Where do all these recalls leave Lexus?
07-06-10, 06:05 PM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by rominl
lexus problems didn't start early this year. it dates way back to 2006 when they new generations came out bearing the name l-finesse. if anything, the recalls are more of a "black and white" proof of their problem and a big public slap on them regarding the issue.
looking back at early 2000s, lexus was arguably at its prime in terms of vehicles and especially quality and reliability. it's been mentioned a lot before, ls430, sc430, gs430, all those are completely bullet proof vehicles.
but since 2006, from my somewhat big exposure to lexus vehicles, here's what i have seen...
- 3gs have a lot of quality issues. rattles, squeaks, fit and finish
- 4ls have dash rattle issues, wind noise, vgrs recall
- gx460, stability control recall
- hs fuel leak recall
- 2is and es350 gas pedal recall
if anything, the lx570 and 3rx are the cars that i haven't read much problem about
so as some can see, problems have been brewing since 2006. as mentioned, this is in no doubt going to affect toyota/lexus reputation for a while. it's harder to bring in new buyers than retaining current ones, and it's definitely not hard to drive away owners.
of course, sales numbers might show otherwise (lexus continues to sell the most number of luxury vehicles past few years i believe), but it doesn't take away fact that there are certain number of people out there saying they are disappointed and likely won't return to lexus because of their quality and reliability issues.
i think it's hard to deny that most owners choose toyota/lexus brands for their reputation in build quality and long term reliability. if they are to lose these "perks" as well, then they lose their biggest leverage.
i work on a lot of recent lexus, i notice a lot of quality issues (compared to previous generations), and seeing these problems first hand (and also problems i have on mine now), my wife actually once asked me "so if this goes on, what's the point of continue getting lexus?" my reply was "right now, i still think it's better bet to own lexus than mb or bmw, but yes, if this continues..."
i am sure i am not the only one thinking this way, and it's a serious problem toyota has to face. first off i really like how they react and deal with their most recent recall problems (gx, ls, valve). they are very quick and responsive imho, not allowing media to have much time to tell "their stories", and just quickly say "we are going to fix the problem period". that's a very good start i think
but at the same time, it's up to them to do whatever it takes to significantly boost up their quality issues on their next generation of vehicles. given public perception, current generation vehicles are "done", even if we don't hear anything else again. but the future vehicles, those are what people will keep an eye on and the real judgment time comes.
maybe it will take lexus another 2-3 years to recover and get back to where they were, but that's doable. however if they manage to screw up more, it will likely take significantly more time, if at all
looking back at early 2000s, lexus was arguably at its prime in terms of vehicles and especially quality and reliability. it's been mentioned a lot before, ls430, sc430, gs430, all those are completely bullet proof vehicles.
but since 2006, from my somewhat big exposure to lexus vehicles, here's what i have seen...
- 3gs have a lot of quality issues. rattles, squeaks, fit and finish
- 4ls have dash rattle issues, wind noise, vgrs recall
- gx460, stability control recall
- hs fuel leak recall
- 2is and es350 gas pedal recall
if anything, the lx570 and 3rx are the cars that i haven't read much problem about
so as some can see, problems have been brewing since 2006. as mentioned, this is in no doubt going to affect toyota/lexus reputation for a while. it's harder to bring in new buyers than retaining current ones, and it's definitely not hard to drive away owners.
of course, sales numbers might show otherwise (lexus continues to sell the most number of luxury vehicles past few years i believe), but it doesn't take away fact that there are certain number of people out there saying they are disappointed and likely won't return to lexus because of their quality and reliability issues.
i think it's hard to deny that most owners choose toyota/lexus brands for their reputation in build quality and long term reliability. if they are to lose these "perks" as well, then they lose their biggest leverage.
i work on a lot of recent lexus, i notice a lot of quality issues (compared to previous generations), and seeing these problems first hand (and also problems i have on mine now), my wife actually once asked me "so if this goes on, what's the point of continue getting lexus?" my reply was "right now, i still think it's better bet to own lexus than mb or bmw, but yes, if this continues..."
i am sure i am not the only one thinking this way, and it's a serious problem toyota has to face. first off i really like how they react and deal with their most recent recall problems (gx, ls, valve). they are very quick and responsive imho, not allowing media to have much time to tell "their stories", and just quickly say "we are going to fix the problem period". that's a very good start i think
but at the same time, it's up to them to do whatever it takes to significantly boost up their quality issues on their next generation of vehicles. given public perception, current generation vehicles are "done", even if we don't hear anything else again. but the future vehicles, those are what people will keep an eye on and the real judgment time comes.
maybe it will take lexus another 2-3 years to recover and get back to where they were, but that's doable. however if they manage to screw up more, it will likely take significantly more time, if at all
Henry, I think your whole lengthy post can be summed up in one sentence....... Toyota/Lexus simply grew too fast for its own good, and other priorities started displacing quality in design and assembly.
