mmarshall

Well, Mike.....I know you'll probably give your views on this.

We've had a LOT of discussion on CAR CHAT lately about newer Acura products, their styling, their lack of V8s and 6-speed autos, the parrot-beak grilles, the ugly new TL, the low sales of the RL, the RDX's peaky engine, the downright silly ZDX....on and on. I won't re-hash it all here again.....many of you (and me) have already had your say about that.

You all know (or many of you, at least) that I have a very high opinion of the RL (especially its build quality), and would probably be driving one (or a BMW 335ix, or a couple of Lexus models) if I were to spend 50K for a new car. But that, in fact, is not really an issue here as I just don't spend that much on a new car, even if I like it.

But it's no secret that RLs just aren't moving, nationwide. There are a reasonable number of them here in the D.C. area (they aren't numerous, but not rare, either). But nationwide, the RL, despite its exellence, seems to have about the same sales appeal as a worn-out Yugo.


The upsoming TSX Sportwagon seems to be a relatively handsome vehicle (unusual for a newer Acura), but, even there, Acura is limiting its potential to much by not offering the SH-AWD in it.

But, something that many of us don't seem to have considered, or at least not discussed publically.......should the Acura namplate be dropped in the U.S.? Or absorbed into Honda? Or sold as upmarket Honda products, with different grilles? Or another type of reorgnization (suggestion)?

Frankly, with the loss of so many auto companies and divisions in the last several years, I cetainly don't relish the thought of yet another one going, but the sad fact is that the Acura stylists seem to have really screwed things up lately, and done a lot of damage to the company. A lot of potential Acura shoppers, because of what they see in pictures, aren't even going to Acura showrooms any more (except, maybe, for the MDX). Can this damage be reversed without dropping the division and/or the Acura nameplate? Your thoughts.

AlexusAnja

The question is worth thinking from the outside, but I don't think that any thought of this is going on within Honda and that's all that really matters.

If what you are trying to propose is for Acura to be absorbed into Honda, where Honda sells an RL equivalent or MDX variances, isn't then Honda trying to be like Hyundai and NOT create a separate luxury brand to sell it's "luxury" vehicles? I just don't think that formula works. It would be a tough sell to sell a $45-50K Honda, just like the Hyundai Equuis when it arrives and sells for $50K+ is going to be a tough sell.

Hey, every manufacturer makes misques here and there, unfortunately Acura has been missing for quite a few years now, but it just needs better corporate direction and rethinking about where and what Acura wants to be.

I think Acura will be around for a long time. Unlike the recent beheading (i.e. Mercury), Honda only has two makes, Honda and Acura. It's not like they have three or four makes.

mmarshall

Well, the Acura division itself does not exist worldwidelike Honda does. What we know in America as Acuras are often sold as Hondas in some other countries. Of course, in Canada, you have the reverse......the American-market Honda Civic is actually sold as a rebadged Acura there.

Yes...I mentioned the Equus comparison in another thread. Mazda's Millenia was not successful under the Mazda nameplate (it had been destined for Mazda's upmarket Amati divison before Ford cancelled Amati). Toyota's Avalon, though, did have some success under the Toyota, rather than Lexus, nameplate, though it could not compete with Camry's sales). Time will tell with the Equus.
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Agreed, but in the meantime, several other companies and competitors have (strongly) benefitted from Acura's problems.

The average Ford and the average Mercury, in general, are much closer to each other in styling/trim than the average Honda and Acura are to each other. Though there are powertrain/chassis similarities, Acura styling and interiors, on the average, are MUCH different from Hondas. The difference at Ford and Mercury, nevertheless, is with the customers. Ex-Mercury customers (and we've had a lot of CL discussion on this in Ford/Mercury threads) are (probably) more likely to cross over to GM and look at Buicks than shop for Fords.....although, at present, there is no concrete proof of this. What would happen with ex-Acura customers if something similiar happened there is, of course, anybody's guess......one reason why I started this thread.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

personally i think it's a "waste" to drop the brand, considering the previous success. i guess you can say i *think* there is still hope, but only if they change fast enough...

(Cj)

Well there's no hope of them ever being tier one. Honda just needs to get a reality check where Acura is concerned. They've already decided on NO V8s and RWD, so they need to stop charging RWD/V8 price tags for their vehicles. Every Acura should have a starting price below $40K including the RL and ZitDX.

Acura needs to reevaluate their true competition. It's not Lexus and BMW, it's Lincoln and Buick. They should bring their prices and product in line with those two brands and at that point I don't think anyone would complain.

With expectations so low for the brand they may as well have a product line that looks like this:

$25K Civic based Sedan
$30K TSX
$30K RDX
$35K TL
$35K ZDX (yes it's that overpriced)
$40K RL
$40K MDX

Sales would go up incrementally if they took a more realistic approach. The brand doesn't necessarily need to be axed, but completely rethought with a new approach.

