Some thoughts on the Lexus ES
06-10-10, 04:52 PM
#32
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Great thread here. We talked about it in the ES forum, the ES finished 2nd in a recent comparo and did well in it. Considering it is now 4 years old that is pretty solid, it is not a new car as the TL, LaCrosse, Genesis, Taurus, etc all are newer.
The ES just sold over 5k units last month with not much advertising. Big plus for Lexus.
The ES just sold over 5k units last month with not much advertising. Big plus for Lexus.
06-10-10, 06:53 PM
#33
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Well,if the ESh is going into the $40K's,it will turn off a lot of people.
The ES is mostly bought by older people who probably don't drive much and the gas 3.5L gets very good MPGs.
I may wrong and it won't be the first or last time but I can't see Lexus going with a ES hybrid for quite awhile.
The ES is mostly bought by older people who probably don't drive much and the gas 3.5L gets very good MPGs.
I may wrong and it won't be the first or last time but I can't see Lexus going with a ES hybrid for quite awhile.
However, I don't think a 4 cylinder ESh would cost $40k.
The ES is a bread and butter luxury car. I think alot of people will say well gas is on the rise, so yeah I will by the hybrid. You are either going to own it long enough to recoup the savings in gas or sell it at a higher value because of the hybrid powetrain. ...and the RXh's resale value has proven to be worth more.
Last edited by SLegacy99; 06-10-10 at 06:58 PM.
06-10-10, 07:43 PM
#34
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I said in another thread that maybe the ES demographics don't desire hybrids. From what we have seen younger people and more techies buy hybrids. The CT is a hybrid only aimed squarely for even younger buyers than the HS was targeted for.
Would the ES get the 4 cylinder hybrid or a V-6 hybrid. If it gets the one the Camry has, that does 35/35, well that really creams the HS IMO.
Would the ES get the 4 cylinder hybrid or a V-6 hybrid. If it gets the one the Camry has, that does 35/35, well that really creams the HS IMO.
ES 240 (China)
ES 350
ES 250h or ES 450h (hopefully Lexus produces one or the other)
Last edited by Trexus; 06-10-10 at 07:49 PM.
06-10-10, 07:44 PM
#35
Lexus Champion
Market forces will determine if/when Lexus offers and ESh. With the 2010 refresh and improving economy sales are up to 5k profitable units per month. If any competitive models in the entry level luxury segment do well I'm sure they could respond quickly with an available hybrid powertrain.
Buick just started offering a 4 cyl in the LaCrosse, so no hybrid for now. Motorweek just tested it and its rated at 19/30 (ES=19/27) and 9.1 0-60 (ES=6.2) so other than price not a real compelling entry level luxury offering. My guess is they'll sell a lot more V6's.
Buick just started offering a 4 cyl in the LaCrosse, so no hybrid for now. Motorweek just tested it and its rated at 19/30 (ES=19/27) and 9.1 0-60 (ES=6.2) so other than price not a real compelling entry level luxury offering. My guess is they'll sell a lot more V6's.
Last edited by LexBob2; 06-10-10 at 07:54 PM.
06-11-10, 07:32 AM
#36
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The proverbial ESh would probably slot between the HS and GSh, meaning it'll probably share the RXh's drivetrain. The $45K RXh is selling just fine at 1000-1500 units a month. The RXh outsells the HS250h some months...
Great thread here. We talked about it in the ES forum, the ES finished 2nd in a recent comparo and did well in it. Considering it is now 4 years old that is pretty solid, it is not a new car as the TL, LaCrosse, Genesis, Taurus, etc all are newer.
The ES just sold over 5k units last month with not much advertising. Big plus for Lexus.
The ES just sold over 5k units last month with not much advertising. Big plus for Lexus.
With the new SC coming, GS-F, and possibly an IS-F Coupe and Convertible they'll have 6 F branded cars (including the LFA).
06-11-10, 08:26 AM
#37
I'm also with Och. Most of the people buying RXhs are middle aged to older, and most of the ES demographic fits into the same range. You would be surprised how many of these people like hybrids because they're quiet, smooth, and fuel efficient.
Also, like someone else mentioned, the GSh is a $70K car so there is definitely a void between the $40K HS and the GSh. ISh and ESh models would be great but I am thinking something more like an ES 300h (2.5L I4 mated to a hybrid, making 220ish hp) for efficiency and IS 450h (similar to the GS 450h's setup now) for performance.
