View Poll Results: Is the Union right or wrong here?
Right
1
1.96%
Wrong
47
92.16%
Undecided
3
5.88%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll
Toyota to restart US auto plant, draws UAW ire
#16
are you originally from elsewhere and then transplanted?
#17
Lexus Champion
Unions have no purpose in today's NA market, other than to protect the weak. Quality workers pay funds to support the bottom of the barrel workers that prefer to do less and ride on everyone else's coat tails.
Somebody else brought up construction unions, but an even bigger issue are the Teacher's unions. Teachers that have no business being in schools and dealing with children continue to be employed because the union has grown so powerful that many school boards are unable or afraid to terminate useless employees.
If you suck at your job, you should lose it. The only purpose of unions is to keep bad employees on the payroll at everyone else's expense.
Somebody else brought up construction unions, but an even bigger issue are the Teacher's unions. Teachers that have no business being in schools and dealing with children continue to be employed because the union has grown so powerful that many school boards are unable or afraid to terminate useless employees.
If you suck at your job, you should lose it. The only purpose of unions is to keep bad employees on the payroll at everyone else's expense.
#18
I don't want to get into a political debate so I'll just state that I consider myself quite liberal and pro-union, but having said that, the way the UAW is going about this is ridiculous.
Last edited by venom21; 06-20-10 at 01:14 PM.
#19
Unions had a place in the world back in the 40's when work conditions, labor, and conditions in life for some industries just did not meet the minimum standards for human life. Shops were dangerous, pay was crap, management didn't give a rats **** about their employees, so Unions needed to be formed to get their fair share. It was neede back then.
Nowadays with the fast pace of news getting out, bad PR, etc. that a company would get if they did not make conditions good, would cause a company to literrally crumble under their feet. So, the use of Unions to get their employees 5-6% raises, when then national avearge is about 3% and inflation 4% or so, is seem by the general public as just an entity that doesn't have a place in our world any more.
Nowadays with the fast pace of news getting out, bad PR, etc. that a company would get if they did not make conditions good, would cause a company to literrally crumble under their feet. So, the use of Unions to get their employees 5-6% raises, when then national avearge is about 3% and inflation 4% or so, is seem by the general public as just an entity that doesn't have a place in our world any more.
#20
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (3)
I will not argue with you, there was a time and place in history when unions were needed - when they brought important changes to wages, work and safety conditions, etc. Todays unions are a bunch of corrupt organizations who only care about collection their dues, and union members/workers only purpose is to milk their employers into as much overtime as possible. They serve no purpose in todays society.
I'm sure you feel this way for a reason, but you're wrong on this. The construction unions weren't the ones destroying the construction industry. The financial people who decided that every stick they put into a home was now worth 3 times the amount without an extra penny in cost from labor are what crippled the industry. Pushing the assessors, lenders, and banks to promote "products" that got people who have no business owning a home crippled the industry. Are there bad members and bad practices in some of the construction industry? Absolutely, but to say that the unions are destroying it unilaterally is not only unfair, it's patently false. Without these unions fighting for updates in construction codes and learning new materials, housing today would be no better built than it was 40 years ago, and that would be bad for all of us.
The UAW, for all intents and purposes, has done it's job - but that job is now over. No one could argue they need better wages, more controls on their retirement, or safer working conditions. There are now laws in place that protect all these things and rightfully so. At this point, the leadership of the UAW needs to forge partnerships with companies, not point fingers or 'create' news stories in order to remain relevant. The leadership needs to recognize that not only do they not have nearly as much "work" to do for their employees, but they have to work in different ways. The companies should have every right to become more efficient without having to justify it to a union when they purchase a machine that does a job better than the men or women doing it and will yield a better product. This is called progress, and it's time the UAW learned how to work within the system. Start working with manufacturers that build machines like this to train them how to repair or operate them - that would be beneficial to employees, but they would have to be willing to listen and learn. Gone are the days of having one skill, working as many hours as your body could handle, and going back the next day to the same monotonous task. This is where the UAW has failed their members, IMO. They should be requiring them to cross train and learn new skills if they want to bargain from a position of top labor for top dollars. I know they are working toward this, but their feet were stuck in concrete for too long when the transitions started and they fought from the worst position - catch up. Time to pay the piper.
Big Mack
Big Mack
#21
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2004
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I am a construction business owner, and you're wrong. First of all, residential housing construction is mostly non union, so you're right about what destroyed that part of construction industry. But a lot of construction industry is commercial construction and renovation, and the unions are solely responsible for destroying it.
As an owner, I'm sure you've had to deal with employees who feel they are entitled to things they aren't, and that's unfortunate. It's not really fair to lump every employee into that, though, is it? I know as a business owner myself in numerous iterations I had similar issues. You work to train good employees, breed good habits, and create a positive environment. That's called leadership, and it's what many of today's employees don't have from their managers, supervisors, or in some cases, their union heads.
Thanks, mang.
