mmarshall

Not really. The "invoice" is not necesarily the true dealer cost from the manufacturer. A number of other factors are involved, including holdback fees and manufacturer-to-dealer payments that are often not known or publicized. Determining the dealer's TRUE cost can be very difficult....and, from the buyers' position, often doesn't have much bearing on the out-the-door price.

So, in a nutshell, you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure out every last dollar on the wholesale-equation. Usually, the best and most sensible thing is to just negotiate the best deal (and out-the-door figure) you can....and don't go home and lose sleep over it.

Fizzboy7

True about the other hidden things. But invoice price is a great starting point and easy to research online. A little further digging on manufacturer rebates and even holdback can lead to a great deal with much savings. The smarter and more educated a customer is, the better the chances he comes out ahead.

malujerry

iTrader: (7)

imo, $65k otd is way too high. just go to edmunds.com and get the TMV, you should be within few hundreds of that estimate before TT&L.

fyi,i got my ISF "at invoice" plus TTL for $50k OTD with every option except the radar thingy, but there was a $5k rebate at that time. sticker was $62, edmund's invoice was $54, minus the $5k, made it $49 - plus TT&L.

so if that dealer does not come close to $55 OTD, i would say try my dealer in jersey, ask for gene moretti at 888-231-7460. you can use my name -jerry jacob (white ISF) and tell him you'll pay only the invoice. another member on CL did and payed the same amount I did back then.

ferdinan

Tofu, have you considered checking other dealers within a certain mile radius? I see there are 78 IS-Fs nationwide. Dealers want to move the cars, the 2011s are just around the corner and only two days left before the month ends. As some of the members said, the out the door price is high. When I was looking for a car last week some Lexus dealers were willing to negotiate on the IS-Fs they had on the lot.

I am sure if you make some phone calls you might find the right car for the right price.

As rominl said, go test drive both cars. They are both excellent machines. I think it all comes down to personal preference. Good luck!!

tofu_house

iTrader: (2)

hey guys, thank you all for your input and help.

sorry i haven't responded. i've been busy and haven't had the chance to look through all of the replies.

i'll definitely be looking at both the cars thoroughly before the purchase (int/ext, testdrive) before i make my decision. i had the chance to look at the interior of my friend's e92 m3 (sedan) this afternoon and i definitely see what you guys mean when you say the F's interior is significantly better.

thank you all for your input. i'll update you guys when i make my decision and possible purchase.

OC 335d

M3 reliability issues?

Also, if you have a M3 with EDC it is NOT stiff at all. It actually rides better than the 335i with sport package. Stop saying the M3 is on the stiff side, it is not always the case.

I prefer the M3 interior but I do too find it a bit lacking on the torque side, but this is coming from a 335i. The new Navi in the M3 beats the IS-F handily. Also the Ipod controls are much better as well. The IS-F also does not come with fold down rear seats, this can be a deal breaker for many. M3 has much more space and configurable options.

CDNROCKIES

What's the question?

There are multiple threads on every BMW forum that talk about issues with the M3. There is zero argument that the M3 is less reliable than the F.

I'd agree that the M3 ride is not that harsh.

It is laughable to suggest that the M3 interior is better in any way. Unless you are looking at "owners choice" with the custom options for the additional $5K it isn't close.

The new Navi in the M3 does not in any way beat the Lexus Navi. The Lexus navigation is still much better in my '08 F than my '10 X5. The new Idrive, overall, is better than the Lexus touchscreen system because the F is so limited by all of the ghey nannies.

Agreed, that the Ipod controls are better and that the lack of fold down rear seats is a mistake. The M3 certainly does not have "much more space".

The M3 has many more configurable options but it is also significantly overpriced for the marginal handling advantage that it carries.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

as much as i like the m3 i can't say the nav is better than that in lexus at all, far from. even the improved 09+ setup is still nothing like the lexus setup, from features to details and usage. if anything, you can use the nav on bmw when driving i will give you that.

OC 335d

Sorry I like the styling better. I didn't say it is better, I said I LIKED IT BETTER. Pretty subjective, don't you think? I love the seats, the novillo leather, the gauge cluster, how clean and simple everything is. I also prefer the BMW Sport seats as they support me much better. The Lexus seats are rather large, I don't like the way they hold you, however the leather is very soft. The Novillo leather is quite an improvement over the standard BMW leather though.

