First Drive: 2011 Hyundai Equus
09-07-10, 08:54 PM
#46
Lexus Champion
So I return to this: I keep hearing this argument that anyone in a BMW/MB will laugh at them. For what? For spending their money on their car, instead of their logo? For spending more on their large, spacious, quiet Equus than the lease payment on the tiny, unreliable, expensive to maintain prestige car? There's no logic here at all - just ingrained consumeristic lemming behavior.
The typical 5/E series buyer will have no interest in the Genesis as it is not nearly as good a car as either. As has been mentioned before, the price difference is justified in that the 5 and E are both significant steps up from the Genesis. I very seriously considered the 5 and the E before deciding on another SUV, but the Genesis wasn't in the same class.
The Equus will be the same show in a different class.
09-07-10, 08:57 PM
#47
P.S.
As far as cutting out the trip to the dealership for service, its nothing new. I don't have to take my car to BMW dealership if I don't want to - I can call them up, and schedule them to pick it up from me.
As far as the buying experience, cutting out the dealership is a bad idea. When choosing a car you WANT to go to a NICE showroom, check out the models on the floor, accessories, etc. But then when your dealerships are anything like Bay Ridge Toyota or Plaza Hyundai here in Brooklyn, with service level and appeal of a fast food restaurant, you don't want to be anywhere near.
As far as cutting out the trip to the dealership for service, its nothing new. I don't have to take my car to BMW dealership if I don't want to - I can call them up, and schedule them to pick it up from me.
As far as the buying experience, cutting out the dealership is a bad idea. When choosing a car you WANT to go to a NICE showroom, check out the models on the floor, accessories, etc. But then when your dealerships are anything like Bay Ridge Toyota or Plaza Hyundai here in Brooklyn, with service level and appeal of a fast food restaurant, you don't want to be anywhere near.
09-07-10, 08:58 PM
#48
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You're kidding, right? Nobody that is still alive and buying cars holds any grudge against the German or Japanese people for WW2. If that was true, we'd be buying English and French cars en masse.
I guess the fundamental question here, is why the vehemence in wanting the Equus to fail? It's not going to have any large effect on the big brands in the short term, whether it fails or not. Very few people are realistically suggesting its an inferior automobile. The discussion is entirely centered on 'whether it will fail'. Why is that what is harped upon so much?
Answer: Because if enough people say it will fail, -it will fail-. And that's what people want, regardless of whether the car is a good one or not. It's a significant part of the problem with Genesis, and arguably was the reason for the failure of Phaeton. Phaeton was a great car for the price, but everyone was convinced it would fail - and then it did. How much of that was because everyone was so convinced it would fail, thus they refused to buy it, for fear of buying something that would experience horrible depreciation?
Which, of course, it did - how much of that was a self fulfilling prophecy, though?
I guess the fundamental question here, is why the vehemence in wanting the Equus to fail? It's not going to have any large effect on the big brands in the short term, whether it fails or not. Very few people are realistically suggesting its an inferior automobile. The discussion is entirely centered on 'whether it will fail'. Why is that what is harped upon so much?
Answer: Because if enough people say it will fail, -it will fail-. And that's what people want, regardless of whether the car is a good one or not. It's a significant part of the problem with Genesis, and arguably was the reason for the failure of Phaeton. Phaeton was a great car for the price, but everyone was convinced it would fail - and then it did. How much of that was because everyone was so convinced it would fail, thus they refused to buy it, for fear of buying something that would experience horrible depreciation?
Which, of course, it did - how much of that was a self fulfilling prophecy, though?
09-07-10, 09:07 PM
#49
^^^
As far as I know, before Lexus launched, many people said "it would fail". Yet it didn't, in fact it went on to become the most successful luxury brand in the US.
With that being said, I don't think many people want Equis to fail. Most people just don't care about the Equis, and those people who do care, most certainly want the Equis to succeed.
As far as I know, before Lexus launched, many people said "it would fail". Yet it didn't, in fact it went on to become the most successful luxury brand in the US.