I agree with you, BTW, that 2006 marked the biggest single turning point in the general quality drop (when it was steepest and became most noticeable), especially with the Camry and Tundra.
07-06-10, 06:08 PM
#17
Henry, I think your whole lengthy post can be summed up in one sentence....... Toyota/Lexus simply grew too fast for its own good, and other priorities started displacing quality in design and assembly.
I agree with you, BTW, that 2006 marked the biggest single turning point in the general quality drop (when it was steepest and became most noticeable), especially with the Camry and Tundra.
I agree with you, BTW, that 2006 marked the biggest single turning point in the general quality drop (when it was steepest and became most noticeable), especially with the Camry and Tundra.
07-06-10, 06:13 PM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
I wouldn't sell the present LS460/600 short, though. It may lack some of the solid materials of its predecessors, but, IMO, it is still a quality/refinement benchmark, and if I was personally spending that kind of money, I'd still choose it over any of its direct competitors.
07-06-10, 06:22 PM
#19
I think Lexus looks inward and develops better products. Similar to what Mercedes did after the Chrysler debacle.
Get the build quality back to what it was with the 1998-2003-ish products.
Get the build quality back to what it was with the 1998-2003-ish products.
07-06-10, 06:28 PM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
Can't necessarily blame M-B's quality problems on Chrysler.....they started in the mid-90's, before the company merged with Chrysler. Chrysler, of course, had been producing relatively poorly-built vehicles for decades.....and, with a few exceptions, still does.
07-06-10, 06:32 PM
#21
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
I think when I wrote luxury, I should have wrote "prestige" instead. I don't think that Lexus has the prestige amongst the rich that Lexus has. I feel Lexus is just as, if not more, luxurious actually than most MB or BMW.
I think the failures of Lexus since 2006 is the failure with any corporation. Each year the board needs to show to the shareholders increased growth year after year, and year after year they need to show "efficiencies." At some point theoretically, isn't a company at it's leanest and then once it tries to go beyond that, it then inherently has to cut corners?
So, instead of making 100% of the vehicles the initial quality that got them to just high regard, they then decide that to make it to #1 and keep shareholders happy, they build their vehicles at 80% the quality of before and hope that all goes well.
This is not a problem unique to Lexus, it has happened to Honda and Nissan, it's just happened in an inverse cycle with the Germans and Americans. I think that the Japanese 3 can turn it around, but how fast... that's the big if.
Mr. Toyoda better do more guiding than crying if he's to get Toyota/Lexus out of it's current situation.
I think the failures of Lexus since 2006 is the failure with any corporation. Each year the board needs to show to the shareholders increased growth year after year, and year after year they need to show "efficiencies." At some point theoretically, isn't a company at it's leanest and then once it tries to go beyond that, it then inherently has to cut corners?
So, instead of making 100% of the vehicles the initial quality that got them to just high regard, they then decide that to make it to #1 and keep shareholders happy, they build their vehicles at 80% the quality of before and hope that all goes well.
This is not a problem unique to Lexus, it has happened to Honda and Nissan, it's just happened in an inverse cycle with the Germans and Americans. I think that the Japanese 3 can turn it around, but how fast... that's the big if.
Mr. Toyoda better do more guiding than crying if he's to get Toyota/Lexus out of it's current situation.
07-06-10, 09:01 PM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
First off great thread.
Second I said in a couple of threads variously that Lexus has been #1 real/perceived in quality/reliability for so long it was only a matter of time they had problems. We are talking 20 years of being tops, no small feat for a technologically advanced luxury vehicle(s).
What we have seen is what we have discussed and what Toyota has acknowledged and Henry sums up pretty accurately. It also goes back to my thread about the eroding value/quality lead the Japanese had over the Germans. Today, I say to myself "well if Lexus is going to have problems, I might as well jump to Porsche". This is something I could not have said a few years ago (and Porsche quality has improved).
