Car Chat General discussion about Lexus, other auto manufacturers and automotive news.

(updated) NHTSA: No evidence of Toyota electronics problems

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 07-13-10, 11:58 AM
  #1  
Joeb427
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Joeb427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SC
Posts: 11,670
Received 17 Likes on 16 Posts
Exclamation (updated) NHTSA: No evidence of Toyota electronics problems

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...=djemalertNEWS

Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents
By MIKE RAMSEY And KATE LINEBAUGH
JULY 13, 2010, 6:11 P.M. ET

The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that at the time of the crashes, throttles were wide open and the brakes were not engaged, people familiar with the findings said.

The results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyota and Lexus vehicles surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes. But the findings don't exonerate Toyota from two known issues blamed for sudden acceleration in its vehicles: sticky accelerator pedals and floor mats that can trap accelerator pedals to the floor.

The findings by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration involve a sample of reports in which a driver of a Toyota vehicle said the brakes were depressed but failed to stop the car from accelerating and ultimately crashing.

A NHTSA spokeswoman declined to confirm the findings.

The data recorders analyzed by NHTSA were selected by the agency, not Toyota, based on complaints the drivers had filed with the government.

The findings are consistent with a 1989 government-sponsored study that blamed similar driver mistakes for a rash of sudden-acceleration reports involving Audi 5000 sedans.

The Toyota findings, which haven't been released by NHTSA, support Toyota's position that sudden-acceleration reports involving its vehicles weren't caused by electronic glitches in computer-controlled throttle systems, as some safety advocates and plaintiffs' attorneys have alleged. More than 100 people have sued the auto maker claiming crashes were the result of faulty electronics.

NHTSA has received more than 3,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyotas, including some dating to early last decade, according to a report the agency compiled in March. The incidents include 75 fatal crashes involving 93 deaths.

However, NHTSA has been able to verify only one of those fatal crashes was caused by a problem with the vehicle, according to information the agency provided to the National Academy of Sciences. That accident last Aug. 28, which killed a California highway patrolman and three passengers in a Lexus, was traced to a floor mat that trapped the gas pedal in the depressed position.

Toyota has recalled more than eight million cars globally to fix floor mats and sticky accelerators.

The NHTSA spokeswman said the agency was continuing to investigate the Toyota accidents and wouldn't be prepared to comment fully on the probe until a broader study is completed in conjunction with NASA, which is expected to take months.

Transportation Department officials, however, have said publicly that they have yet to find any electronic problems in Toyota cars.

Daniel Smith, NHTSA's associate administrator for enforcement, told a panel of the National Academy of Sciences last month that the agency's sudden-acceleration probe had yet to find any car defects beyond those identified by the company: pedals entrapped by floor mats, and "sticky" accelerator pedals that are slow to return to idle.

"In spite of our investigations, we have not actually been able yet to find a defect" in electronic throttle-control systems, Mr. Smith told the scientific panel, which is looking into potential causes of sudden acceleration.

"We're bound and determined that if it exists we're going to find it," he added. "But as yet, we haven't found it."

Toyota officials haven't been briefed on NHTSA's findings, but they corroborate its own tests, said Mike Michels, the chief spokesman for Toyota Motor Sales. Toyota's downloads of event data recorders have found evidence of sticky pedals and pedal entrapment as well as driver error, which is characterized by no evidence of the brakes being depressed during an impact.

Some company officials say they are informally aware of the NHTSA results. But Toyota President Akio Toyoda has said the company won't blame customers for its problems as part of its public-relations response.

Toyota is still trying to repair damage to its reputation caused as much by disclosures that the company hid knowledge of safety problems with its vehicles as by the reports of sudden acceleration.

NHTSA levied a $16.4 million fine against Toyota earlier this year for failing to notify the agency in a timely manner about its sticky-accelerator issue. Toyota's handling of a rash of safety complaints involving high-profile models such as the hybrid Toyota Prius has prompted Congress to consider a far-reaching overhaul of U.S. auto-safety laws.

Last week, Toyota announced it had taken steps to improve its vehicle quality, including moving 1,000 engineers into a new group that will try to pin down problems. The Japanese auto maker also will extend development times by at least four weeks on new models to do more testing and will cut down on the use of contract engineers.Toyota showed reporters the inner workings of its labs, including how it has been testing its electronic throttle control module to find any malfunctions. The system is controlled by a main computer and has a second computer as a backup if the first fails. In either instance, failures should be noted in the car's main computer and result in engine power being cut.

