GM mid sized sedans to only be offered with 4 cylinders
09-02-10, 08:05 AM
#76
I'm kind of surprised that IS350jet is "laughing" so much...don't you work for Lexus?
I have seen/experienced/driven plenty of LS 460s, 3GS GS 430s, GS 460s, and even ISFs that can hit or better 30MPG on the highway. The ISF I drove was getting 31MPG @ 70mph...not shabby for a high performance V8 with 417hp. I have been in an LS getting 33mpg at the same speed, and seen several others do the same.
No, that's not downhill either. Drive the car at 65-70mph on the highway and you're virtually guaranteed to get those numbers.
I have seen/experienced/driven plenty of LS 460s, 3GS GS 430s, GS 460s, and even ISFs that can hit or better 30MPG on the highway. The ISF I drove was getting 31MPG @ 70mph...not shabby for a high performance V8 with 417hp. I have been in an LS getting 33mpg at the same speed, and seen several others do the same.
No, that's not downhill either. Drive the car at 65-70mph on the highway and you're virtually guaranteed to get those numbers.
09-02-10, 08:34 AM
#77
Lexus Champion
65 MPH isn't really a typical road trip speed. Most highways have a 65 or 70mph speed limit and most people seem to do 10 over that. In my area they're all 70 so if you do 65 and everyone else is doing 80, it's almost dangerous.
Are you guys looking at instant economy numbers or doing the real calculations at the pump?
Every Lexus and Toyota vehicle I've ever owned or been in on a road trip that we've done the real 'pump math' has shown to be at LEAST 10% optimistic. Sometimes up to 15%. It says 30 mpg average and we actually got 27.
My Audi, BMW and Saturn have all been pretty spot on but our 4runner, my parent's camry, etc have all been quick to tell a white lie about how much fuel they're burning.
Are you guys looking at instant economy numbers or doing the real calculations at the pump?
Every Lexus and Toyota vehicle I've ever owned or been in on a road trip that we've done the real 'pump math' has shown to be at LEAST 10% optimistic. Sometimes up to 15%. It says 30 mpg average and we actually got 27.
My Audi, BMW and Saturn have all been pretty spot on but our 4runner, my parent's camry, etc have all been quick to tell a white lie about how much fuel they're burning.
09-02-10, 08:34 AM
#78
Guest
Posts: n/a
I agree with Och/MPLexus And a lot of it has to do with Lexus adding more gears which helps achiever better fuel economy as RPMs are low at higher speeds. We have seen the most of the industry move to more gears as well.
Your point stands that it does depend on your speed, weight (luggage/people) and other factors. We all know we will get much better MPG going 55-65 MPH then 85 MPH.
Which goes to my point that I just averaged right over 30 MPG on a recent trip in a 4100lbs V-6 hybrid with all the amenities. Thus 4 cylinders need to really get a substantial gain for me to even think about one.
When we had an 07 Altima, MPG was great for the 4 on the highway, around the city no better than my car.
65 MPH isn't really a typical road trip speed. Most highways have a 65 or 70mph speed limit and most people seem to do 10 over that. In my area they're all 70 so if you do 65 and everyone else is doing 80, it's almost dangerous.
Are you guys looking at instant economy numbers or doing the real calculations at the pump?
Every Lexus and Toyota vehicle I've ever owned or been in on a road trip that we've done the real 'pump math' has shown to be at LEAST 10% optimistic. Sometimes up to 15%. It says 30 mpg average and we actually got 27.
My Audi, BMW and Saturn have all been pretty spot on but our 4runner, my parent's camry, etc have all been quick to tell a white lie about how much fuel they're burning.
Are you guys looking at instant economy numbers or doing the real calculations at the pump?
Every Lexus and Toyota vehicle I've ever owned or been in on a road trip that we've done the real 'pump math' has shown to be at LEAST 10% optimistic. Sometimes up to 15%. It says 30 mpg average and we actually got 27.
My Audi, BMW and Saturn have all been pretty spot on but our 4runner, my parent's camry, etc have all been quick to tell a white lie about how much fuel they're burning.
