Honda Boss: Next Insight Will Beat Prius MPG
06-07-10, 01:48 PM
#46
Lexus Fanatic
06-07-10, 01:51 PM
#47
Lexus Fanatic
Right, Oh. Obviously not hard enough to buckle it. I don't feel like paying for body repairs. 
But, in the spirit of the thread topic, maybe we've all argued enough about the car's solidness. Mileage, here, is the issue....the Prius wins by a long shot.
But, in the spirit of the thread topic, maybe we've all argued enough about the car's solidness. Mileage, here, is the issue....the Prius wins by a long shot.
06-07-10, 01:54 PM
#48
Lexus Fanatic
Maybe Honda could use this in their advertising, along with the advantages of dated engine designs and dated transmissions too.Best way to avoid body repairs is to avoid crashes.
Agreed in the spirit of the thread for a change, we could stick to the topic.
Mileage here isn't the whole issue, but agreed it's important. Prius wins on more attributes than mileage.
Last edited by IS-SV; 06-07-10 at 01:57 PM.
06-07-10, 02:13 PM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
Best way to avoid body repairs is to avoid crashes.
But enough of this.....this will be my last post on the sheet-metal issue.
Agreed in the spirit of the thread for a change, we could stick to the topic.
Mileage here isn't the whole issue, but agreed it's important. Prius wins on more attributes than mileage.
Mileage here isn't the whole issue, but agreed it's important. Prius wins on more attributes than mileage.
06-07-10, 02:20 PM
#50
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I think you misunderstood me. When you said it was a joke I was wondering if you meant their handling since you list like NSX S2000 Type R. But by all and all .. I think the Accord/Camry is a good competitor to each other same with Civic/Corrolla, Highland/pilot, crv/rav4,odyssey/sienna, fit/yaris .. odd ball for honda are element/ridgeline. The venza sure kill the crosstour and of course prius kill insight so ... but I don't think Honda is a joke .. they are like toyota in term that they produce cars that take you from point a to b without much soul in them ... also when I talk about Honda I would not include in acura since I look at them as separate division.
Also speaking in term of look for Honda here not Acura .. is definitely unimpressive, but beside the Venza I do think any Toyota as a looker either .. so they both about the same to me in term of look.
Also speaking in term of look for Honda here not Acura .. is definitely unimpressive, but beside the Venza I do think any Toyota as a looker either .. so they both about the same to me in term of look.
The new hybrid Insight, which is the main topic of this discussion is not as good as impressive as from last generation. Who is making all the decisions? Should have been fired long time ago.
Toyota was in a big doo doo last few months. It was their time to shine, and took over the market.
06-07-10, 02:21 PM
#51
Lexus Fanatic
Yes, also back seat room. But, as the thread title suggests, I don't think that the next Insight will be a repeat of this one. Honda designers have got to be noticing the difference in EPA figures (and sales) between the Insight and 3Gen Prius. Some of it, of course, is in the price difference between the two cars (Toyota obviously put more $$$$$$ into the drivetrain than Honda did). But, even with its somewhat higher price, the Prius is still handly outselling it. And, in the auto buisness, sales figures talk.
Yes, all noted in above posts in this thread. Honda is very much in a catch-up mode here and they have limited visibility into what Toyota is doing behind the scenes for future product development.
The sales numbers are pretty obvious, another example of being the cheapest isn't always the answer.
06-08-10, 01:04 AM
#52
Lexus Champion
What Honda needs is more VTAK...
But seriously, what Honda needs to do is a little soul searching - Acura will never be a Tier 1 luxury brand - the Integra was really what put them on the map as well as the NSX, and the Civic/Accord have strayed away from Honda's identity - fun, economical, nimble, reliable and big enough to live in but small enough to live with.
But seriously, what Honda needs to do is a little soul searching - Acura will never be a Tier 1 luxury brand - the Integra was really what put them on the map as well as the NSX, and the Civic/Accord have strayed away from Honda's identity - fun, economical, nimble, reliable and big enough to live in but small enough to live with.
06-08-10, 01:08 AM
#53
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Who cares if it does. The insight will never sell in the volume that the Pruis sells at. Even the plasticky interior of the Pruis does not slow down sales.
I saw an Insight the other day with a $5000 rebate notice on the windsheid.
I saw an Insight the other day with a $5000 rebate notice on the windsheid.
06-08-10, 01:28 AM
#54
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Honda Boss: next generation Honda's will sell well. The NSX is coming. Acura will be a Tier 1 luxury brand.
I think at this point the press releases do more harm than good. It'd be best if they just shut up and did what they say they intend to do. It seems like everytime they make an announcement about something, the opposite becomes true. Maybe if they applied reverse psychology and admitted the truth, then things would get better? It's ironic because doing just that probably would result in improvements.
Hey, I'm no Honda hater. . . Scion is sinking faster than a Guatemalan sink hole and Toyota is having serious problems too, but at least guys like Toyoda are willing to ADMIT it.
I think at this point the press releases do more harm than good. It'd be best if they just shut up and did what they say they intend to do. It seems like everytime they make an announcement about something, the opposite becomes true. Maybe if they applied reverse psychology and admitted the truth, then things would get better? It's ironic because doing just that probably would result in improvements.