The car maker also has tested its vehicles' responses to strong electromagnetic radiation, such as the waves generated by cellphones and radio towers, which some critics have said could be causing a malfunction. The only interference engineers have encountered after bombarding cars with electromagnetic waves is static on the car radio.

U.S. Reps. Bart Stupak (D., Mich.) and Henry Waxman (D., Calif.) have been critical of Toyota's efforts to track down alternative causes of unintended acceleration. They have said Toyota has been slow to react or evasive. Toyota has said it is doing everything in its power to respond to both Congress and customer complaints.

Last edited by encore888; 07-13-10 at 03:24 PM. Reason: add text
Joeb427 is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 12:13 PM
  #2  
Orzel
Lead Lap
iTrader: (1)
 
Orzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Washington
Posts: 722
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

I've been waiting for this to show up - now, what do you bet that the MSM won't touch it. They have too much invested in piling on Toyota to have to back track and admit they were wrong. The only way the infromation will get out is through the net, and web sites like this one.
Orzel is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 12:36 PM
  #3  
jason60050
Driver
 
jason60050's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: IL
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Its about time...people just don;t know how to drive!
jason60050 is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 12:39 PM
  #4  
Joeb427
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Joeb427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SC
Posts: 11,670
Received 17 Likes on 16 Posts
Default

The Toyota haters still won't believe the report.Even if they somehow see it.
Joeb427 is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 12:39 PM
  #5  
GS69
Lead Lap
 
GS69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NC
Posts: 4,238
Received 10 Likes on 8 Posts
Arrow Story is Getting Around


Despite ominous news reports of cars careening out of control, there's no substitute for data. And now it looks like many reported cases of so-called "sudden acceleration" in Toyotas are actually due to driver error.

That's the preliminary conclusion coming from investigators at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) who analyzed dozens of event-data recorders, or "black boxes," from Toyota models that had crashed.

Black box: Acceleration, not braking

The recorders showed that despite drivers' claims that they were pressing the brakes as hard as they could, in fact the accelerators were floored and the brakes were never applied.

That is exactly what happened in the March crash of a 2005 Toyota Prius in the New York City suburb of Harrison, N.Y. There, a 56-year-old housekeeper swore she was braking as hard as she could when the car raced across a busy road, slamming into a stone wall.

In that case, the NHTSA statement all but used the words driver error, saying that the car's onboard computer systems "indicated there was no application of the brakes, and the throttle was fully open."

We've seen this before

The latest conclusions, reported by the Wall Street Journal but not officially confirmed by the agency, involved data recorders selected at random by the agency, not Toyota [NYSE:TM].

The NHTSA has not yet issued a formal statement, saying it will wait to complete a longer study before commenting. But the conclusions are not unexpected among auto-safety experts. Few believe that "sudden acceleration" in the Prius or any other car is possible.

Back in 1989, the agency concluded that drivers were also at fault in so-called "sudden acceleration" cases involving Audi 5000 sedans. That was three years after a notorious documentary.

Misfiring neurons

But how can a driver believe she is braking when in fact she has the accelerator floored? The University of California-Los Angeles professor Richard Schmidt, who teaches psychology, writes, "The trouble, unbelievable as it may seem, is that [it] is very often caused by drivers who press the gas pedal when they intend to press the brake."

The culprit is "noisy neuromuscular processes," in which a limb does something slightly different from what the brain has asked it to do. In this case, the driver's foot may extend at a different angle than the body expects.

Compounding the problem


Panic then exacerbates the situation, with drivers pressing even harder on their "brake" pedals. Which of course keeps the accelerator floored and often leads to a crash.

That said, a handful of cases may have been due to oversize or improperly fitted floor mats in Toyota and Lexus vehicles. The company is now working through millions of vehicles to shorten and modify their accelerator pedals to alleviate the potential for such a problem.

That was the conclusion of the investigation into a notorious crash last August, in which a California Highway Patrol officer and three other passengers were killed when their Lexus accelerated out of control, crashed, flipped over, and burned.

That case is the only one out of more than 3,000 complaints in which the NHTSA has concluded the vehicle was at fault.
GS69 is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 12:45 PM
  #6  
Vh_Supra26
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
 
Vh_Supra26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: LA
Posts: 5,037
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default WSJ says crash data points to pedal misapplication in Toyota sudden acceleration case



After receiving more than 3,000 reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles, the U.S. Department of Transportation has concluded that driver error was actually at fault. According to The Wall Street Journal, investigators analyzing different data recorders from Toyota vehicles found that at the time of these sudden acceleration crashes, the throttles were wide open rather and the brakes were not depressed. Thus, they have reason to believe that drivers were mistakenly stomping on the accelerator rather than slamming the brakes in an attempt to avoid these crashes.