Which goes to my point that I just averaged right over 30 MPG on a recent trip in a 4100lbs V-6 hybrid with all the amenities. Thus 4 cylinders need to really get a substantial gain for me to even think about one.
When we had an 07 Altima, MPG was great for the 4 on the highway, around the city no better than my car.
Last edited by LexFather; 09-02-10 at 08:38 AM.
09-02-10, 09:40 AM
#79
Trexx, even my old GS430 consistently gets 28-32mpg on highway, and yes, thats true pump calculation, not an optimistic display. I'm surprised your GS400 did so poorly, even my old LS400, which was used and abused, did consistent 25mpg highway.
And its not just Lexus V8 sedans that get great highway mileage. Last long trip that I did, was in a 745 going from Brooklyn to NJ motor sports park and back. I filled up before I left Brooklyn, and when I came back the car had well more than half a tank left. Thats 260 miles on 7-8 gallons, and most of the way I was doing 75, sometimes as high as 90. And don't forget that is a very heavy car. If it had a small four cylinder engine, it would probably have burned way more fuel.
And its not just Lexus V8 sedans that get great highway mileage. Last long trip that I did, was in a 745 going from Brooklyn to NJ motor sports park and back. I filled up before I left Brooklyn, and when I came back the car had well more than half a tank left. Thats 260 miles on 7-8 gallons, and most of the way I was doing 75, sometimes as high as 90. And don't forget that is a very heavy car. If it had a small four cylinder engine, it would probably have burned way more fuel.
09-02-10, 09:43 AM
#80
Lexus Champion
Which goes to my point that I just averaged right over 30 MPG on a recent trip in a 4100lbs V-6 hybrid with all the amenities. Thus 4 cylinders need to really get a substantial gain for me to even think about one.
When we had an 07 Altima, MPG was great for the 4 on the highway, around the city no better than my car.
When we had an 07 Altima, MPG was great for the 4 on the highway, around the city no better than my car.
However a hybrid V6 powertrain is significantly more expensive to produce than a naturally aspirated or even turbocharged 4 cylinder powertrain.
So while the power to (city) fuel economy benefit of a car such as your GS450h is superior to what any 4-cyl or 4-cyl turbo can produce... the price tag is a significant issue. Let's say that a hybrid V6 such as in your car costs 5 grand more to produce than a 4-cylinder with all necessary additions considered.
Tack 5 grand on to the price of a 50k dollar GS... no big deal. The average GS consumer can swallow that. They're already shopping in the arena of excess, so a little more excess is no big deal.
The typical Malibu shopper is shopping in the 15 to 25k dollar range. 5 grand is a BIG deal, even if it's going to give them near V8 power, V6 highway economy and 4 cylinder city economy. The weight increase is also not insignificant.
I honestly believe GM is headed in a VERY good direction with all of this. I think ultimately they're going to take all of their vehicles in the same direction as the Volt. The car will be powered by electric motors only and the motor will be a generator. In that scenario a V6 is completely useless and would only serve to weigh down the car.
GM's Volt powertrain concept has a TON of future potential for reasons I won't get into right now... and I think may be why they see 4 cylinders as the future.
09-02-10, 09:52 AM
#81
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Took long enough, though. I can remember vividly (and I'm sure you probably can) the Chevy Vega four-cylinder warping its aluminum block and cast-iron cylinder liners from overheating, the Pontiac-sourced 2.5L Iron Duke four that sounded and revved like a washing-machine, and the Quad-Four that clattered almost like a diesel. The Aura/Malibu four was, at least, a decent attempt.
09-02-10, 09:54 AM
#82
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Posts: n/a
Well, in the city is where hybrid powertrains really shine... so that makes sense when comparing to the Altima.
However a hybrid V6 powertrain is significantly more expensive to produce than a naturally aspirated or even turbocharged 4 cylinder powertrain.
So while the power to (city) fuel economy benefit of a car such as your GS450h is superior to what any 4-cyl or 4-cyl turbo can produce... the price tag is a significant issue. Let's say that a hybrid V6 such as in your car costs 5 grand more to produce than a 4-cylinder with all necessary additions considered.