Big Mack
#22
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (3)
You yourself confirmed what I said, so that means I'm not wrong. Residential construction where you are may be mostly non union, but that's not the case everywhere. Those who are in the union dominated areas still are build by carpenters, electrical workers, and plumbers who are union labor. These men and women, many of whom I know, are at the forefront of changing the laws in the country to improve the way housing is built. You cannot say that they aren't because that would be false. Are they all wonderful? Of course not. There are bad apples in every bunch, but they do serve a purpose. And I have to disagree with you about commercial construction. The largest projects are controlled by big corporations who are not only union, but work extensively with the unions to ensure that the engineering that goes on as a building is being built are done properly. Every architect and designer thinks their ideas and designs are flawless, but things do come up and having someone who has been trained and learned from those who came before and not just the cookie cutter "we always do this" type of training is what separates the wheat from the chaff.
I really don't want to take this too far off topic - if you'd like to, you can make a thread in the debate forum, I'll be happy to debate it with you in depth.
But I still want to say that I am in NYC, and most (at least 95% by my estimate) of residential construction here is non union.
I think that's very cold of you. Those who behave that way should certainly get their comeuppance, and I agree with you that it is coming, but to wish that on everyone is just beyond me. There are many good employees who work hard every day and don't deserve to be starving.
Big Mack
Big Mack
Trust me, I'm not the only one who feels like that. I bet 999 out of 1000 small construction company owners in NYC feels the same way.
#23
Lexus Champion
#26
Unions had a place in the world back in the 40's when work conditions, labor, and conditions in life for some industries just did not meet the minimum standards for human life. Shops were dangerous, pay was crap, management didn't give a rats **** about their employees, so Unions needed to be formed to get their fair share. It was needed back then.
Nowadays with the fast pace of news getting out, bad PR, etc. that a company would get if they did not make conditions good, would cause a company to literrally crumble under their feet. So, the use of Unions to get their employees 5-6% raises, when then national avearge is about 3% and inflation 4% or so, is seem by the general public as just an entity that doesn't have a place in our world any more.
Unions do still serve some purpose though. They can ensure that employees don't get fired without just cause. They help ensure that workers with seniority are not passed over for promotion simply because another can be brought in for cheaper. They negotiate for benefits that employers might not otherwise offer to their workforce. Unfortunately, there is also a lot of room for abuse in the system. For example, some workers are allowed to progress based solely on seniority, rather than ability.
Unfortunately, some unions have lost their way over the years, and not progressed into the modern world. Some would rather force themselves down the throats of employers unyieldingly, rather than really sit and work with them for the benefit of both the workers AND the employer.
Had the UAW been willing to make concessions with the Detroit over the years, the Big 3 might not have gotten in trouble as deep as they did. So I gotta side with Toyota for the moment....
#27
Human Rights Violater
DETROIT — The United Auto Workers union is positioning itself as a car company partner rather than an adversary as it renews a campaign to sign up workers at U.S. plants owned by foreign-based car companies.
Yet Bob King, the union's president, says it will play tough with Toyota, Honda, BMW, Hyundai and others if they don't agree to secret ballot election principles that the union is backing. Companies that don't sign on to the principles will be branded in as human rights violators, King told an industry group last week.
The UAW has had little success the past 30 years in organizing workers at U.S. factories owned by Japanese, Korean and German auto companies. The companies built factories mainly in southern states such as Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi and Kentucky that are generally not as union-friendly as the UAW's home base around the Great Lakes. Many pay wages comparable to UAW-represented factories owned by Detroit automakers, but the foreign companies have avoided UAW work rules that can make plants less efficient.
King, speaking at the Automotive News World Congress in Detroit, said the union has learned from the Detroit companies' near-death experience and has eliminated inefficient work rules, job classifications and other issues that foreign companies have feared. Instead, he said the union understands how globalization has made it necessary for the UAW to help auto companies make money by being more competitive.
"We have paid a deep price for failing to learn this lesson quickly enough," King said. "The UAW has learned from the past, and we have embraced dramatic and radical change."
As General Motors, Chrysler and Ford faced severe financial problems in 2009, the union agreed under pressure from Congress to scrap the "jobs bank," in which laid-off workers got most of their pay indefinitely for doing nothing. Now they get some pay for up to 2 years but can lose it if they turn down a job at a different factory.
The union also has agreed to let the companies pay newly hired workers around $15 an hour, about half the hourly wage of a longtime UAW worker.
The union, though, still is seeking a "fair deal" with the companies, which means pay and benefits that can sustain a middle class lifestyle, King said.
The UAW wants the companies to agree to a secret ballot election without threatening workers that the factory will close if it's unionized, and to give the union equal campaign time to talk with workers, King said.
For those who don't agree, the UAW will hold demonstrations and campaign with consumers to make its human rights point, King said.
"I would be very, very concerned if I was an auto manufacturer, of having young people, college students, young college graduates, feel that I was a human rights violator," he said.
Toyota spokesman Mike Goss wouldn't comment on King's speech. Messages were left with BMW and Hyundai officials.
At the Detroit auto show earlier this week, a top Honda executive said the decision on joining the UAW is up to the workers.
"They've never seen the need, so far, to have anybody intervene on their behalf, work in partner with them, and I think that continues to be their decision, not ours," said John Mendel, executive vice president of sales for American Honda, which has several factories in Central Ohio.
The UAW is pushing for additional members as membership has fallen from a high of 1.5 million in 1979 to around 350,000.
#29
Lexus Champion