View Poll Results: Do you agree?
Yes, todays market is horrible for hybrids
5
13.16%
No, I disagree its other factors/hybrids are doing fine
21
55.26%
I hate hybrids, burn them all
4
10.53%
I hate hybrids, I hate 1SICKLEX, he has hybrids=HATE HATE HATE HATE
8
21.05%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll
Ford VP: "You can't sell a hybrid in today's market"
09-19-10 | 11:59 PM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,285
Likes: 0
From: A better place
Its amazing to see people continue to simplify "all" hybrids with the "oh its not worth it" banter. Is a 100% gasoline engine "worth it"? Diesel? Electric? Shouldn't we all then walk and/or take public transit? Is a 4 door worth it over a 2 door? Does a SUV make sense over a sedan? Does a V-8 make sense over a V-6 if only only speed so often? Does an exotic car make sense if you can never fully use their capabilities on public roads?
If you look at hybrids with the singular viewpoint of "gas savings" then you miss out on the other positive aspects of hybrids as well as mostly assume gas stays flat. The "oh the battery will die and be expensive at 100k" is simply another hybrid myth as there hasn't been any data to show its a huge problem. If it was we would have easily heard of it by now.
I think the VP has a legit point as its one I've stated many times. With gas stable at under $3 people would rather buy guzzlers or not worry about MPG let alone hybrids. We have seen the stats show SUV sales are back up.
I also agree with JPL that the hybrid needs to make a compelling argument and in most cases it seems they really need to get most of the marks right, otherwise they will fail (Durango hybrid, Insight, HS, etc).
In my opinion people are so ignorant towards hybrids they don't even give any a chance, instead relying on idiotic viewpoints and/or data mixed with anti-hybrid opinions. I still get asked "where do you plug it in"
in 2010. Hybrids have been out nearly 15 years now.
Most will bet gas prices will rise and those companies investing in hyrbids/electrics etc today will benefit tomorrow.
If you look at hybrids with the singular viewpoint of "gas savings" then you miss out on the other positive aspects of hybrids as well as mostly assume gas stays flat. The "oh the battery will die and be expensive at 100k" is simply another hybrid myth as there hasn't been any data to show its a huge problem. If it was we would have easily heard of it by now.
I think the VP has a legit point as its one I've stated many times. With gas stable at under $3 people would rather buy guzzlers or not worry about MPG let alone hybrids. We have seen the stats show SUV sales are back up.
I also agree with JPL that the hybrid needs to make a compelling argument and in most cases it seems they really need to get most of the marks right, otherwise they will fail (Durango hybrid, Insight, HS, etc).
In my opinion people are so ignorant towards hybrids they don't even give any a chance, instead relying on idiotic viewpoints and/or data mixed with anti-hybrid opinions. I still get asked "where do you plug it in"
in 2010. Hybrids have been out nearly 15 years now. Most will bet gas prices will rise and those companies investing in hyrbids/electrics etc today will benefit tomorrow.
As for gas prices, it's not a question of if but simply a question of when they will rise.
09-20-10 | 07:05 AM
#17
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,518
Likes: 0
From: MD
But the Fusion hybrid sells. I think the downfall, if there is one, of the MKZ is that 1. people aren't exactly flocking to Lincoln and 2. Its a heavier vehicle than the Fusion, with perhaps not enough ponies that Americans are accustomed to in such a vehicle.
09-20-10 | 07:12 AM
#18
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,764
Likes: 1
From: Treasury
Its amazing to see people continue to simplify "all" hybrids with the "oh its not worth it" banter. Is a 100% gasoline engine "worth it"? Diesel? Electric? Shouldn't we all then walk and/or take public transit? Is a 4 door worth it over a 2 door? Does a SUV make sense over a sedan? Does a V-8 make sense over a V-6 if only only speed so often? Does an exotic car make sense if you can never fully use their capabilities on public roads?
If you look at hybrids with the singular viewpoint of "gas savings" then you miss out on the other positive aspects of hybrids as well as mostly assume gas stays flat. The "oh the battery will die and be expensive at 100k" is simply another hybrid myth as there hasn't been any data to show its a huge problem. If it was we would have easily heard of it by now.
I think the VP has a legit point as its one I've stated many times. With gas stable at under $3 people would rather buy guzzlers or not worry about MPG let alone hybrids. We have seen the stats show SUV sales are back up.
