxury market who still demand excess from their luxury vehicles, this is not going to cut it compared to the competition.
I totally agree that using the argument of "adequate", 200-240 HP is more than enough. Who needs more than that? All luxury vehicles should be powered by gas 4 cylinders and diesels making less than 200 HP
.With all of that being said, the new engine is out, and most likely its going to be better than its competition when you look at all the qualities combined - power, smoothness, quietness, efficiency, reliability, and consistency.
05-06-10, 06:42 AM
#57
This is getting old. What excuse does Lexus have for not having a V8 thats on par with MB and BMW or even GM? Companies have different priorities where they put their resources.
As far as the competitive fuel economy of BMW's TT engine, I almost pissed my pants laughing.
Because while shopping for cars people only compare the HP levels? First of all, engine aside, the E class is arguably the best car in its class (and it should be, as it is the newest). Second of all, the current 3.5 may only be rated at 268hp, but it feels a lot more powerful than Acuras 300hp and torquer than Infinitis 330hp, and its a lot more smoother, linear and consistent than BMW's 300hp TT. I personally trust the "butt dyno" a lot more than manufacturers ratings, which are often over rated or under rated.
With all of that being said, the new engine is out, and most likely its going to be better than its competition when you look at all the qualities combined - power, smoothness, quietness, efficiency, reliability, and consistency.
As far as the competitive fuel economy of BMW's TT engine, I almost pissed my pants laughing.
Because while shopping for cars people only compare the HP levels? First of all, engine aside, the E class is arguably the best car in its class (and it should be, as it is the newest). Second of all, the current 3.5 may only be rated at 268hp, but it feels a lot more powerful than Acuras 300hp and torquer than Infinitis 330hp, and its a lot more smoother, linear and consistent than BMW's 300hp TT. I personally trust the "butt dyno" a lot more than manufacturers ratings, which are often over rated or under rated.
With all of that being said, the new engine is out, and most likely its going to be better than its competition when you look at all the qualities combined - power, smoothness, quietness, efficiency, reliability, and consistency.
As far as v6 power is concerned, Mercedes had supercharged V6's in their SLK AMG & C class AMG's pumping 350hp some years back. They could of easily create more output out of their motors if they so choosed. Mercedes is the creme of the crop when it comes to engines & everyone else takes a back seat.
05-06-10, 08:22 AM
#58
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Also you forgot this.
You are looking for an argument. No one is saying Benz is a bad company or they are not even a great company. We simply are talking about the late arrival of a 300hp V-6 which is true. Everyone is well aware they make terrific engines and their new V-8 units seem fantastic once again.
The C/E are Benz's bread and butter and their volume sellers, the IS/GS etc will never outsell them. NEVER.
Holy cow! That's one powerful V8 motor. Lexus needs to come up with a powerful V8 for their flagship. 4.6 V8 won't cut it anymore for the next generation.
For people who are complaining about V6 making less power, you have to realize that demographic that MB is targeting. C class and entry level E class are target for mostly posers. I am sorry but that's what I feel. Nobody buys a C350 for the performance but the tri star badge. They could careless if the car has 20 snail power as long as it comes with the badge on the key fob. Most owners don't even know if the car is rear wheel drive or front wheel drive, or there's a unicorn running in the trunk.
For people who are complaining about V6 making less power, you have to realize that demographic that MB is targeting. C class and entry level E class are target for mostly posers. I am sorry but that's what I feel. Nobody buys a C350 for the performance but the tri star badge. They could careless if the car has 20 snail power as long as it comes with the badge on the key fob. Most owners don't even know if the car is rear wheel drive or front wheel drive, or there's a unicorn running in the trunk.
That said I think this is another sad case of the German double standard. If Lexus or a Japanese company plays catch up, well its well documented. When the Germans are playing catch up every excuse in the book is made for them. I've seen the same thing happen with hybrids the Germans now are coming with and the recent Carbon Fiber article.
Last edited by LexFather; 05-06-10 at 08:27 AM.
05-06-10, 08:29 AM
#59
Because while shopping for cars people only compare the HP levels? First of all, engine aside, the E class is arguably the best car in its class (and it should be, as it is the newest). Second of all, the current 3.5 may only be rated at 268hp, but it feels a lot more powerful than Acuras 300hp and torquer than Infinitis 330hp, and its a lot more smoother, linear and consistent than BMW's 300hp TT. I personally trust the "butt dyno" a lot more than manufacturers ratings, which are often over rated or under rated.
With all of that being said, the new engine is out, and most likely its going to be better than its competition when you look at all the qualities combined - power, smoothness, quietness, efficiency, reliability, and consistency.
With all of that being said, the new engine is out, and most likely its going to be better than its competition when you look at all the qualities combined - power, smoothness, quietness, efficiency, reliability, and consistency.
I know we are splitting hairs at this point but the stuff about the "butt dyno" is really just crazy. Sound deadening, gearing, and the very nature of the engine itself can all make speed and acceleration very deceptive. For that reason, I don't really trust the "butt dyno" when it comes to performance numbers.
05-06-10, 08:45 AM
#60
What isn't made clear in the original article, but is outlined here in an Autocar article:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/249475/
is how much C02 (or should I say how little) the Mercedes V6 kicks out compared to say the Lexus IS350. Now this isn't that important in the US, but in Europe where car taxation is based on CO2 output the Mercedes V6 is a generation ahead of the Lexus V6.
The IS350 puts out 278g/km of CO2 compared to the Mercedes 177g/km. This makes a massive difference to the tax you pay on the car when you buy it, your annual road tax and, if you drive a company supplied car, the tax you pay as benefit in kind.
It would be cheaper to tax and run the Mercedes V6 over even the IS250 - that's why it's a leap forward over the other V6 engines. In fact Lexus don't even try to sell the IS350 in Europe because the emmissions are so far above the competition that the demand isn't there.
With this new V6 and V8 Mercedes are effectively putting large petrol engined cars back on the shopping lists for Europeans.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/249475/
is how much C02 (or should I say how little) the Mercedes V6 kicks out compared to say the Lexus IS350. Now this isn't that important in the US, but in Europe where car taxation is based on CO2 output the Mercedes V6 is a generation ahead of the Lexus V6.
The IS350 puts out 278g/km of CO2 compared to the Mercedes 177g/km. This makes a massive difference to the tax you pay on the car when you buy it, your annual road tax and, if you drive a company supplied car, the tax you pay as benefit in kind.
It would be cheaper to tax and run the Mercedes V6 over even the IS250 - that's why it's a leap forward over the other V6 engines. In fact Lexus don't even try to sell the IS350 in Europe because the emmissions are so far above the competition that the demand isn't there.
With this new V6 and V8 Mercedes are effectively putting large petrol engined cars back on the shopping lists for Europeans.
Last edited by Big Andy; 05-06-10 at 08:49 AM.