LexFather

lol, Mike My post(s) willl likely be linked around the globe so I might tread light

They should save their money and drop it. In retrospect, they didn't launch the brand correctly and have been suffering with Honda plus stigma ever since.

Look Hyundai makes a true luxury car compared to them. Hyundai. Hyundai. In 1986 Acura was the first Japanese luxury attempt and Hyundai brought the awful Excel. It is now 2010 and Acura continues to sell Honda plus cars and Hyundai has the Genesis and Equuas which completely embarrass any luxury sedan attempt Acura has made.

They have no intentions of elevating Acura to be a real luxury brand or selling it worldwide so GIVE IT UP. All we got was a bunch of lies and useless talk. So why go through all the trouble here for a few vehicles? Just bring them over as the Euro Accord, Legend and call the Hondas. Its not like the luxury world would cry or anything, people probably wont' even notice except Civic boys. They toyed with Honda boys for over a decade with "hoop dreams" of V-8s, RWD, NSXx etc. The reality is they canned most anything of interest.

To top it off, they then did what no one expected. They made their lineup so laughingly ugly that people laugh at how ugly they are. So they compounded their Honda Plus issue with a whole lot of ugly. Not sure what the hell they were thinking.

Acura continues to make one or two good moves surrounded by ten bad ones. No reason for them to be around. We are talking about 3 sedans and 3 SUVs. Who cares? The Honda Accord is just as big, with the same basic interior with the same tranny and the same old engine. Sure you lose the AWD option and HIDs but that is about it.

We are all aspirational people here. Outside of Lexus we talk about moving into M vehicles, 550s, AMG cars, Jaguars, Porsches etc. Acura is never mentioned. It is not aspirational at all. Every expensive Acura has failed. NSX, RL for 15 years, ZDX. All failures. Acura cannot sell past 40k. The only one is the MDX and any SUV sells. Hell 40k Tahoes and Yukons sell. Its not hard.

The Acura ZDX is the perfect example of how bad this company has gotten and how far they are from their roots and why they need to be canned. The ZDX is the shining example of all that is wrong with this company. Cars like the NSX, Legend, Integra did more with less. They maximized space, they maximzed engines, they were vehicles that were different yet good. The ZDX is a follower, a BMW knock-off. It makes horrid use of space. It uses an old engine. Their "new" technology is a 6 speed automatic GM and Ford have used for years. Its not better at anything.

Then you have quality which is now barely average in survey after survey. Acura doesn't even shine here. They are AVERAGE in quality year after year, hovering right over average. What is the point?

The dealerships are a mess. Some are updated and these dealers are pissed as they spent millions to revamp dealerships on the promise Tier 1 is coming only to be told NOTHING is coming but a Civic CSX rebadge. The ones that didn't upgrade look like Honda dealers. Compared to luxury brands they are simply not on par with them.

Acura needs to go because its so bad it makes it harder to take Lexus and Infiniti serious as Japanese luxury brands. It taints the entire Japanese luxury stigma with their half assed attempts at luxury. Infiniti is giving it a solid try. They continue to elevate their brand with better products and are trying to sell worldwide. Lexus is not even a comparison with Acura, its not even close. Acura simply does nothing good better than anyone. Sadly the only thing they stand for now is ugly. Who wants to be known as the "ugly" brand? It is ridiculous to think that we can have a SERIOUS discussion that their BEST vehicles were ones sold 20 years ago in the NSX and 2nd gen Legend.

Combine it with Honda, compete with Hyundai, call it a good life.

RA40

iTrader: (6)

I viewed Honda and Acura as near parallel offerings. Slightly different badges, feature set/options on nearly the same chassis. Ford-Mercury, Chevrolet-Pontiac... Integrated, they have these incremental steps in cars like Toyota has for their JDM segment. Maybe Honda at one time wanted the segregation for upscale but I didn't see them that way at least with the Integra in the line-up. Even the RSX seems marginal.

IDK what to make of the Pilot and MDX offerings.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

I agree. There's time to change, but that change has to start now. Better decisions need to be made and customers wants and needs need to be met less the brand slowly fade out and follow the footsteps of say Mercury

CDNROCKIES

+1

Well said. Until Acura stops the charade of pretending to be Tier 1 and accepts and commits to building competitors to the next segment they will continue to struggle. There are much more people buying cars in the price range you mention than $50K+ anyways.

mmarshall

I wasn't terribly impressed with the first-Gen Acuras either. They improved drastically from the mid/late 80s into the early/mid 90s, then started what was IMO a slow drop.


No arguements there, though the current RL and TSX don't share much of that ugliness outside of the parrot-beak grilles.

That's assuming that the NSX is never replaced (Honda/Acura has been playing a guessing game for the last 10 years on that one). Even if it is replaced, the NSX's sales would probably be extremely low.