With that being said, I don't think many people want Equis to fail. Most people just don't care about the Equis, and those people who do care, most certainly want the Equis to succeed.
09-07-10, 09:23 PM
#50
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I'm not going to quote anyone but I have to question the reality some are living in. This is bigger than cars. I've argued the brand/prestige point from day one here and I've been ABSOLUTELY CORRECT every time.
The HIGHER THE PRICE, the MORE THE BADGE/PRESTIGE/PANACHE matters. Period. The majority of these buyers don't care about value, they are already dropping SERIOUS COIN on a car. They want to project the image that "THEY HAVE ARRIVED" in life and they let the car do the talking.
It does them a great disrespect to suddenly attack people that like badges and high end brands just b/c a low rent brand has something similar. If this was truly the case, we all would be shopping at TJ Maxx and Bloomindales, Nordstrom, Saks, etc etc would all be out of business. We all would be at Club Toyota and not Clublexus. Benz world and Bimmer World would not exist and they would all drive VWs. People would not care for desirable zip codes, they would just move wherever was the best "value".
The other reality ignored is the Genesis NEVER met sales goals. It is a great car, it has brought new buyers to Hyundai but there has been NO MASS EXODUS of buyers dropping their GSs, 5, E classes etc to the Genesis. So I question how anyone can NOT doubt a more expensive Hyundai called the Equus. Its logical to doubt it. It's not hating, its not "racism" its not anything but a solid point of view from the other side.
Expensive cars from less known brands are a harder sell. This is not just a Hyundai issue, its an Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, Saab, Volvo, etc issue and those are luxury brands.
We can even bring the LFA in it. A lot of people simply dismiss it b/c its a $375,000 Lexus. Well guess what, they have a point! MOST PEOPLE at that price want the BADGE, the HERITAGE and will go with the usual Ferrari or Lamborghini.
I really don't understand how anyone can be that upset when someone says "I am not paying that much for a Hyundai" when they still have a long uphill battle to fight in regards to image. I've read and heard the same thing about Lexus 15 years ago and still hear it today "I'm not getting a Lexus".
Its Hyundai's business and job to convince people that they are a legitimate option to other luxury brands. People will continue to question any vehicles they produce moving up just like most anyone else NOT German.
Finally "VALUE" is relative. Will people feel they are getting an equal or better car for a cheaper price or will the Equus come off as being a lesser car at a lesser price.
One issue with the Phaeton was VW service or rather lack of it. Only certain dealers had the qualified techs to work on the cars and parts took forever to come in. Then you had a 70-90k Phaeton next to 15k Beetles and Golfs. Having recently been in a Hyundai dealer I completely understand why they don't want Equus owners anywhere near them.
I think we all welcome another solid entry in the field but pro Hyundai/Kia fans need to understand the D-class segment is one of the hardest to break into and doubters can have many legitimate points.
The HIGHER THE PRICE, the MORE THE BADGE/PRESTIGE/PANACHE matters. Period. The majority of these buyers don't care about value, they are already dropping SERIOUS COIN on a car. They want to project the image that "THEY HAVE ARRIVED" in life and they let the car do the talking.
It does them a great disrespect to suddenly attack people that like badges and high end brands just b/c a low rent brand has something similar. If this was truly the case, we all would be shopping at TJ Maxx and Bloomindales, Nordstrom, Saks, etc etc would all be out of business. We all would be at Club Toyota and not Clublexus. Benz world and Bimmer World would not exist and they would all drive VWs. People would not care for desirable zip codes, they would just move wherever was the best "value".
The other reality ignored is the Genesis NEVER met sales goals. It is a great car, it has brought new buyers to Hyundai but there has been NO MASS EXODUS of buyers dropping their GSs, 5, E classes etc to the Genesis. So I question how anyone can NOT doubt a more expensive Hyundai called the Equus. Its logical to doubt it. It's not hating, its not "racism" its not anything but a solid point of view from the other side.