Lexus continues to sell on the perception they are the best in reliability and quality. The term "Lexus-Like" is used in most any industry in regards to luxury and quality. Lexus better really get a hold of all these issues fast.
I feel the 4GS is the vehicle that is going to put Lexus back on the build quality map. It will be the first, then the IS/ES/LS all will debut after. With changes in processes and management etc I feel the next Lexus sedan is going to be special.
We also have to remember Lexus has never been perfect. They have always had recalls and issues. They have them the least and usually do a fantastic job resolving them. They really solidify the Lexus covenant by the way they fix these issues.
My concern, a huge concern is one we are not talking much about. The Lexus corporate/Dealer relationship. It has to be hurting right now. For the past year dealers have suffered due to the economy and now all the recalls. They are not getting the lift in sales they could be getting due to the bad news. In regards to service, you have service managers and techs having to deal with thousands of recalled cars that need fixing. This can wear out techs and it isn't profitable to dealers (they make their money on service). So dealerships must be getting pretty pissed at all these continued recalls where they make no money. I hope they can maintain morale and see that this is just temporary and there is light at the end of the tunnel.
I am confident that Lexus will have learned valuable lessons here and will be better for it.
Second I said in a couple of threads variously that Lexus has been #1 real/perceived in quality/reliability for so long it was only a matter of time they had problems. We are talking 20 years of being tops, no small feat for a technologically advanced luxury vehicle(s).
What we have seen is what we have discussed and what Toyota has acknowledged and Henry sums up pretty accurately. It also goes back to my thread about the eroding value/quality lead the Japanese had over the Germans. Today, I say to myself "well if Lexus is going to have problems, I might as well jump to Porsche". This is something I could not have said a few years ago (and Porsche quality has improved).
Lexus continues to sell on the perception they are the best in reliability and quality. The term "Lexus-Like" is used in most any industry in regards to luxury and quality. Lexus better really get a hold of all these issues fast.
I feel the 4GS is the vehicle that is going to put Lexus back on the build quality map. It will be the first, then the IS/ES/LS all will debut after. With changes in processes and management etc I feel the next Lexus sedan is going to be special.
We also have to remember Lexus has never been perfect. They have always had recalls and issues. They have them the least and usually do a fantastic job resolving them. They really solidify the Lexus covenant by the way they fix these issues.
My concern, a huge concern is one we are not talking much about. The Lexus corporate/Dealer relationship. It has to be hurting right now. For the past year dealers have suffered due to the economy and now all the recalls. They are not getting the lift in sales they could be getting due to the bad news. In regards to service, you have service managers and techs having to deal with thousands of recalled cars that need fixing. This can wear out techs and it isn't profitable to dealers (they make their money on service). So dealerships must be getting pretty pissed at all these continued recalls where they make no money. I hope they can maintain morale and see that this is just temporary and there is light at the end of the tunnel.
I am confident that Lexus will have learned valuable lessons here and will be better for it.
07-06-10, 11:28 PM
#24
Lexus Fanatic
07-06-10, 11:47 PM
#25
I wouldn't sell the present LS460/600 short, though. It may lack some of the solid materials of its predecessors, but, IMO, it is still a quality/refinement benchmark, and if I was personally spending that kind of money, I'd still choose it over any of its direct competitors.
i take apart a lot of ls460/600, mainly on the dash area for all kind of installs. the fit and finish is no where close to what it was before on the ls430, which was simply superb. right now, i constantly see "different" finishes from one ls460 to another. sometimes the radio is a bit more inset on the left, sometimes on the right. navigation unit at the top is not flush with the dash / air vents. a lot of little things.
on the other hand, i am not saying the s class or 7 series are any better (personally i probably still think ls460 has the edge here). but in my eyes, better than mb and bmw doesn't make it the benchmark, when it's going backward compared to their past
I think when I wrote luxury, I should have wrote "prestige" instead. I don't think that Lexus has the prestige amongst the rich that Lexus has. I feel Lexus is just as, if not more, luxurious actually than most MB or BMW.
I think the failures of Lexus since 2006 is the failure with any corporation. Each year the board needs to show to the shareholders increased growth year after year, and year after year they need to show "efficiencies." At some point theoretically, isn't a company at it's leanest and then once it tries to go beyond that, it then inherently has to cut corners?