I also agree with JPL that the hybrid needs to make a compelling argument and in most cases it seems they really need to get most of the marks right, otherwise they will fail (Durango hybrid, Insight, HS, etc).
In my opinion people are so ignorant towards hybrids they don't even give any a chance, instead relying on idiotic viewpoints and/or data mixed with anti-hybrid opinions. I still get asked "where do you plug it in" in 2010. Hybrids have been out nearly 15 years now.
Most will bet gas prices will rise and those companies investing in hyrbids/electrics etc today will benefit tomorrow.
If you look at hybrids with the singular viewpoint of "gas savings" then you miss out on the other positive aspects of hybrids as well as mostly assume gas stays flat. The "oh the battery will die and be expensive at 100k" is simply another hybrid myth as there hasn't been any data to show its a huge problem. If it was we would have easily heard of it by now.
I think the VP has a legit point as its one I've stated many times. With gas stable at under $3 people would rather buy guzzlers or not worry about MPG let alone hybrids. We have seen the stats show SUV sales are back up.
I also agree with JPL that the hybrid needs to make a compelling argument and in most cases it seems they really need to get most of the marks right, otherwise they will fail (Durango hybrid, Insight, HS, etc).
In my opinion people are so ignorant towards hybrids they don't even give any a chance, instead relying on idiotic viewpoints and/or data mixed with anti-hybrid opinions. I still get asked "where do you plug it in"
in 2010. Hybrids have been out nearly 15 years now. Most will bet gas prices will rise and those companies investing in hyrbids/electrics etc today will benefit tomorrow.
The question is where do you see value? When I buy a V8 or Diesel, I get more power which I may or may not need, may be more fun, may allow me to tow more etc.
I buy a hybrid I get better MPG, I am technically doing something for the environment etc
But ok, I am not going to pay more to save more MPG unless it makes economical sense to me, that is strictly a value proposition for buying that car in this case so if it doesn’t make financial sense that reason is out the window. Same thing with a diesel, some buy it because they want it, when I shopped for one it was 6-7k more for a diesel and at the time didn’t need the power, so I think well, I can buy a hell of a lot of gas for 6-7k………..
As far as environment, then that is subjective to each buyer, and for someone that feels strongly about that and or the over all benefits of lowering the demand for oil then here is your smile factor.
The market just haven’t reached the point yet where they have a clear reason to buy one, either by cost, size or performance, once it gets there people may be more willing to buy into it without the price of gas being the sole motivator.
09-20-10 | 07:29 AM
#19
I don’t think you can discount the “it’s not worth” argument. If it really isn’t worth it to the buyer that is more than a valid reason. People spend money on things they think is worth it in whatever regard that is. (like dropping 5k on HRE wheels, worth it? Most in the world would say no, to those that own them, they see their car in the morning and smile)
The question is where do you see value? When I buy a V8 or Diesel, I get more power which I may or may not need, may be more fun, may allow me to tow more etc.
I buy a hybrid I get better MPG, I am technically doing something for the environment etc
But ok, I am not going to pay more to save more MPG unless it makes economical sense to me, that is strictly a value proposition for buying that car in this case so if it doesn’t make financial sense that reason is out the window. Same thing with a diesel, some buy it because they want it, when I shopped for one it was 6-7k more for a diesel and at the time didn’t need the power, so I think well, I can buy a hell of a lot of gas for 6-7k………..
As far as environment, then that is subjective to each buyer, and for someone that feels strongly about that and or the over all benefits of lowering the demand for oil then here is your smile factor.
The market just haven’t reached the point yet where they have a clear reason to buy one, either by cost, size or performance, once it gets there people may be more willing to buy into it without the price of gas being the sole motivator.
The question is where do you see value? When I buy a V8 or Diesel, I get more power which I may or may not need, may be more fun, may allow me to tow more etc.
I buy a hybrid I get better MPG, I am technically doing something for the environment etc
But ok, I am not going to pay more to save more MPG unless it makes economical sense to me, that is strictly a value proposition for buying that car in this case so if it doesn’t make financial sense that reason is out the window. Same thing with a diesel, some buy it because they want it, when I shopped for one it was 6-7k more for a diesel and at the time didn’t need the power, so I think well, I can buy a hell of a lot of gas for 6-7k………..
As far as environment, then that is subjective to each buyer, and for someone that feels strongly about that and or the over all benefits of lowering the demand for oil then here is your smile factor.