Of the 75 fatal crashes blamed on sudden acceleration, only one incident has actually been verified as being caused by vehicle fault – the Lexus ES350 accident that killed a California highway patrolman and three other passengers last August. Even so, this case was chalked up as an incident where the floor mat trapped the gas pedal, which Toyota quickly issued a recall for.

The WSJ also reports that U.S. Transportation Department officials have stated publicly that they have yet to find any electronic glitches in Toyota vehicles that could lead to these crashes. The only defects proven to be true are those that have been outlined by Toyota itself – floor mats and sticky accelerator pedals that are slow to return to idle.

So while Toyota may not have been at fault in these sudden acceleration cases, the automaker's image has indeed been seriously tarnished over the past few months. Over eight million Toyota vehicles have been recalled worldwide – a large blemish in automotive history, and it appears that much of the hand-wringing may have been for naught. Thanks to everyone for the tips!
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/13/b...pplication-in/
Vh_Supra26 is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 12:49 PM
  #7  
LexFather
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

After receiving more than 3,000 reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles, the U.S. Department of Transportation has concluded that driver error was actually at fault.
What many of us have said. Will have a beer now
 
Old 07-13-10, 12:55 PM
  #8  
IS350jet
Pole Position
 
IS350jet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Coral Springs, Fl
Posts: 2,882
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by Wall Street Journal

That was the conclusion of the investigation into a notorious crash last August, in which a California Highway Patrol officer and three other passengers were killed when their Lexus accelerated out of control, crashed, flipped over, and burned.

That case is the only one out of more than 3,000 complaints in which the NHTSA has concluded the vehicle was at fault.
I love this quote. Almost makes me want to say "told you so!"
IS350jet is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 12:59 PM
  #9  
LexFather
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

And notice the only case involves a cop...b/c they can't be wrong....sigh.....

So Toyota did this expensive, huge recall for nothing huh.....and the entire industry recalling like nuts as well.

Well even so, I'm glad Toyota got shaken up and they are going to get back to quality.
 
Old 07-13-10, 01:32 PM
  #10  
PhilipMSPT
Cycle Savant
iTrader: (5)
 
PhilipMSPT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In rehab...
Posts: 21,527
Received 6 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

I betcha' this won't make headlines in major news sources.

Sensationalism, hysteria, and fear-mongering are news-worthy. Apologies are not...
PhilipMSPT is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 01:34 PM
  #11  
rominl
exclusive matchup

iTrader: (4)
 
rominl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Lovely OC
Posts: 81,671
Received 190 Likes on 148 Posts
Default

and i still believe that chp case was coz' of the floormats?

i have never bought into the pedal recall, always think it's bunch of bs and even more people trying to "make money" with this opportunity. but i agree with mike, nonetheless it's a "good" thing for toyota to realize the importance of quality. after all they did announce a recall on the pedal that can possibly get stuck (not saying it's related to any of the claims posted)
rominl is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 01:38 PM
  #12  
4TehNguyen
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
 
4TehNguyen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 26,052
Received 51 Likes on 46 Posts
Default

1989 called they want their Audi 5000 back

it was already ruled that the CHP crash was due to improperly installed and incorrect floormats for that vehicle. Dealer's fault, not due to a design defect.
4TehNguyen is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 01:44 PM
  #13  
IS-SV
Lexus Fanatic
 
IS-SV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: tech capital
Posts: 14,100
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

As expected. Maybe we will see some small headlines buried in newspapers and magazines.
IS-SV is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 01:55 PM
  #14  
I8ABMR
Lexus Fanatic
 
I8ABMR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Waiting for next track day
Posts: 22,608
Received 102 Likes on 67 Posts
Default

I wonder how they will announce this news. They need to get the news involved
I8ABMR is offline  
Old 07-13-10, 01:57 PM
  #15  
mikemareen
Lexus Test Driver
 
mikemareen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: southern cali, san gabriel valley
Posts: 1,402
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

IMO toyota has been getting unfairly blamed for this whole mess for far too long.

I don't think a republican administration would have stepped in this deep as did the current obama admin.
mikemareen is offline  


Quick Reply: (updated) NHTSA: No evidence of Toyota electronics problems



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:22 PM.