Expensive cars from less known brands are a harder sell. This is not just a Hyundai issue, its an Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, Saab, Volvo, etc issue and those are luxury brands.
We can even bring the LFA in it. A lot of people simply dismiss it b/c its a $375,000 Lexus. Well guess what, they have a point! MOST PEOPLE at that price want the BADGE, the HERITAGE and will go with the usual Ferrari or Lamborghini.
I really don't understand how anyone can be that upset when someone says "I am not paying that much for a Hyundai" when they still have a long uphill battle to fight in regards to image. I've read and heard the same thing about Lexus 15 years ago and still hear it today "I'm not getting a Lexus".
Its Hyundai's business and job to convince people that they are a legitimate option to other luxury brands. People will continue to question any vehicles they produce moving up just like most anyone else NOT German.
Finally "VALUE" is relative. Will people feel they are getting an equal or better car for a cheaper price or will the Equus come off as being a lesser car at a lesser price.
One issue with the Phaeton was VW service or rather lack of it. Only certain dealers had the qualified techs to work on the cars and parts took forever to come in. Then you had a 70-90k Phaeton next to 15k Beetles and Golfs. Having recently been in a Hyundai dealer I completely understand why they don't want Equus owners anywhere near them.
I think we all welcome another solid entry in the field but pro Hyundai/Kia fans need to understand the D-class segment is one of the hardest to break into and doubters can have many legitimate points.
09-07-10, 10:19 PM
#51
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hyundai is in a tough bind, a separate luxury brand would have been useless without a changed perception of hyundai itself.
and the only way to do that would be to provide good looking, quality cars, there is no other way around it. Once that happens, it will only be a matter of time when it becomes the "samsung" and "lg" of the car industry.
and the only way to do that would be to provide good looking, quality cars, there is no other way around it. Once that happens, it will only be a matter of time when it becomes the "samsung" and "lg" of the car industry.
09-08-10, 12:36 AM
#53
Lexus Test Driver
I just can't see people climbing all over this car. I rarely see any Genesis sedans here in Los Angeles. If that is any indication, I am worried for the Equus. I think a better Genesis would have been money better spent.
Some design comments: Having two front emblems is rediculous. Rear lights are direct copies of Maxima lights. Dash is very clean and proportional, if a little truck-like (blocky and upright). Front styling is already dated. They took past popular styles (headlights, grille, lower intake, foglight area), embellished them, but did nothing new or advanced. I don't think it's enough to stay looking fresh or carry the body for 4-5 model years. Genesis suffers the same problem.
Some design comments: Having two front emblems is rediculous. Rear lights are direct copies of Maxima lights. Dash is very clean and proportional, if a little truck-like (blocky and upright). Front styling is already dated. They took past popular styles (headlights, grille, lower intake, foglight area), embellished them, but did nothing new or advanced. I don't think it's enough to stay looking fresh or carry the body for 4-5 model years. Genesis suffers the same problem.
09-08-10, 04:23 AM
#55
You're kidding, right? Nobody that is still alive and buying cars holds any grudge against the German or Japanese people for WW2. If that was true, we'd be buying English and French cars en masse.
I guess the fundamental question here, is why the vehemence in wanting the Equus to fail? It's not going to have any large effect on the big brands in the short term, whether it fails or not. Very few people are realistically suggesting its an inferior automobile. The discussion is entirely centered on 'whether it will fail'. Why is that what is harped upon so much?
Answer: Because if enough people say it will fail, -it will fail-. And that's what people want, regardless of whether the car is a good one or not. It's a significant part of the problem with Genesis, and arguably was the reason for the failure of Phaeton. Phaeton was a great car for the price, but everyone was convinced it would fail - and then it did. How much of that was because everyone was so convinced it would fail, thus they refused to buy it, for fear of buying something that would experience horrible depreciation?
Which, of course, it did - how much of that was a self fulfilling prophecy, though?
