TRDFantasy

Speaking with someone I know, I have a pretty good idea of what the 2012 Camry exterior looks like.

It has a more muscular side profile, a more sporty stance than the current model, and looks modern and elegant without being offensive, gaudy, or tacky. The SE exterior does indeed look very aggressive. I haven't seen the XLE exterior, but that is supposed to look quite elegant. I wouldn't say it looks exactly like an E60 5 Series in profile, but it looks similar in terms of both having clean, elegant yet muscular side profiles. Also forgot to mention, not much LFA styling cues as far as I know.

I have yet to see the interior, but the XLE interior does approach Lexus levels in terms of features and options. XLE interior is a big upgrade over the current Camry XLE interior. Not sure about interior of other trim levels.

Overall, based on the exterior information I have, and the quick exterior picture I managed to glance at, I think Toyota easily has a winner here.

To me, the exterior looks better than the current 6th-gen model. This new 7th-gen is the best Camry ever exterior-wise IMO. Personally, I wasn't sure if they would be able to improve on the exterior of the current 6th-gen, but they did.

If some of the other rumored information is true, such as two hybrid models, then Toyota will send the competition back to the drawing board with this new Camry.

LexFather

One thing that does worry me is that Lexus/Toyota have done a good job differentiating the interior quality and feel of Toyotas compared to Lexus. In contrast I find Honda/Acura and Nissan/Infiniti interiors close in many cases in feel and looks.

I do hope that if the Camry gets an upgraded interior then the ES etc all get even better interiors to keep the Toyota/Lexus interior gap.

There is no questioning the different in a Camry/ES interior for example but an Accord/TL/TSX or Maxima/G37 interior are very similar.

TRDFantasy

I wish I could say what the interior looks like and how improved it is, but I don't know. Feature and options-wise the interior is a big upgrade. If the interior is a major improvement in quality, than the next-gen ES MUST be a big upgrade as well in order for the differentiation to exist. That would also mean all the other next-gen Lexus models would need to be big improvements.

I have faith that Toyota will keep a clear differentiation between Toyota and Lexus models.

I agree, Honda/Acura and Nissan/Infiniti are terrible in terms of the lack of differentiation.

GiantsFan

iTrader: (9)

Talk about a comeback car! .... something to show everyone out there that TOYOTA IS BACK!

RXSF

the car industry will be very interesting over the next few years. The gap between Lexus and Toyota products will continue to decline because Toyota needs to up their game to compete with Ford and Hyundai. I'm still surprised that the navi software for both makes is very similar but just a different color scheme and resolutions.

TRDFantasy

Do you know something we don't know? Why would the gap between Toyota and Lexus "continue" to decline? Lexus interiors continue to remain far better than Toyota interiors overall. I don't see the gap declining, but rather likely increasing. Long-term quality for Ford and Hyundai products remains to be seen. Both of them have flashy new designs, but that doesn't mean they are great quality.

RXSF

Just a general observation. Toyota and Lexus models have always shared the same engines in their respective classes, but they were always listed as having different ratings for some sort of differentiation, ie. the same 3.5 made 268 in the camry while 272 in the ES and RX. But now, they have rerated the ES to have the same 268 on the website. The CT and HS share identical power trains to the Prius and Camry.

past the engines, we have the nav system. pretty much the same software except one is dvd based and one is hard drive based. and it really doesnt even matter seeing as how the Lexus system doesnt utilize the hard drive by letting you rip to it.





Then we have features and amenities in the cars. They are pretty darn similar at this point. You can get the self parking feature on the Prius from the LS, the same LKA, and advanced pre collision system (all of which coincidentally not available on other Lexus models). Going about the cabin you have the same fold down rear seat levers on the RX as you do on the highlander. Theses are just some random examples.

Besides style and nameplate, there is very little differentiation here. Sure, Lexus models have more sound deadening material and better quality inside and out, but I feel there needs to be more.

I dont blame toyota. They have to catch up to Ford sync, and they can no longer produce boring designs that in the past managed to still be better looking than hyundais. All that has changed. And what happens when Toyota gets the EnTune services later this year. I dont think we have heard anything about Lexus getting something like that. And even if it does go to Lexus, then here we are again back to the point of this post. Lexus IMO needs to step it up too.


edit: I would like to add that the only saving grace here is that the new highlander hybrid out gets 28/28 with less horsepower.

UDel

I notice that too but that is just because the Camry interior feels and looks cheaper then the Accord and Maxima so the difference between the Camry and ES is larger. The Accord and to a lesser extent Maxima interior look and feel higher quality then the Camry so the difference between them and a TL/G37 is not as great. Honda would have to dumb the Accord interior down more for their to be a bigger difference and I doubt they want to do that since one of the Accords selling points is its interior quality and design.

