Jeremy Clarkson praises Lexus
05-31-10, 02:14 AM
#46
And again, to put that quote into context, here is what he said when he reviewed the GS430. When you read the full stuff, the interpretation of Japanese Mercedes is not as flattering as you make it sound
Mostly, though, I don’t like this car because it feels like a facsimile of the real thing. And that’s hardly surprising because that’s exactly what it is. A copy. A Mercedes clone.
Cars sit in the Japanese psyche along with spoons and mashed potato. They don’t come naturally. Oh sure, they can copy a Mercedes and use it to earn vast lumps of foreign currency, but how do you copy flair and panache and feel? The simple answer is: you can’t, so you end up with a completely soulless driving experience.
It’s a bit like those vegetarians who insist on eating hamburgers that are designed to look, feel and taste like the real thing. But they’re just not.
Technically, this new Lexus is probably better than a Mercedes, in the same way that a golden egg made by laser is going to be technically better than one of Karl Fabergé’s originals. But which one would you rather have?
Mostly, though, I don’t like this car because it feels like a facsimile of the real thing. And that’s hardly surprising because that’s exactly what it is. A copy. A Mercedes clone.
Cars sit in the Japanese psyche along with spoons and mashed potato. They don’t come naturally. Oh sure, they can copy a Mercedes and use it to earn vast lumps of foreign currency, but how do you copy flair and panache and feel? The simple answer is: you can’t, so you end up with a completely soulless driving experience.
It’s a bit like those vegetarians who insist on eating hamburgers that are designed to look, feel and taste like the real thing. But they’re just not.
Technically, this new Lexus is probably better than a Mercedes, in the same way that a golden egg made by laser is going to be technically better than one of Karl Fabergé’s originals. But which one would you rather have?
"It's the same but it doesn't have 'soul'" That's nice, now what does that exactly mean? Define soul as it pertains to driving experience.
That's just it, these are undefined abstract terms that don't actually translate to anything tangible. It sounds nice and "deep" but, paradoxically, his assessment ends up rather vacuous.
To me, citing that brand X has "soul" while comparable (in performance, value, gadgets, all the tangible things about a car) brand Y does not have "soul" - this is a meaningless criticism.
A car can accelerate from 0 to 60 in x seconds. It can get through a slalom run at y miles per hour. When driving, the steering wheel transfers z amount of useful "feedback" from the road that aids in high speed tweaking. The seats in a car on a rating of 1 to 10 are an "8" in terms of comfort while this other car is rated as a "7," relatively speaking. We don't have absolutely quantitative ways to describe all of these qualities, but at the end of the day, our assessment of driving experience is based on tangible things (usually quantitative or semi-quantitative, even if we don't have accurate measurements to determine which car is better).
Sure, sometimes we have to subjectively determine "well this car 'feels more planted' around the curves and 'inspires more confidence' than this other car" but at the end of the day, these are real, tangible qualities about a car that we are assessing.
Imagine the following thought experiment. You have a hamburger (let's call it burger A) - it's a real burger, derived from an actual cow.
Let's say we had the scientific means to individually assemble atoms in such a way as to create a copy of burger A, we'll call it burger B.
From an atomic standpoint, burger B is exactly the same as burger A.
However, going by the same poetic, metaphorical nonsense that Clarkson and many others use to tout BMW or Mercedes as the ultimate soulful driving machine, I have a funny feeling that he would say the same about burger A. He'd artificially and arbitrarily imbue additional value into Burger A by saying it's "more real" or "has more substance" or something equally nonsensical despite the fact that burger A and burger B are identical.
Now, in truth, Lexus vehicles are very obviously not identical to Mercedes vehicles. In some areas, many would agree that Lexus excels more while in other areas, many would agree that Mercedes excels more. The point is - I wish he'd focus on these tangible things more.
05-31-10, 08:08 AM
#47
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Clarkson doesn't like Lexus nor BMW nor Porsche. So when he does compliment them it is high praise from him.
05-31-10, 10:41 AM
#48
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Everyone is free to interpret it any way they wish. But I've watched him a lot and overall his Lexus reviews are nowhere near being a compliment.
Firstly, he is not pro European or anti Japanese or anti American. He simply wants a car to make sense overall. One great example of this on Top Gear was when they took a Toyota truck and tried to wreck it just to prove how durable it was. They did all sorts of things to it and it kept on going. You may be able to find it on youtube.
So essentially, there was a truck whose purpose it was to be dependable and it excelled at it. Since that was it's main purpose, there was no question that it was a great vehicle.
But when you get to luxury sports sedans that cost $50k, it's another story. So well done to the GS for being so quiet. And well done for the ergonomics and feeling of the switches. But a sports sedan that isn't sporty and doesn't have soul, means that overall it's a flop.
That isn't to say he won't trash a German car or a British car or not praise an American car or a Japanese car. He has done so very often. I think overall for him, Lexus doesn't excite him.