Also, like someone else mentioned, the GSh is a $70K car so there is definitely a void between the $40K HS and the GSh. ISh and ESh models would be great but I am thinking something more like an ES 300h (2.5L I4 mated to a hybrid, making 220ish hp) for efficiency and IS 450h (similar to the GS 450h's setup now) for performance.
06-11-10, 10:53 AM
#38
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I'm also with Och. Most of the people buying RXhs are middle aged to older, and most of the ES demographic fits into the same range. You would be surprised how many of these people like hybrids because they're quiet, smooth, and fuel efficient.
Also, like someone else mentioned, the GSh is a $70K car so there is definitely a void between the $40K HS and the GSh. ISh and ESh models would be great but I am thinking something more like an ES 300h (2.5L I4 mated to a hybrid, making 220ish hp) for efficiency and IS 450h (similar to the GS 450h's setup now) for performance.
Also, like someone else mentioned, the GSh is a $70K car so there is definitely a void between the $40K HS and the GSh. ISh and ESh models would be great but I am thinking something more like an ES 300h (2.5L I4 mated to a hybrid, making 220ish hp) for efficiency and IS 450h (similar to the GS 450h's setup now) for performance.
As far as an ISh its definitely going to happen sooner or later, but I highly doubt we'll see it sold here in the US. The HS is the compact hybrid, and I doubt people would pay $45K for an ISh. An ESh on the other hand would be a bigger more premium car, and it will likely be paired with the 3.5L V6 engine like the RX. I think more people would buy an ESh for $45K than an ISh for the same price.
Btw your avatar makes me sick to my stomach
06-11-10, 11:03 AM
#40
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06-11-10, 09:36 PM
#41
Interesting thread! The ES is the best-selling Lexus sedan of all time, and continues to be its second best-selling model, year after year. However, in answer to the general question about why it isn't marketed heavily on Lexus.com, there are a number of factors.
Firstly, I'd argue that the ES sells itself quite well without hefty advertising. It's a luxury sedan stalwart, the 'default' choice with a market at times largely to itself, or with rivals coming and going, and consistency has been key to its success. It still gets ads for each generational launch, and refresh campaigns, including the recent 'wind tunnel' one. However, of late most ad coverage has to do with multi-model brand campaigns, e.g. the "December to Remember' IS/ES/RX, and the recent "Unprecedented Access" IS/HS/ES. The ES doesn't get the same individual model push that the IS, HS sedan lines have gotten, but outsells both (however with the IS variants and sales increasing, perhaps not in the future).
Second, the ES demographics and aspirational qualities. Short-lived Lexus VP Jim Farley made disparaging comments about the ES when he left for Ford, saying that its average buyer approached the 70s (misinterpreted by C&D to mean the whole brand, which averages in the 50s), and the main occupation was retired. He was very enthusiastic at the IS-F launch, saying "this car wasn't meant to be," but was necessary, and when he left said he "didn't want to be arguing over the price of an ES in Japan for the rest of his life", IIRC. The demographic argument, and focus on performance probably still is a focus at Lexus marketing. The ES benefits from the brand halo of the LS, and epitomizes' Lexus traditional strengths well, but doesn't really cast a performance or special halo the way the IS with its variants (F, C) does, or have a unique quality (hybrid, etc.) that can provide a techy edge.
Third, the ES has the Camry stigma to deal with, which limits its brand appeal as a 'true Lexus' and a dedicated model the way the LS always has been, and the IS and GS now are. It's also been the most public Lexus model affected by the Toyota recalls, which have further highlighted its shared Camry roots. The ES also is not a Global Lexus model the way the LS/GS/IS are, not being sold in Europe and parts of Asia. It is however the volume model in the US, and China.
As an aside, the rumors of the ES discontinuation, or platform change, have persisted since just before the last ES refresh. The ES is too highly profitable and central to Lexus' success in its 2 largest markets (US, China) to be discontinued IMO. It has to be better differentiated from the GS IMO, but not at the expense of interior opulence. And its formula has worked great. However, in light of the recent recalls, perhaps liberal increases of hp, the new SmartAccess button tech, bad floor mat design, and an aging demographic may have been the cause of ES acceleration complaints. The ES 240 probably is too 'downmarket' for Lexus USA (there are no displacement taxes here to the extent of China's), while the HS 250h seems to have obviated a similar ES 250h (the HS perhaps coming here as a byproduct of the JDM market decision).