LexLaw

This is exactly what I've been saying in this thread and for the last few years. People always kill me when they say "Toyota knows their audience and they want plain." I think that's garbage and that level of complacency will do nothing to help Toyota stay on top. Especially when you have the Koreans putting out better products which also happen to look damn good. And of course Ford and and their offerings have only gotten better and are pushing their Detroit counterparts to step up their game. Vanilla is always better with sprinkles and a gourmet cone.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i also want to see more differentiation between lexus and toyota. there are quite a lot already on materials, build, etc... but some stuff they are just too similar as mentioned. and i surely hope lexus and toyota don't expect people to want plain, unless they want to continue increase avg age of their owners

spwolf

This is most ridiculous thing I have read this month, and I am a bit saddened to see it from well respected people.

Why in the world should Toyota make Toyota worse cars in order to make Lexus look better?

That should NEVER happen.

a. Camry competes in 20-33k range. Toyota should make the best car they can in that price range.
b. ES350 competes in 36k-42k range. Lexus should make the best car they can in that price range.

To me there is clear difference there - $10k difference.

Every Toyota interior I have ever seen was built to the price. There is not a single one I have seen and didnt say: why did they do this? why did they do that?

Enter Lexus interiors.... my response was.... Toyota does know how to build interior, it is just matter of $$$.... Level of detail is amazing. Quality of materials, fitting, details... off the chart.

My response is that Toyota should make best Toyota's and Lexus's they can, at the price point.

As to the navigation - there is clean differentiation between remote touch and touch screens used in Toyota.

I am really sorry to bust your bubble - i expect entune to make it to majority of Toyota models, and soon. Verso-S, Yaris based MPV in Europe, sold at cheap $15k, just got almost-standard "entune" 6.1" media center screen, ipod, google, sms functions (it is standard in 3 out of 4 spec levels). Toyota is making it their differentiation point from other auto makers, and you will be able to "upgrade" it for $500 with navigation box that integrates in.

This system leapfrogs anything Lexus has.


.... and I bet next Lexus will get it too. It makes no sense to make Lexus system be completely different...

spwolf

agreed... i watched closely unveil of new verso-s, and toyota, if anything, is proving they can learn, fast. mid spec levels of verso-s have soft touch dashboard (compared to hard plastic in lower levels) and affordable high end equipment, like mentioned Toyota Touch system and full panoramic roof (biggest in business), for only $500.

of course, toyota wont get great rep easily, i was reading euro mags and some uk and german mags called interior cheap while some german and french mags called it "clearly class higher" (than competition). :-)... some said Toyota Touch isnt anything special, of course, as usual, made me wonder what these journos drive usually... i currently drive Nissan Note, which is best selling car in that same class, and instead of 6.1" ipod/sms/google system I got 1 din cheap radio (looks like $20 woth). :-)

spwolf

More about Toyota Touch:


p.s. Verso-S, lightest car in the class thanks to the use of 35% high tensile steel.

RXSF

why not? It makes perfect sense from a business standpoint. Id be surprised if they didnt. Lets take a step back from a second. Toyota makes two brands, and they charge consumers quite a significant premium to buy a Lexus model. Yes, brand/prestige is powerful (and probably fuels a lot of their sales), and yes, there is the quiet and smooth power-trains (which is no longer unique to a Lexus). Service? perhaps, though that is unique to specific dealerships and IMO, is a quality that is slowly declining.

So we have there three (semi) solid reasons to buy a Lexus over a Toyota -- that is building on my previous posts about how amenities and options are beginning to overlap. So then, why buy an RXh over a Highlander-h? Its a 5 thousand price premium base, and when loaded up to the gills, the price difference increases. Clearly, I thought it was worth it or else I would have bought a highlander-h, but to some, it makes no logical sense if the underpinnings/performance/features of each vehicle are identical and you choose the more expensive one.

Im sure Toyota and Lexus know this. Its an image they have had to battle with everyday since the 90s. So I wouldnt blame them if they reserved their better hybrid tech for Lexus models. 28/28 is good enough for a toyota but perhaps an extra 5K should buy you an extra 2mpg at the very least.

(and on the navigation) We only have two current models using remote touch. The rest still use touch screens, so RT is not a difference in the systems. That toyota screen layout is the same that you would find on the LS

spwolf

what you are saying is that Toyota, that sells 7 million cars per year, should make their cars less good, so their toy division - Lexus, can sell 400k cars per year?

But people do not compare Lexus and Toyota's (not ones that are buying luxury cars).

If Toyota makes lesser cars just because, then their real competitors - GM, Ford, VW, Hyundai/KIA will have big advantage over them.

Toyota will continue building best cars as it can, and as example above shows, it will push even further into "entry-premium" market.

As to the Remote Touch, do you expect Lexus to fully redesign their vehicles on yearly basis? Compare LS and Camry navigations - LS gets HDD, faster CPU, better graphics, better screen, and soon remote touch (all will get it at redesign).

They will still have same interface, because thats what TMC research think it is best interface... to think that they should make Camry navigational interface significantly worse just because someone in Lexus will feel better, is ridicilous.