Why is my personal opinion laughable? I don't like the shape of the Lexus Dash on the driver's side. It's a huge blank area. I don't like the center console, it is too busy. The buttons are too huge. It's not clean and simple to me. Some people think BMW looks too old and simple, some like how it's simple. Just like I think the Lexus is too busy and buttons are too huge.



I like BMW's amber lights (reminds me of a Type R tbh).



^ Oh yes, and RED can be sexy.

see wallpaper sizes here:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55139

So the Navi isn't better but the new I-Drive is much better?

I like how you can search the POI names by the many categories. I like how you can choose route list. I like the 3D views. I like the satellite imagery. Perhaps I don't know how to use the Navi properly, how do you switch back and forth between a list of your ENTIRE route list (route information in bmw) in the Lexus?

I get plenty of seat time in our IS250 but I can't figure that out. Can you point me how to do this? Does this exist? Basically a turn by turn list on the Navi. Where you can review the route while driving or before driving.

Oh yes, I also love how I can go to google maps and send the directions right to my car. That feature is awesome. Also, real time traffic, it wasn't available on our IS when we bought it (2008) and it's only available now on XM enabled systems, correct?

Please elaborate on why you believe the IS Navi is better than the BMW rather than saying it is just better. The few friends I have with both Lexus and BMW agree that BMW's Navi system is better. My fiance being one of them. And Rominl, Steve Noh being another one (you know him he has a RX and had an E92 335i).

The M3 certainly does have much more space. Rear head room? Rear leg room. We own both the IS250 and an E90 335i (which is pretty much the same space). I have plenty of seat time in an E90 M3 as well.

OC 335d

Please elaborate on the features, details, and usage as I do not see how the Lexus system is better when comparing our IS to my 335D. For the record, I owned a 335i for 3 years, and now am on an 2010 335D (improved I-Drive).

The Lexus is an IS250 that I have probably driven for more than 10,000 miles, since 2007.

OC 335d

^ oh yes, and I LOVE the amber lighting, especially the accent lighting underneath door lighting on the E92 interiors. Rominl can comment on that I'm sure.



(I need to find a pic on how it looks while sitting in the car)

STIG

This is getting way off topic but I feel like I am somewhat qualified to chime in here.

both navi system are garbage compare to the google map on my Driod. searching for something on I-drive is just plain painful, and I can never ever find what I want. In fact, I don't remember using the navigation at all. I usually end up giving up before I can ever find something.

Our LS has lexus link or whatever feature that they can push the address in. Kinda cool but haven't used that for a while either.

STIG

It is overpriced but it has 6 speed stick that you lazy folks with flappy box wont understand. joy of shifting and getting pissed off in the heavy traffic...ah heaven.

mmarshall

I wasn't discussing reliability issues in this thread.


Whether it is ALWAYS the case or not remains to be seen....I can't comment on that. It was DEFINITELY the case in the extended-length test drives I did of both models. The M3's ride is fine on glass-smooth pavement, but hit some bumps and you'll know it....and much more so with the IS-F. The M3 does outhandle the 335's Sport Package, even on the street, but the difference would probably be more noticeable on a track (which I admittedly did not have access to) than it was on the street. So, for everyday driving, IMO, it's still the 335....I'm not going to change my mind on that.


The M3 powerplant is definitely higher revs (8000 RPM redline on my test car) and HP, but the 335i beats it in everyday-driving, low-RPM torque. That is one of the main reasons I would prefer it if I was getting a BMW.

Back to the IS-F (thread topic). Your comment about the non-folding rear seats is well-taken......but that is (probably) done to increase the stiffness of the rear unibody frame. The non-folding seats allow a metal crossbrace in that area to resist torsional (twisting) of the frame. However, I question how much that extra stiffness is really needed, since the rear suspension in the IS-F, even independent of the unibody frame, is already noticeably stiffer than the M3 (which is saying something). The word from Lexus (see the earlier posts) is that the next IS-F, from owner complaints, will ease up on that suspension stiffness a little.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Folding rear seats suck for noise insulation. I doubt very much that many people use this feature in their M3's anyway - if you can afford an M3, you can afford to have an SUV as your second vehicle.