The market just haven’t reached the point yet where they have a clear reason to buy one, either by cost, size or performance, once it gets there people may be more willing to buy into it without the price of gas being the sole motivator.
09-20-10 | 12:40 PM
#20
or increase the benefits.
the typical hybrid costs $2500-3000 more than a comparable gas model, after tax credits.
basic calculation-
4banger makes 30 mpg.
nonprius hybrid makes 38mpg.
at a price of $3.30 per gal, and driving 100k miles, the hybrid saves ~700 gallons of gas,
which comes out to $2300.
you've just about broken even after 100k miles.
for many people, it just doesn't make cents.
basic calculation-
4banger makes 30 mpg.
nonprius hybrid makes 38mpg.
at a price of $3.30 per gal, and driving 100k miles, the hybrid saves ~700 gallons of gas,
which comes out to $2300.
you've just about broken even after 100k miles.
for many people, it just doesn't make cents.
I don’t think you can discount the “it’s not worth” argument. If it really isn’t worth it to the buyer that is more than a valid reason. People spend money on things they think is worth it in whatever regard that is. (like dropping 5k on HRE wheels, worth it? Most in the world would say no, to those that own them, they see their car in the morning and smile)
The question is where do you see value? When I buy a V8 or Diesel, I get more power which I may or may not need, may be more fun, may allow me to tow more etc.
I buy a hybrid I get better MPG, I am technically doing something for the environment etc
But ok, I am not going to pay more to save more MPG unless it makes economical sense to me, that is strictly a value proposition for buying that car in this case so if it doesn’t make financial sense that reason is out the window. Same thing with a diesel, some buy it because they want it, when I shopped for one it was 6-7k more for a diesel and at the time didn’t need the power, so I think well, I can buy a hell of a lot of gas for 6-7k………..
As far as environment, then that is subjective to each buyer, and for someone that feels strongly about that and or the over all benefits of lowering the demand for oil then here is your smile factor.
The market just haven’t reached the point yet where they have a clear reason to buy one, either by cost, size or performance, once it gets there people may be more willing to buy into it without the price of gas being the sole motivator.
The question is where do you see value? When I buy a V8 or Diesel, I get more power which I may or may not need, may be more fun, may allow me to tow more etc.
I buy a hybrid I get better MPG, I am technically doing something for the environment etc
But ok, I am not going to pay more to save more MPG unless it makes economical sense to me, that is strictly a value proposition for buying that car in this case so if it doesn’t make financial sense that reason is out the window. Same thing with a diesel, some buy it because they want it, when I shopped for one it was 6-7k more for a diesel and at the time didn’t need the power, so I think well, I can buy a hell of a lot of gas for 6-7k………..
As far as environment, then that is subjective to each buyer, and for someone that feels strongly about that and or the over all benefits of lowering the demand for oil then here is your smile factor.
The market just haven’t reached the point yet where they have a clear reason to buy one, either by cost, size or performance, once it gets there people may be more willing to buy into it without the price of gas being the sole motivator.
09-20-10 | 12:51 PM
#21
Shouldn't we all then walk and/or take public transit? Is a 4 door worth it over a 2 door? Does a SUV make sense over a sedan? Does a V-8 make sense over a V-6 if only only speed so often? Does an exotic car make sense if you can never fully use their capabilities on public roads?
the 'point' is there's no CLEAR compelling benefit of hybrids besides maybe the low emissions part. they're not cheaper, they don't drive 'better', although Lexus has done the best job in your car (GS450h, the RX450h, and probably, although i've not driven one, the uber-expensive LS600hL). but as you know, your car has trade-offs, the RX450h is, to me, by FAR, the best hybrid implementation ever. there's no compromise on space i don't believe, it adds to performance as well as economy, and so the cost delta is probably "worth it" to many.
If you look at hybrids with the singular viewpoint of "gas savings" then you miss out on the other positive aspects of hybrids
The "oh the battery will die and be expensive at 100k" is simply another hybrid myth as there hasn't been any data to show its a huge problem. If it was we would have easily heard of it by now.
I also agree with JPL that the hybrid needs to make a compelling argument and in most cases it seems they really need to get most of the marks right, otherwise they will fail (Durango hybrid, Insight, HS, etc).
In my opinion people are so ignorant towards hybrids they don't even give any a chance, instead relying on idiotic viewpoints and/or data mixed with anti-hybrid opinions.
yes, the general public doesn't get much about hybrids yet, but then they don't get much about vehicles PERIOD.