I didn't always agree with Clarkson but while appreciating many things about Lexus, I also do understand what he is saying. And he's driven many many many more cars than me, so lesson learnt, I'll probably listen to him more closely going forward.
Firstly, he is not pro European or anti Japanese or anti American. He simply wants a car to make sense overall. One great example of this on Top Gear was when they took a Toyota truck and tried to wreck it just to prove how durable it was. They did all sorts of things to it and it kept on going. You may be able to find it on youtube.
So essentially, there was a truck whose purpose it was to be dependable and it excelled at it. Since that was it's main purpose, there was no question that it was a great vehicle.
But when you get to luxury sports sedans that cost $50k, it's another story. So well done to the GS for being so quiet. And well done for the ergonomics and feeling of the switches. But a sports sedan that isn't sporty and doesn't have soul, means that overall it's a flop.
That isn't to say he won't trash a German car or a British car or not praise an American car or a Japanese car. He has done so very often. I think overall for him, Lexus doesn't excite him.
I didn't always agree with Clarkson but while appreciating many things about Lexus, I also do understand what he is saying. And he's driven many many many more cars than me, so lesson learnt, I'll probably listen to him more closely going forward.
05-31-10, 11:52 AM
#49
I do know he prefers British cars over German in general - Aston martin for example.
05-31-10, 12:29 PM
#50
Lexus Test Driver
I am rather certain the vast majority of Top Gear watchers will strongly disagree with you here. Clarkson has frequently exhibited a pro-British, anti-Japanese, and strongly anti-Lexus viewpoint.
Interesting. I may have mistaken the '91 for a '92, or may have simply remembered the post-haggling price rather than the sticker. I was probably around right for the '97 though.
05-31-10, 01:53 PM
#51
Lexus Fanatic
Well, for the most part, who doesn't? 
Opinions, of course, differ, but, in general, only the Acura ZDX manages to outdo the X6 in the "asinine" department. The late Pontiac Aztek, of course, once did in the looks department, but was actually a rather useful and versatile vehicle inside.
Opinions, of course, differ, but, in general, only the Acura ZDX manages to outdo the X6 in the "asinine" department. The late Pontiac Aztek, of course, once did in the looks department, but was actually a rather useful and versatile vehicle inside.
05-31-10, 03:34 PM
#52
Lexus Champion
Well, for the most part, who doesn't? Opinions, of course, differ, but, in general, only the Acura ZDX manages to outdo the X6 in the "asinine" department. The late Pontiac Aztek, of course, once did in the looks department, but was actually a rather useful and versatile vehicle inside.
Opinions, of course, differ, but, in general, only the Acura ZDX manages to outdo the X6 in the "asinine" department. The late Pontiac Aztek, of course, once did in the looks department, but was actually a rather useful and versatile vehicle inside.Best handling SUV that I've driven, especially the 5.0. You get no argument from me about the utility of it (lack of storage space, off road capability and poor rear sight lines), but Mike, if you liked how the 5GT drove, I think you would be shocked at how fun this vehicle is to drive.
The looks are, of course, subjective. Not my first pick, but definitely not an ugly vehicle in person.
05-31-10, 04:55 PM
#53
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05-31-10, 05:12 PM
#54
Lexus Fanatic
You guys have clearly never driven one.
Best handling SUV that I've driven, especially the 5.0. You get no argument from me about the utility of it (lack of storage space, off road capability and poor rear sight lines), but Mike, if you liked how the 5GT drove, I think you would be shocked at how fun this vehicle is to drive.
Best handling SUV that I've driven, especially the 5.0. You get no argument from me about the utility of it (lack of storage space, off road capability and poor rear sight lines), but Mike, if you liked how the 5GT drove, I think you would be shocked at how fun this vehicle is to drive.
Do you want me to do a partial or full-X6 review? They aren't exactly a dime a dozen in my area, but I think I can get my hands on one long enough to write it up.
I understand Jeremy Clarkson has reviewed an X6, but I don't remember reading it.
The looks are, of course, subjective. Not my first pick, but definitely not an ugly vehicle in person.
05-31-10, 05:30 PM
#55
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05-31-10, 05:58 PM
#56
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Well, Porsche is a different kind of "fun"....strictly sports cars, except for the Cayenne.....you could consider the Panamera a 4-door sports car. Lotuses are fine for the midgets who can fit into them (I remember what I went through, at 6' 2" and 270 lbs, trying to get into a new Elise and driving it...trust me, that was a laugh and a half 
). And the Jag XK, despite a luxury-sport image, is actually more of a coupe/convertible GT cruiser. But, for a precision driving feel and well-engineered chassis across a entire line of vehicles, especially from a major manufacturer, I don't think anyone does a better job than BMW....though some Audi and Mercedes models come close. BMWs didn't get the "Ultimate Driving Machine" moniker for nothing....they earned it. However, that doesn't mean that Bimmers are the cars for me....in general, they aren't reliable enough, and I find the I-Drive horrendous to use.