The RL's interior, compared to the Accord's, is a completely different world (even in build quality), though I agree with you that the exteriors are similiar.

The MDX sells for its all-around usefulness and refinement, although the Lexus RX does beat it a little in the refinement depatment.

Yes, probably. The ZDX, as I see it, is (likely) going to go down in history with the Pontiac Aztek.

Consumer Reports gives all of the American-market Acuras better-than-average repair records. What's the lone exception? The RL....which is average (but that seems to be because some owner-data on the recent models is lacking from low sales). Most of the RL problems, from what data they have, have come from the audio system

I can understand your reasons for wanting Acura's demise, and don't entirely disagree with it (that's why I started the thread), but I don't see how that will affect the public view of Lexus or Infiniti. Lexus has always been successful (except for the initial ES250 and the recent safety investigations), and Infiniti (initially) messed up because of the design and/or marketing of the Q45, J30, M30, and G20, not because of anything Acura did.

whoster

Having grown up most of her life in an upper-middle class neighborhood surrounding a very much upscale neighborhood, my sister's seen the soccer moms swap to the brand new Sienna AWD Limiteds as soon as they're shipping, the switch to the new Tahoe and Yukons. The boom of Infiniti G35 a few years ago and now these days the outcropping of new 4Runners and the new Sienna (probably helps that TMS HQ is located here).

She also saw the sudden rise in Infiniti with their launch of the G35 and the blooming success of the previous generation TLs and TSXs.

She told me, as I picked her up from school yesterday:
"You know, I didn't think cars fall in and out of trends so drastically--no one drives Acuras anymore. Who wants to drive ugly cars?"



I'm not so sure if dropping Acura is the way to go--but I do feel like their current design language and serious lack of technological progress is really hindering whatever the vision the company has. The 04-08(? or did the ugly start in 08) TL models were really popular--I was blown away just by the driving dynamics, build quality and it's sharp good looks. I almost bought a 03 TL Type-S before I got the GS400. I really felt like the early '00s Acura had a great thing going. Good looking cars, no-nonsense "smart" luxury at great prices, and "great" overall reliability (I didn't forget those exploding transmissions).

But somehow they just totally screwed everything up in the past 2 years or so.The TL is outrageous. I went from wanting RLs to hating the current one. I remember not so long ago the Acura concept car was ugly to the point of making me just dislike the brand entirely (since concept cars showcase exaggerated design language cues from upcoming production cars).

I think this isn't just an issue with Acura however. I feel like something's amiss at Honda in general. The Hydrogen FCX-Clarity, a great idea--but what about all the other cars in their lineup normal people can actually buy?

- Civic: redesign delayed
- Fit: uglification 101
- Accord:...it's an Accord, but still a sight for sore eyes compared to the competition which isn't getting any uglier the last time I checked.
- Accord Crosstur....tour:
- Element: I liked it. Are they even bothering to refresh it?
- CR-V: I'd say it's slightly underpowered, especially next to a V6 Rav-4
- Insight: Oh come on. Hybrid for everybody, but no one really wants it. I still see the new Prius in droves.
- Odyssey: Once the King of family minivans. Still with the ancient 3.5L
- Pilot: A decent idea, made ugly--now I don't ever see them on the road
- Ridgeline: Another decent idea--poor execution and marketing. I like the drained cooler in the back, and...nothing else.


A company that once used to have a solid bread & butter lineup that didn't really need marketing to sell--has completely lost it's way and now can't even keep up with the Koreans (for those who might find that statement offensive, I am Korean and it's the truth. They used to make some terrible cars.).

Whatever Honda's not doing right--it's only being exemplified at Acura. Something needs to be shaken up, and seriously so.

madoka

The thing that bothers me is that by now Acura knows how badly their ugly cars are doing in the marketplace, yet there are no plans on correcting it. I drove by a last gen TL a couple of hours ago. While a bit bland, it is a handsome car. The new TL is offensively ugly. Even Pontiac recognized their Aztec turd and immediately made plans to resign it. I haven't heard a peep from Acura regarding fixing the beak.

BLK98GS3

I dont think the brand should be dropped by any means, but a MAJOR overhaul is in order. They may just need to get rid of all the people at the top responsible for the poor decisions that have been made in the past few years.

Maybe get some consumer reaction to their vehicle designs before release?

phil05

Seems like everyone is making Acura sound like Pontiac, they have issues with their recent designs but by the sales numbers it doesn't look too bad compared to other lux. brands.

Year to Date sales 2010:
Cadillac: 52,997
Acura: 50,278
Audi: 39,839
Infiniti: 38,996
Lincoln: 37,444

CDNROCKIES

Outside of Audi, the only Tier 1 brand listed, every one of the other manufacturers listed have major issues of their own.