So, instead of making 100% of the vehicles the initial quality that got them to just high regard, they then decide that to make it to #1 and keep shareholders happy, they build their vehicles at 80% the quality of before and hope that all goes well.
This is not a problem unique to Lexus, it has happened to Honda and Nissan, it's just happened in an inverse cycle with the Germans and Americans. I think that the Japanese 3 can turn it around, but how fast... that's the big if.
Mr. Toyoda better do more guiding than crying if he's to get Toyota/Lexus out of it's current situation.
I think the failures of Lexus since 2006 is the failure with any corporation. Each year the board needs to show to the shareholders increased growth year after year, and year after year they need to show "efficiencies." At some point theoretically, isn't a company at it's leanest and then once it tries to go beyond that, it then inherently has to cut corners?
So, instead of making 100% of the vehicles the initial quality that got them to just high regard, they then decide that to make it to #1 and keep shareholders happy, they build their vehicles at 80% the quality of before and hope that all goes well.
This is not a problem unique to Lexus, it has happened to Honda and Nissan, it's just happened in an inverse cycle with the Germans and Americans. I think that the Japanese 3 can turn it around, but how fast... that's the big if.
Mr. Toyoda better do more guiding than crying if he's to get Toyota/Lexus out of it's current situation.
and yes, you are right. when a corporate suddenly deviate from the true philosophy and sort of blinded by profitability and size, it can be trouble...
07-07-10, 01:24 AM
#26
Lexus Test Driver
You guys are all forgetting one thing. It is human nature to always say "this generation isn't built as well as the last." Every car forum I have followed over the last twelve years has said the same thing. It's the , "they don't make em like they used to" syndrome that we always like to stab. I am sure in some cases with certain products, the saying is actually true. But I cannot agree with it regarding Lexus and Toyota. There are some things we cannot realize and appreciate until time has passed by. Then, when we are seperated from the product, we look back and like it more. Five years from now, mark my words, the 3IS enthusiasts are going to say the same thing about today's Lexus..."they don't build them like they did back in 2010."
Personally, I think the IS, GS, and ES are extremely well built cars that hit their mark well. Nearly every car gets a recall or two. I do not believe it's enough to change people's minds in a short period of time.
Personally, I think the IS, GS, and ES are extremely well built cars that hit their mark well. Nearly every car gets a recall or two. I do not believe it's enough to change people's minds in a short period of time.
07-07-10, 08:47 AM
#27
i personally disagree. while the first ls400 was built very very well, but as you read my posts, i have always said the ls430 was the best built lexus so far imho. from 1ls to 2ls to 3ls, it was constant improvement. i can't say the same for the 4ls at all (and fwiw, i never owned the ls430 but i did own the ls460l).
same thing for the gs. i think 1gs was ok, but 2gs was very solid (after 2001). 3gs, far from it. and i used to own gs400 and now gs350.
when lexus went from 1sc (very solid) car to 2sc (sc430), yes, it was a huge change, but you pretty much never hear one bad thing on the sc430 in terms of build quality. that again was an improvement.
reading the posts, my perception is when new generation cars come out, what happens a lot of time is current generation owners will say the new generation is not as good as what they own now.
same thing for the gs. i think 1gs was ok, but 2gs was very solid (after 2001). 3gs, far from it. and i used to own gs400 and now gs350.
when lexus went from 1sc (very solid) car to 2sc (sc430), yes, it was a huge change, but you pretty much never hear one bad thing on the sc430 in terms of build quality. that again was an improvement.
reading the posts, my perception is when new generation cars come out, what happens a lot of time is current generation owners will say the new generation is not as good as what they own now.
07-07-10, 09:19 AM
#28
Pole Position
In regards to service, you have service managers and techs having to deal with thousands of recalled cars that need fixing. This can wear out techs and it isn't profitable to dealers (they make their money on service). So dealerships must be getting pretty pissed at all these continued recalls where they make no money.
In the long run, Lexus will need to raise the bar once again. They've done it for so long, they'll do it again, they certainly have the resources. The competition is getting very stiff. Everybody has been stepping up their game. When you're already the best, it becomes harder.
07-07-10, 09:57 AM
#29
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Nearly every car gets a recall or two.
07-07-10, 10:18 AM
#30
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
your earlier post tends to say reality, but i agree that perception is a part of it too.on your last post there though, it varies by brand. there is no question that ford's latest interiors and overall feature set is worlds better than a few years ago. the interior of the new taurus is really very nice for example.