Firstly, I'd argue that the ES sells itself quite well without hefty advertising. It's a luxury sedan stalwart, the 'default' choice with a market at times largely to itself, or with rivals coming and going, and consistency has been key to its success. It still gets ads for each generational launch, and refresh campaigns, including the recent 'wind tunnel' one. However, of late most ad coverage has to do with multi-model brand campaigns, e.g. the "December to Remember' IS/ES/RX, and the recent "Unprecedented Access" IS/HS/ES. The ES doesn't get the same individual model push that the IS, HS sedan lines have gotten, but outsells both (however with the IS variants and sales increasing, perhaps not in the future).
Second, the ES demographics and aspirational qualities. Short-lived Lexus VP Jim Farley made disparaging comments about the ES when he left for Ford, saying that its average buyer approached the 70s (misinterpreted by C&D to mean the whole brand, which averages in the 50s), and the main occupation was retired. He was very enthusiastic at the IS-F launch, saying "this car wasn't meant to be," but was necessary, and when he left said he "didn't want to be arguing over the price of an ES in Japan for the rest of his life", IIRC. The demographic argument, and focus on performance probably still is a focus at Lexus marketing. The ES benefits from the brand halo of the LS, and epitomizes' Lexus traditional strengths well, but doesn't really cast a performance or special halo the way the IS with its variants (F, C) does, or have a unique quality (hybrid, etc.) that can provide a techy edge.
Third, the ES has the Camry stigma to deal with, which limits its brand appeal as a 'true Lexus' and a dedicated model the way the LS always has been, and the IS and GS now are. It's also been the most public Lexus model affected by the Toyota recalls, which have further highlighted its shared Camry roots. The ES also is not a Global Lexus model the way the LS/GS/IS are, not being sold in Europe and parts of Asia. It is however the volume model in the US, and China.
As an aside, the rumors of the ES discontinuation, or platform change, have persisted since just before the last ES refresh. The ES is too highly profitable and central to Lexus' success in its 2 largest markets (US, China) to be discontinued IMO. It has to be better differentiated from the GS IMO, but not at the expense of interior opulence. And its formula has worked great. However, in light of the recent recalls, perhaps liberal increases of hp, the new SmartAccess button tech, bad floor mat design, and an aging demographic may have been the cause of ES acceleration complaints. The ES 240 probably is too 'downmarket' for Lexus USA (there are no displacement taxes here to the extent of China's), while the HS 250h seems to have obviated a similar ES 250h (the HS perhaps coming here as a byproduct of the JDM market decision).
06-12-10, 07:16 AM
#42
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Interesting thread! The ES is the best-selling Lexus sedan of all time, and continues to be its second best-selling model, year after year. However, in answer to the general question about why it isn't marketed heavily on Lexus.com, there are a number of factors.
Firstly, I'd argue that the ES sells itself quite well without hefty advertising. It's a luxury sedan stalwart, the 'default' choice with a market at times largely to itself, or with rivals coming and going, and consistency has been key to its success. It still gets ads for each generational launch, and refresh campaigns, including the recent 'wind tunnel' one. However, of late most ad coverage has to do with multi-model brand campaigns, e.g. the "December to Remember' IS/ES/RX, and the recent "Unprecedented Access" IS/HS/ES. The ES doesn't get the same individual model push that the IS, HS sedan lines have gotten, but outsells both (however with the IS variants and sales increasing, perhaps not in the future).
Second, the ES demographics and aspirational qualities. Short-lived Lexus VP Jim Farley made disparaging comments about the ES when he left for Ford, saying that its average buyer approached the 70s (misinterpreted by C&D to mean the whole brand, which averages in the 50s), and the main occupation was retired. He was very enthusiastic at the IS-F launch, saying "this car wasn't meant to be," but was necessary, and when he left said he "didn't want to be arguing over the price of an ES in Japan for the rest of his life", IIRC. The demographic argument, and focus on performance probably still is a focus at Lexus marketing. The ES benefits from the brand halo of the LS, and epitomizes' Lexus traditional strengths well, but doesn't really cast a performance or special halo the way the IS with its variants (F, C) does, or have a unique quality (hybrid, etc.) that can provide a techy edge.