Tack 5 grand on to the price of a 50k dollar GS... no big deal. The average GS consumer can swallow that. They're already shopping in the arena of excess, so a little more excess is no big deal.
The typical Malibu shopper is shopping in the 15 to 25k dollar range. 5 grand is a BIG deal, even if it's going to give them near V8 power, V6 highway economy and 4 cylinder city economy. The weight increase is also not insignificant.
I honestly believe GM is headed in a VERY good direction with all of this. I think ultimately they're going to take all of their vehicles in the same direction as the Volt. The car will be powered by electric motors only and the motor will be a generator. In that scenario a V6 is completely useless and would only serve to weigh down the car.
GM's Volt powertrain concept has a TON of future potential for reasons I won't get into right now... and I think may be why they see 4 cylinders as the future.
However a hybrid V6 powertrain is significantly more expensive to produce than a naturally aspirated or even turbocharged 4 cylinder powertrain.
So while the power to (city) fuel economy benefit of a car such as your GS450h is superior to what any 4-cyl or 4-cyl turbo can produce... the price tag is a significant issue. Let's say that a hybrid V6 such as in your car costs 5 grand more to produce than a 4-cylinder with all necessary additions considered.
Tack 5 grand on to the price of a 50k dollar GS... no big deal. The average GS consumer can swallow that. They're already shopping in the arena of excess, so a little more excess is no big deal.
The typical Malibu shopper is shopping in the 15 to 25k dollar range. 5 grand is a BIG deal, even if it's going to give them near V8 power, V6 highway economy and 4 cylinder city economy. The weight increase is also not insignificant.
I honestly believe GM is headed in a VERY good direction with all of this. I think ultimately they're going to take all of their vehicles in the same direction as the Volt. The car will be powered by electric motors only and the motor will be a generator. In that scenario a V6 is completely useless and would only serve to weigh down the car.
GM's Volt powertrain concept has a TON of future potential for reasons I won't get into right now... and I think may be why they see 4 cylinders as the future.
That is my point. Dont settle, try harder.
09-02-10, 10:32 AM
#83
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id highly reccomend anyone who has a gas guzzling 8 cyl or even a inefficent 6 cyl to sell their cars asap!
the value to these vehicles will be dropping very fast in the near future.
the value to these vehicles will be dropping very fast in the near future.
09-02-10, 10:45 AM
#84
Pole Position
I'm kind of surprised that IS350jet is "laughing" so much...don't you work for Lexus?
I have seen/experienced/driven plenty of LS 460s, 3GS GS 430s, GS 460s, and even ISFs that can hit or better 30MPG on the highway. The ISF I drove was getting 31MPG @ 70mph...not shabby for a high performance V8 with 417hp. I have been in an LS getting 33mpg at the same speed, and seen several others do the same.
No, that's not downhill either. Drive the car at 65-70mph on the highway and you're virtually guaranteed to get those numbers.
I have seen/experienced/driven plenty of LS 460s, 3GS GS 430s, GS 460s, and even ISFs that can hit or better 30MPG on the highway. The ISF I drove was getting 31MPG @ 70mph...not shabby for a high performance V8 with 417hp. I have been in an LS getting 33mpg at the same speed, and seen several others do the same.
No, that's not downhill either. Drive the car at 65-70mph on the highway and you're virtually guaranteed to get those numbers.
It just seems that the point he was trying to make was that V8's were more fuel efficient that 4 or 6 cylinder powered cars. I kind of see where he was headed but I disagree, here. His point is clear in that if you yanked out the V6 in a ES350 or the 4 banger in the Camry, and stuffed them with the 4.6 from the LS, both cars would get better hwy mileage than with their original engines. That, I don't agree with. To the argument as to weather a FI 4 will get better mileage than a NA 6, I think generally speaking, on average, yes.