09-20-10 | 12:58 PM
#22
Pole Position
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,791
Likes: 25
From: VA
I'm not a big fan of this kind of thinking...
This school of thought, along with the stupid CAFE standards (which punishes auto manufacturers for what cars their CUSTOMERS choose to buy), just doesn't make any busness sense.
I don't want a car manufacturer to spend millions of dollars to make a car that's going to sit on the lot...but that makes the greenies feel all warm and fuzzy inside, knowing it's for sale.
Build the cars *I* want to buy, and I will give you my money...not the cars the government wants you to build...and not the cars that make the tree-huggers (who all use public transportation anyway) go weak in the knees.
Clearly, Ford and its chief marketer mean it when they say they aren't just chasing market share anymore, they to want to establish a 'green' image as well.
I don't want a car manufacturer to spend millions of dollars to make a car that's going to sit on the lot...but that makes the greenies feel all warm and fuzzy inside, knowing it's for sale.
Build the cars *I* want to buy, and I will give you my money...not the cars the government wants you to build...and not the cars that make the tree-huggers (who all use public transportation anyway) go weak in the knees.
09-20-10 | 01:57 PM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,100
Likes: 1
From: tech capital
"He believes gas prices will level off over the next six months. That's not good for hybrid sales."
That's all wonderful and reasonable speculation (his army of Marketing MBA's figured that out), I hope this automaker continues to focus on more than the next 6 months.
That's all wonderful and reasonable speculation (his army of Marketing MBA's figured that out), I hope this automaker continues to focus on more than the next 6 months.
Last edited by IS-SV; 09-20-10 at 02:02 PM. Reason: sp
09-20-10 | 02:11 PM
#25
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,964
Likes: 179
Hybrids and Diesels - not big difference from cost benefit perspective, if thats the way you are looking at it. They cost more and it is more expensive to recoup these costs.
However what happens in Europe (and in USA with Prius) is that Diesels get much better resale values as well. You can not just look at it just in gas savings, once you look at resale values, Diesels (and Hybrids) make sense.
For Instance, I just went to KBB, compared price of base Prius and mid Camry 4cly, which cost about the same, and 2 years later, Prius is worth $1k more.
Compared to Corolla, Prius retained value $2k better.
And thats with Corolla and Camry, cars that hold their values well. Compared to Fusion, Prius held its value $2.5k better.
So you basically do not lose any money at all... all you drive, goes straight to your pocket savings.
This is what happens in Europe as well, as diesels do not make any sense in cars that are smaller than Camry (D segment), if you just look at fuel price. However we still get 45% of cars sold being diesels, despite best selling models being B and C class vehicles (Yaris/Corolla).
Why?
a. Considerably better used values (where you retain all the money you spent originally)
b. More performance compared to small petrol engines
c. Daily savings and feel good factor
However what happens in Europe (and in USA with Prius) is that Diesels get much better resale values as well. You can not just look at it just in gas savings, once you look at resale values, Diesels (and Hybrids) make sense.
For Instance, I just went to KBB, compared price of base Prius and mid Camry 4cly, which cost about the same, and 2 years later, Prius is worth $1k more.
Compared to Corolla, Prius retained value $2k better.
And thats with Corolla and Camry, cars that hold their values well. Compared to Fusion, Prius held its value $2.5k better.
So you basically do not lose any money at all... all you drive, goes straight to your pocket savings.
This is what happens in Europe as well, as diesels do not make any sense in cars that are smaller than Camry (D segment), if you just look at fuel price. However we still get 45% of cars sold being diesels, despite best selling models being B and C class vehicles (Yaris/Corolla).
Why?
a. Considerably better used values (where you retain all the money you spent originally)
b. More performance compared to small petrol engines
c. Daily savings and feel good factor
09-20-10 | 02:28 PM
#26
H
For Instance, I just went to KBB, compared price of base Prius and mid Camry 4cly, which cost about the same, and 2 years later, Prius is worth $1k more.
Compared to Corolla, Prius retained value $2k better.
And thats with Corolla and Camry, cars that hold their values well. Compared to Fusion, Prius held its value $2.5k better.
For Instance, I just went to KBB, compared price of base Prius and mid Camry 4cly, which cost about the same, and 2 years later, Prius is worth $1k more.
Compared to Corolla, Prius retained value $2k better.
And thats with Corolla and Camry, cars that hold their values well. Compared to Fusion, Prius held its value $2.5k better.