Hey, I'm no Honda hater. . . Scion is sinking faster than a Guatemalan sink hole and Toyota is having serious problems too, but at least guys like Toyoda are willing to ADMIT it.
06-08-10, 04:12 AM
#55
Pole Position
Ito has admitted it, also. His quote; "Our company has become complacent".
The problem is, they don't know how they got there and that's a BIG problem. Honda is still a very successful car company but their losing focus with their customers. Soon enough, even the die hard Honda loyalists will be leaving, making Honda not so successful anymore. The 2012 Accord had better knock it out of the ball park or Honda will continue to suffer.
The problem is, they don't know how they got there and that's a BIG problem. Honda is still a very successful car company but their losing focus with their customers. Soon enough, even the die hard Honda loyalists will be leaving, making Honda not so successful anymore. The 2012 Accord had better knock it out of the ball park or Honda will continue to suffer.
06-08-10, 05:27 AM
#56
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What I am trying to say is, they made a wrong decision after another, starting from the decision to kill the prelude, replaced IT-R with RSX (which I actually owned), then no more S2000, and never replaced the NSX. Shall we talk about not having V8s in their line up? They came out with useless press release after another twice a day. And all the sudden, they decided to make their cars as ugly as possible. I love the last generation, and I think Type S TL is one of the best looking car in its class despite sending the power to the wrong wheels.
The new hybrid Insight, which is the main topic of this discussion is not as good as impressive as from last generation. Who is making all the decisions? Should have been fired long time ago.
Toyota was in a big doo doo last few months. It was their time to shine, and took over the market.
The new hybrid Insight, which is the main topic of this discussion is not as good as impressive as from last generation. Who is making all the decisions? Should have been fired long time ago.
Toyota was in a big doo doo last few months. It was their time to shine, and took over the market.
Yes I agreed with you that no honda fan is happy with the direction Acura is heading, but the Honda cars is doing ok. Beside the Insight and now Crosstour is and will be a sale flop, we kind of all knew that. Does Honda need a V8 .. no .. Acura needs it .. yes.
I do not see anything in Honda current line up that would increase sale with a V8.
Also I agreed that Honda really need a higher management shake-up. A crosstour .. come on ... why the hell they even introduct that. Also as for S2000 and prelude, both of which I love, are being cut due to low demand. I do not think any company would keep a car that are low in sale when they suppose to be a volumne saler. That is just unfortunately bad business practice.
06-08-10, 06:02 AM
#57
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Yeah. but look where the future is going. Acura would be better developing a V6 hybrid than a V8 right now. The RL isn't selling as it is, adding a V8 won't help that. Now if there were 550s and GS 460s being sold left and right then this might be a different story. But this isn't the case.
06-08-10, 06:30 AM
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The reason you build 550's and 460's is to sell more 325i's and ES350's. BMW builds great high end cars, but the majority of cars sold are 3 series... and Mercedes with their C class, and Lexus with their ES350. Heck, even the C and E classes are essentially like crown victorias, serving as taxi duting in Germany. But without the S class, Mercedes would never be taken seriously as a luxury make.
If Lexus never started with their LS400 in 1989, they would have NEVER done as well, nor would they have sold so many ES's. The ES is essentially a REALLY nice Camry. . .
Hyundai is dropping models like the Genesis and the Equus, and so far it's working well for sales of their low end models.
It's marketing.
Now, if they are going for a different segment, it's another story. There is the quasi-luxury market, ie Volvo, Saab, Volkswagen (to an extent) and (formerly) Audi. I say formerly because Audi has completely stepped up their game. They introduced the Audi V8 (model name), introduced in 1988, and it was later succeeded by the Audi A8 in 1994. Flagship cars such as this and even the new R8 are elements that are and have been elevating the brand to the luxury contender it is today. Sorry, but the markets are proving that there is just no market for 2 tier luxury cars such as Acura, Volvo, and Saab. Even among the domestics. . . lincoln, mercury, and chrysler cannot hold a candle to Cadillac. The Escalade pretty much has brought the name Cadillac (to the newer generation) up. The Catera nor the Deville nor Seville did it. The Escalade paved the way for the later success of the CTS.
Face it. Most people cannot afford a true luxury car and there isn't much money in making them. People want a nice'd up Camry, but they want the same badge on the hood as the 100k ultra sedan/sports car. And don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the ES; I love the model and would own one in a heart beat if I was in the market for it, but I've grown fond of two seaters, motorcycles, and hot hatches. . . chalk it up to my age. . .
If Lexus never started with their LS400 in 1989, they would have NEVER done as well, nor would they have sold so many ES's. The ES is essentially a REALLY nice Camry. . .
Hyundai is dropping models like the Genesis and the Equus, and so far it's working well for sales of their low end models.
It's marketing.