Third, the ES has the Camry stigma to deal with, which limits its brand appeal as a 'true Lexus' and a dedicated model the way the LS always has been, and the IS and GS now are. It's also been the most public Lexus model affected by the Toyota recalls, which have further highlighted its shared Camry roots. The ES also is not a Global Lexus model the way the LS/GS/IS are, not being sold in Europe and parts of Asia. It is however the volume model in the US, and China.
As an aside, the rumors of the ES discontinuation, or platform change, have persisted since just before the last ES refresh. The ES is too highly profitable and central to Lexus' success in its 2 largest markets (US, China) to be discontinued IMO. It has to be better differentiated from the GS IMO, but not at the expense of interior opulence. And its formula has worked great. However, in light of the recent recalls, perhaps liberal increases of hp, the new SmartAccess button tech, bad floor mat design, and an aging demographic may have been the cause of ES acceleration complaints. The ES 240 probably is too 'downmarket' for Lexus USA (there are no displacement taxes here to the extent of China's), while the HS 250h seems to have obviated a similar ES 250h (the HS perhaps coming here as a byproduct of the JDM market decision).
Firstly, I'd argue that the ES sells itself quite well without hefty advertising. It's a luxury sedan stalwart, the 'default' choice with a market at times largely to itself, or with rivals coming and going, and consistency has been key to its success. It still gets ads for each generational launch, and refresh campaigns, including the recent 'wind tunnel' one. However, of late most ad coverage has to do with multi-model brand campaigns, e.g. the "December to Remember' IS/ES/RX, and the recent "Unprecedented Access" IS/HS/ES. The ES doesn't get the same individual model push that the IS, HS sedan lines have gotten, but outsells both (however with the IS variants and sales increasing, perhaps not in the future).
Second, the ES demographics and aspirational qualities. Short-lived Lexus VP Jim Farley made disparaging comments about the ES when he left for Ford, saying that its average buyer approached the 70s (misinterpreted by C&D to mean the whole brand, which averages in the 50s), and the main occupation was retired. He was very enthusiastic at the IS-F launch, saying "this car wasn't meant to be," but was necessary, and when he left said he "didn't want to be arguing over the price of an ES in Japan for the rest of his life", IIRC. The demographic argument, and focus on performance probably still is a focus at Lexus marketing. The ES benefits from the brand halo of the LS, and epitomizes' Lexus traditional strengths well, but doesn't really cast a performance or special halo the way the IS with its variants (F, C) does, or have a unique quality (hybrid, etc.) that can provide a techy edge.
Third, the ES has the Camry stigma to deal with, which limits its brand appeal as a 'true Lexus' and a dedicated model the way the LS always has been, and the IS and GS now are. It's also been the most public Lexus model affected by the Toyota recalls, which have further highlighted its shared Camry roots. The ES also is not a Global Lexus model the way the LS/GS/IS are, not being sold in Europe and parts of Asia. It is however the volume model in the US, and China.
As an aside, the rumors of the ES discontinuation, or platform change, have persisted since just before the last ES refresh. The ES is too highly profitable and central to Lexus' success in its 2 largest markets (US, China) to be discontinued IMO. It has to be better differentiated from the GS IMO, but not at the expense of interior opulence. And its formula has worked great. However, in light of the recent recalls, perhaps liberal increases of hp, the new SmartAccess button tech, bad floor mat design, and an aging demographic may have been the cause of ES acceleration complaints. The ES 240 probably is too 'downmarket' for Lexus USA (there are no displacement taxes here to the extent of China's), while the HS 250h seems to have obviated a similar ES 250h (the HS perhaps coming here as a byproduct of the JDM market decision).
06-12-10, 11:16 AM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
Short-lived Lexus VP Jim Farley made disparaging comments about the ES when he left for Ford, saying that its average buyer approached the 70s
I think that, when Farley left, somebody or something just p***ed him off at Lexus, and he was just looking for something negative to say to get his rocks off, even if he had to make it up.
Last edited by mmarshall; 06-12-10 at 11:22 AM.