A Camry Hybrid cost a whoopin' $5-6k more than the Base/LE models. The only time it really shines in terms of fuel saving is during on city drives (31/35 hybrid vs 22/33 4cyl). Someone tell me how long you'll need to drive the Camry Hybrid in order to recoup the $5-6k. By the time you've accumulated enough miles, the car will be old(er) and the resale value margin becomes slimmer.
I am all for hybrid because I hate wasting fuel when I'm at the stop light, but I won't buy one over the regular model until the benefit becomes clearer.
09-20-10 | 02:35 PM
#27
Racer
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,726
Likes: 8
From: USA
My next car will most likely be in the $20k range and IMHO, the Prius is the best value for me. Midsized, highly practical, 50mpg and within the price i am going to buy a car for without paying the "hybrid premium."
09-20-10 | 04:18 PM
#28
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,518
Likes: 0
From: MD
A Camry Hybrid cost a whoopin' $5-6k more than the Base/LE models. The only time it really shines in terms of fuel saving is during on city drives (31/35 hybrid vs 22/33 4cyl). Someone tell me how long you'll need to drive the Camry Hybrid in order to recoup the $5-6k. By the time you've accumulated enough miles, the car will be old(er) and the resale value margin becomes slimmer.
I am all for hybrid because I hate wasting fuel when I'm at the stop light, but I won't buy one over the regular model until the benefit becomes clearer.
I am all for hybrid because I hate wasting fuel when I'm at the stop light, but I won't buy one over the regular model until the benefit becomes clearer.
09-20-10 | 09:06 PM
#29
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,964
Likes: 179
Those cars cannot be compared like that. The argument is whether the hybrid versions are worth the price over the non-hybrid. A more realistic comparison would be a Camry 4cyl vs a Camry Hybrid. The Prius already has the stigma of being the father of hybrids so it's going to keep its resale value on that factor alone.
A Camry Hybrid cost a whoopin' $5-6k more than the Base/LE models. The only time it really shines in terms of fuel saving is during on city drives (31/35 hybrid vs 22/33 4cyl). Someone tell me how long you'll need to drive the Camry Hybrid in order to recoup the $5-6k. By the time you've accumulated enough miles, the car will be old(er) and the resale value margin becomes slimmer.
I am all for hybrid because I hate wasting fuel when I'm at the stop light, but I won't buy one over the regular model until the benefit becomes clearer.
A Camry Hybrid cost a whoopin' $5-6k more than the Base/LE models. The only time it really shines in terms of fuel saving is during on city drives (31/35 hybrid vs 22/33 4cyl). Someone tell me how long you'll need to drive the Camry Hybrid in order to recoup the $5-6k. By the time you've accumulated enough miles, the car will be old(er) and the resale value margin becomes slimmer.
I am all for hybrid because I hate wasting fuel when I'm at the stop light, but I won't buy one over the regular model until the benefit becomes clearer.
But as I said it before, who gives a crap on how much you paid for the vehicle in first place? Cost of owning vehicle is Purchase cost + Ongoing costs (fuel, insurance, maintainace) - used price = cost of ownership.
At the end, 2007 Camry Hybrid is 20k used, 2007 Camry LE is 15k used.
I am not sure what is so hard to calculate here. Why would you need to save 5k over LE (which btw is slower and has less options so it is not directly comparable)???
09-21-10 | 12:26 AM
#30
But as I said it before, who gives a crap on how much you paid for the vehicle in first place? Cost of owning vehicle is Purchase cost + Ongoing costs (fuel, insurance, maintainace) - used price = cost of ownership.
At the end, 2007 Camry Hybrid is 20k used, 2007 Camry LE is 15k used.
At the end, 2007 Camry Hybrid is 20k used, 2007 Camry LE is 15k used.
According to KBB, a 2007 LE is worth $12.5k while the Hybrid is worth $15.5k. I put the mileage in as 45,000 miles, considering average seems to be 15k miles/year in the US. That's 2k already gone down in resale value. Is the hybrid's fuel economy enough to make up within 45k miles?
I am not sure what is so hard to calculate here. Why would you need to save 5k over LE (which btw is slower and has less options so it is not directly comparable)???
Are hybrids worth it? YES and NO, but there are more saying NO now than before. This may change in the future, but I don't expect hybrids to be a clear cut for everyone unless it's as cheaper, and/or offers staggering fuel economy that will recoup the initial price in a short time frame.