I guess the fundamental question here, is why the vehemence in wanting the Equus to fail? It's not going to have any large effect on the big brands in the short term, whether it fails or not. Very few people are realistically suggesting its an inferior automobile. The discussion is entirely centered on 'whether it will fail'. Why is that what is harped upon so much?
Answer: Because if enough people say it will fail, -it will fail-. And that's what people want, regardless of whether the car is a good one or not. It's a significant part of the problem with Genesis, and arguably was the reason for the failure of Phaeton. Phaeton was a great car for the price, but everyone was convinced it would fail - and then it did. How much of that was because everyone was so convinced it would fail, thus they refused to buy it, for fear of buying something that would experience horrible depreciation?
Which, of course, it did - how much of that was a self fulfilling prophecy, though?
The Phaeton failed because it was a VW and the cost was Base MSRP: $66,700 to a ridiculous $101,300.Probably still would have failed at $55K-$80K.It had a VW badge.
I think a $60+K Hyundai success will be a long shot.
Hyundai needs a luxury SUV and crossover along with luxury showrooms.
On the Genesis...
Fizzboy posted he doesn't see many Genesis vehicles in LA.I'm in the NYC metro area and haven't seen one for quite awhile.AWD may help but still won't see too many,IMO.
09-08-10, 06:46 AM
#56
Decent numbers for both cars, but at an estimated $9-10K difference, I don't see many people stepping down and opting for the Hyundai. At $15-20K less, this car is a serious deal. At anything less than that I think it's really hard to justify, especially to most people dropping $65-$75K on a car.
Edmunds was quite complenentary of the LS:
Edmunds was quite complenentary of the LS:
Handling Comments:
Skid pad: Remarkable balance and feedback at the limit. You can easily drive with throttle despite low limits and relatively slow responses.
Slalom: Surprisingly, turning stability control off actually means "off." Not much to be gained in doing so in slalom, however. Rear loses grip first, and this is a big car to slide at 65 mph.
Skid pad: Remarkable balance and feedback at the limit. You can easily drive with throttle despite low limits and relatively slow responses.
Slalom: Surprisingly, turning stability control off actually means "off." Not much to be gained in doing so in slalom, however. Rear loses grip first, and this is a big car to slide at 65 mph.
09-08-10, 06:49 AM
#57
Some design comments: Having two front emblems is rediculous. Rear lights are direct copies of Maxima lights. Dash is very clean and proportional, if a little truck-like (blocky and upright). Front styling is already dated. They took past popular styles (headlights, grille, lower intake, foglight area), embellished them, but did nothing new or advanced. I don't think it's enough to stay looking fresh or carry the body for 4-5 model years. Genesis suffers the same problem.
09-08-10, 06:49 AM
#58
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Decent numbers for both cars, but at an estimated $9-10K difference, I don't see many people stepping down and opting for the Hyundai. At $15-20K less, this car is a serious deal. At anything less than that I think it's really hard to justify, especially to most people dropping $65-$75K on a car.
09-08-10, 06:54 AM
#59
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about brand, prestige, etc., i don't think anyone is denying hyundai has a tough road and won't waltz into this market. even if genesis hasn't met sales goals though, selling nearly 3000 last month in this crap economy is impressive!
anyway, if a company wants to move upmarket, they've got to start somewhere. in the mid-late 80s that meant starting a new brand. toyota also made a brand for 'youth-oriented' vehicles (scion). hyundai's decided for now they're not dropping billions on a new brand. might work, might not. they might have a completely different time horizon than us though - they might be ok that it might take decades to slowly take hyundai up market and use kia for mainstream vehicles.
but i believe something fundamental has changed, because the ECONOMY has changed, likely for a long time. we're going to be WHACKED by healthcare costs and new taxes soon. many people will end up only buying 'presitgious' brands by buying used because that's all they can afford. others may decide to take a look at a 'value' - like genesis. the equus is a tough sell because if money's tight, who wants to drive around in a modern day cadillac with all that bling?
i expect hyundai will have to learn to tone it down with a refresh.regardless, they had to start somewhere if they want to have a chance in the game.