And, since the thread topic is Clarkson and Lexus, given the choice, I'd probably choose a new/used Lexus over a new/used BMW, though the AWD 335xi is a huge temptation.
). And the Jag XK, despite a luxury-sport image, is actually more of a coupe/convertible GT cruiser. But, for a precision driving feel and well-engineered chassis across a entire line of vehicles, especially from a major manufacturer, I don't think anyone does a better job than BMW....though some Audi and Mercedes models come close. BMWs didn't get the "Ultimate Driving Machine" moniker for nothing....they earned it. However, that doesn't mean that Bimmers are the cars for me....in general, they aren't reliable enough, and I find the I-Drive horrendous to use. And, since the thread topic is Clarkson and Lexus, given the choice, I'd probably choose a new/used Lexus over a new/used BMW, though the AWD 335xi is a huge temptation.
05-31-10, 06:04 PM
#57
Lexus Champion
05-31-10, 06:53 PM
#58
Lexus Fanatic
Well, Porsche is a different kind of "fun"....strictly sports cars, except for the Cayenne.....you could consider the Panamera a 4-door sports car. Lotuses are fine for the midgets who can fit into them (I remember what I went through, at 6' 2" and 270 lbs, trying to get into a new Elise and driving it...trust me, that was a laugh and a half ). And the Jag XK, despite a luxury-sport image, is actually more of a coupe/convertible GT cruiser. But, for a precision driving feel and well-engineered chassis across a entire line of vehicles, especially from a major manufacturer, I don't think anyone does a better job than BMW....though some Audi and Mercedes models come close. BMWs didn't get the "Ultimate Driving Machine" moniker for nothing....they earned it. However, that doesn't mean that Bimmers are the cars for me....in general, they aren't reliable enough, and I find the I-Drive horrendous to use.
And, since the thread topic is Clarkson and Lexus, given the choice, I'd probably choose a new/used Lexus over a new/used BMW, though the AWD 335xi is a huge temptation.
). And the Jag XK, despite a luxury-sport image, is actually more of a coupe/convertible GT cruiser. But, for a precision driving feel and well-engineered chassis across a entire line of vehicles, especially from a major manufacturer, I don't think anyone does a better job than BMW....though some Audi and Mercedes models come close. BMWs didn't get the "Ultimate Driving Machine" moniker for nothing....they earned it. However, that doesn't mean that Bimmers are the cars for me....in general, they aren't reliable enough, and I find the I-Drive horrendous to use. And, since the thread topic is Clarkson and Lexus, given the choice, I'd probably choose a new/used Lexus over a new/used BMW, though the AWD 335xi is a huge temptation.
Nice to know a good advertising slogan when you see one, just like Forbes:
Here are the top ten in the Forbes list announced in May 2010:
1.BMW – “The ultimate driving machine”
2.Nike – “Just do it”
3.American Express credit card – Don’t leave home without it”
4.Avis – “We try harder”
5.California Milk Processors Association – “Got milk?”
6.Master Card – “For everything else, there’s Master Card”
7.Apple – “Think different”
8.U.S. Marine Corps – “The few. The proud. The Marines.”
9.McDonald’s – “You deserve a break today.”
10.DeBeers – “Diamonds are forever”
Forbes said those were chosen by 10 chief marketing officers (CMOs) and advertising experts
btw, the new slogan is: "At BMW, we don't make cars. We make Joy.", wowieeee.
For those that have plenty of seat time in Porsches, they know they are far from pure sports cars anymore. They are fast, safe, capable, comfortable, smooth, refined, relatively heavy for size, sporting automobiles. Yes Porsches are mostly not multi-passenger family cars, but they are not a Lotus, not a Miata, not a S2000. Porsches just happen to have superior steering feel.
Last edited by IS-SV; 05-31-10 at 07:30 PM.
05-31-10, 07:24 PM
#59
Lexus Fanatic
Back on tooic for a change.
But congrats to Lexus for this bit of recognition by Clarkson, even if the rest of the premium car industry acknowledged it many years ago.
But congrats to Lexus for this bit of recognition by Clarkson, even if the rest of the premium car industry acknowledged it many years ago.
Last edited by IS-SV; 05-31-10 at 09:05 PM.
06-01-10, 06:37 AM
#60
Lexus Fanatic
Hyundai's "Driving is Believing", BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine", and Ford's "Have you Driven a Ford....Lately?" are example of those that will need more than a simple scoff or LOL to discredit, although Ford and Hyundai have since moved on to new ones.
And, while we're at it (and the thread topic) Lexus' "Relentless Pursuit of Perfection" once had a lot of truth to it, and still does to an extent.