09-02-10, 11:06 AM
#85
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Actually as v8s and even some powerful 6 cylinders start disappearing from lineups or becoming really expensive options in greater frequency due to looming CAFE regulations the demand and price for used v8 and 6 cylinder cars could actually go up and even skyrocket particularly in the USA. US buyers still want power and most buyers do not care for hybrid vehicles, want hybrid powertrains over v8s/v6s, or want just 4 cylinders to choose from. If those buyers can't get what they want from a brand new car anymore they may look more to used cars that have it and willing to pay extra to get it.
09-02-10, 12:06 PM
#86
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Actually as v8s and even some powerful 6 cylinders start disappearing from lineups or becoming really expensive options in greater frequency due to looming CAFE regulations the demand and price for used v8 and 6 cylinder cars could actually go up and even skyrocket particularly in the USA. US buyers still want power and most buyers do not care for hybrid vehicles, want hybrid powertrains over v8s/v6s, or want just 4 cylinders to choose from. If those buyers can't get what they want from a brand new car anymore they may look more to used cars that have it and willing to pay extra to get it.
V-8s and bigger are going NOWHERE. BMW has turbo V-8s, Benz huge V-8s, Lexus has what 3 or 4 V-8s, Audi etc etc. Small efficient cars with 4 cylinders, in this case GM, help GM sell huge V-8 CTS-Vs and Vettes.
09-02-10, 01:31 PM
#87
Lexus Champion
Honestly I would bet money that if you take a tally of how many cars are sold in 2010 with V8s, turbocharged V6s, and hybrid V6s or greater (basically 8 cylinders or greater if you count turbo or hybrid as 2 cylinders)... you will see less than 1/3 that many sold in 2020. You can mark my words on that and bump this thread up in 10 years to see if I'm right.
What I'm trying to say is I think that they WILL be going to a hybrid 4-cylinder setup very soon. Except unlike Toyota's hybrid system where both electric motor and gasoline motor work in conjunction to power the car, the car will run entirely on electricity and have a gasoline generator. I'm not sure that's really a hybrid in the traditional sense.
But basically like the Volt.
It's amazing how cheap, light and easy it is to make really powerful electric motors though. The question about 4-cylinder, 6-cylinder, 8-cylinder, turbo or no turbo, supplementary electric motor or not, etc may all be completely moot with just one single electric drivetrain put in place. Then the motor just becomes a generator and nothing else, at which point efficiency is all that matters, so 4-cylinders (maybe even 3 cylinders?) will be all that we will ever see.
And those are good points. I would like to see maybe a hybrid 4 then offered with these new fours. Unless they are going to push people into maybe a new V-6 only Impala or so why lose that buyers (even if its 10-15%)? People still like V-6s in mid size sedans.
That is my point. Dont settle, try harder.
That is my point. Dont settle, try harder.
But basically like the Volt.
It's amazing how cheap, light and easy it is to make really powerful electric motors though. The question about 4-cylinder, 6-cylinder, 8-cylinder, turbo or no turbo, supplementary electric motor or not, etc may all be completely moot with just one single electric drivetrain put in place. Then the motor just becomes a generator and nothing else, at which point efficiency is all that matters, so 4-cylinders (maybe even 3 cylinders?) will be all that we will ever see.
09-02-10, 01:49 PM
#88
Pole Position
Honestly I would bet money that if you take a tally of how many cars are sold in 2010 with V8s, turbocharged V6s, and hybrid V6s or greater (basically 8 cylinders or greater if you count turbo or hybrid as 2 cylinders)... you will see less than 1/3 that many sold in 2020. You can mark my words on that and bump this thread up in 10 years to see if I'm right.
09-02-10, 02:07 PM
#89
Lexus Fanatic
Looking at the progress in the last 20 years with automotive power/fuel-efficiency/safety/reliability, (often with the Big 3 fighting standards now in place), progress is obviously unpredictable. But there are many ways to get there.
And relatively affluent American car buyers will probably choose to pay a premium for the vehicles equipped as desired.
09-02-10, 02:12 PM
#90
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The AWD LaCrosse uses the 3.6L now. They've completely dropped the 3.0L from the Buick lineup.