Now, if they are going for a different segment, it's another story. There is the quasi-luxury market, ie Volvo, Saab, Volkswagen (to an extent) and (formerly) Audi. I say formerly because Audi has completely stepped up their game. They introduced the Audi V8 (model name), introduced in 1988, and it was later succeeded by the Audi A8 in 1994. Flagship cars such as this and even the new R8 are elements that are and have been elevating the brand to the luxury contender it is today. Sorry, but the markets are proving that there is just no market for 2 tier luxury cars such as Acura, Volvo, and Saab. Even among the domestics. . . lincoln, mercury, and chrysler cannot hold a candle to Cadillac. The Escalade pretty much has brought the name Cadillac (to the newer generation) up. The Catera nor the Deville nor Seville did it. The Escalade paved the way for the later success of the CTS.
Face it. Most people cannot afford a true luxury car and there isn't much money in making them. People want a nice'd up Camry, but they want the same badge on the hood as the 100k ultra sedan/sports car. And don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the ES; I love the model and would own one in a heart beat if I was in the market for it, but I've grown fond of two seaters, motorcycles, and hot hatches. . . chalk it up to my age. . .
06-08-10, 07:03 AM
#59
The reason you build 550's and 460's is to sell more 325i's and ES350's. BMW builds great high end cars, but the majority of cars sold are 3 series... and Mercedes with their C class, and Lexus with their ES350. Heck, even the C and E classes are essentially like crown victorias, serving as taxi duting in Germany. But without the S class, Mercedes would never be taken seriously as a luxury make.
If Lexus never started with their LS400 in 1989, they would have NEVER done as well, nor would they have sold so many ES's. The ES is essentially a REALLY nice Camry. . .
Hyundai is dropping models like the Genesis and the Equus, and so far it's working well for sales of their low end models.
It's marketing.
Now, if they are going for a different segment, it's another story. There is the quasi-luxury market, ie Volvo, Saab, Volkswagen (to an extent) and (formerly) Audi. I say formerly because Audi has completely stepped up their game. They introduced the Audi V8 (model name), introduced in 1988, and it was later succeeded by the Audi A8 in 1994. Flagship cars such as this and even the new R8 are elements that are and have been elevating the brand to the luxury contender it is today. Sorry, but the markets are proving that there is just no market for 2 tier luxury cars such as Acura, Volvo, and Saab. Even among the domestics. . . lincoln, mercury, and chrysler cannot hold a candle to Cadillac. The Escalade pretty much has brought the name Cadillac (to the newer generation) up. The Catera nor the Deville nor Seville did it. The Escalade paved the way for the later success of the CTS.
Face it. Most people cannot afford a true luxury car and there isn't much money in making them. People want a nice'd up Camry, but they want the same badge on the hood as the 100k ultra sedan/sports car. And don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the ES; I love the model and would own one in a heart beat if I was in the market for it, but I've grown fond of two seaters, motorcycles, and hot hatches. . . chalk it up to my age. . .
If Lexus never started with their LS400 in 1989, they would have NEVER done as well, nor would they have sold so many ES's. The ES is essentially a REALLY nice Camry. . .
Hyundai is dropping models like the Genesis and the Equus, and so far it's working well for sales of their low end models.
It's marketing.
Now, if they are going for a different segment, it's another story. There is the quasi-luxury market, ie Volvo, Saab, Volkswagen (to an extent) and (formerly) Audi. I say formerly because Audi has completely stepped up their game. They introduced the Audi V8 (model name), introduced in 1988, and it was later succeeded by the Audi A8 in 1994. Flagship cars such as this and even the new R8 are elements that are and have been elevating the brand to the luxury contender it is today. Sorry, but the markets are proving that there is just no market for 2 tier luxury cars such as Acura, Volvo, and Saab. Even among the domestics. . . lincoln, mercury, and chrysler cannot hold a candle to Cadillac. The Escalade pretty much has brought the name Cadillac (to the newer generation) up. The Catera nor the Deville nor Seville did it. The Escalade paved the way for the later success of the CTS.
Face it. Most people cannot afford a true luxury car and there isn't much money in making them. People want a nice'd up Camry, but they want the same badge on the hood as the 100k ultra sedan/sports car. And don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the ES; I love the model and would own one in a heart beat if I was in the market for it, but I've grown fond of two seaters, motorcycles, and hot hatches. . . chalk it up to my age. . .
Badge of course is important, but it only takes you so far. If a brand starts building inferior products, badge alone wont save them.
Just look what happened to Jag, Landrover, Volvo, Saab, Lincoln and Caddy. Look whats happening to Acura now (and look how Lincoln and Caddy are back on the rise).
Product is where its at. Lexus would've never become what they have, if it wasn't for the quality of their products, from the very start.
06-08-10, 08:33 AM
#60
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True. . . I won't disagree to your point. I should rephrase my argument to say that badge, brand, having a flagship to build the brand identity, and of course a quality product are absolutely vital to building a luxury make. With the exception of of Jaguar and Landrover, all the brands listed above either do not have a high end flaship competitor (S class market), or have lacked one for decades.
Landrover was always a niche market and saw an unexpected boom due to the SUV craze. It's resulting shrinkage is nothing more than a market correction.
Landrover was always a niche market and saw an unexpected boom due to the SUV craze. It's resulting shrinkage is nothing more than a market correction.