2011 Nissan GT-R officially laps the Nurburgring in 7:20
10-18-10, 09:08 AM
#17
Lexus Test Driver
Wait, so is this a thread about the new 2012 GTR, or is it really just a thread whining about the lack of an official LFA Nür time? I think we need a thread retitle here?
Of course it's "more meaningful" than straight line acceleration. The problem is that it's still not meaningful in measuring a car's driving characteristics.
Of course it's "more meaningful" than straight line acceleration. The problem is that it's still not meaningful in measuring a car's driving characteristics.
10-18-10, 09:12 AM
#18
HAHHAHAHAA mike need some serious spanking 
j/k
i guess my position is a bit different. do i care about ring time? honestly not so much at all. do i read about ring times? sure, when available, why not.
nissan doesn't release the spec v time, true, but that's how they choose to do the marketing. they just never focus on that at all (for whatever reason). and they focus on it a lot for their normal gtr. yup, can be a lot of tricky condition, but they did it and marketing is working for them so far (you can't deny it, considering the fact that people are debating about ring time so often now).
for lexus? personally i still think they never try to focus that much on the ring time. however they put too much emphasis on that this is the best track car out there, performance is off the hook, etc... AND their own driving putting up enormous hype when they said ring time 7:20 (or below?). starting from THAT moment, lexus got themselves into trouble, coz' people started talking (just look at all those who talk about in the lfa thread, either pro or against it). and i have bee saying it, unless there is a lfa by any drivers doing that time putting it up as official, lexus did something pretty bad
and partly coz' of that, when ring times start to appear, disappointments pour in fast. reasons and excuses arise fast as well. but bottom line is we are seeing big difference in the ring time from what lexus was claiming. yup, to me that's a mystery, and it's up to lexus to clear.
regarding ring time, think of it this way. yup, the fastest ring time could be under very discrete condition, time, temperature, humidity, tire choice (within limits), etc... but you know what, either you do it or you can't do it. there are two ways i look at it. manufacturers can have their most talented drivers who are most familiar with their cars, getting the best time that no other general drivers can do. that's totally fine with me. coz' that shows what car + driver can do.
on the other hand, any random magazine review, using same set of drivers across ALL cars, that's another great reference point, coz' driver is "fixed" and that shows the potential of the car.
either way i think it's valuable data, trying to dis-credit any results otherwise is more like in denial.
heck, at the end of the day, we just need to think back. for the longest time, people talk about 0-60 performance, and up till today it's still a very critical measurement people refer to all the time. but who talks about the "metric"? what temperature? what condition? what tires? what time of the day? no one is questioning that anymore, i bet they all can make 100s of a sec difference. but yes, we have grown to accept the numbers and some start to average out the numbers and draw a more "generic" results. manufacturers can put out some stupidly fast numbers no one can replicate. but over time, different drivers do it and the average time appears, and that becomes the norm we refer to
isn't that the EXACT same thing going on here with the ring time?
j/ki guess my position is a bit different. do i care about ring time? honestly not so much at all. do i read about ring times? sure, when available, why not.
nissan doesn't release the spec v time, true, but that's how they choose to do the marketing. they just never focus on that at all (for whatever reason). and they focus on it a lot for their normal gtr. yup, can be a lot of tricky condition, but they did it and marketing is working for them so far (you can't deny it, considering the fact that people are debating about ring time so often now).
for lexus? personally i still think they never try to focus that much on the ring time. however they put too much emphasis on that this is the best track car out there, performance is off the hook, etc... AND their own driving putting up enormous hype when they said ring time 7:20 (or below?). starting from THAT moment, lexus got themselves into trouble, coz' people started talking (just look at all those who talk about in the lfa thread, either pro or against it). and i have bee saying it, unless there is a lfa by any drivers doing that time putting it up as official, lexus did something pretty bad
and partly coz' of that, when ring times start to appear, disappointments pour in fast. reasons and excuses arise fast as well. but bottom line is we are seeing big difference in the ring time from what lexus was claiming. yup, to me that's a mystery, and it's up to lexus to clear.
regarding ring time, think of it this way. yup, the fastest ring time could be under very discrete condition, time, temperature, humidity, tire choice (within limits), etc... but you know what, either you do it or you can't do it. there are two ways i look at it. manufacturers can have their most talented drivers who are most familiar with their cars, getting the best time that no other general drivers can do. that's totally fine with me. coz' that shows what car + driver can do.
on the other hand, any random magazine review, using same set of drivers across ALL cars, that's another great reference point, coz' driver is "fixed" and that shows the potential of the car.
either way i think it's valuable data, trying to dis-credit any results otherwise is more like in denial.
heck, at the end of the day, we just need to think back. for the longest time, people talk about 0-60 performance, and up till today it's still a very critical measurement people refer to all the time. but who talks about the "metric"? what temperature? what condition? what tires? what time of the day? no one is questioning that anymore, i bet they all can make 100s of a sec difference. but yes, we have grown to accept the numbers and some start to average out the numbers and draw a more "generic" results. manufacturers can put out some stupidly fast numbers no one can replicate. but over time, different drivers do it and the average time appears, and that becomes the norm we refer to
isn't that the EXACT same thing going on here with the ring time?
10-18-10, 09:13 AM
#19
Wait, so is this a thread about the new 2012 GTR, or is it really just a thread whining about the lack of an official LFA Nür time? I think we need a thread retitle here?
Of course it's "more meaningful" than straight line acceleration. The problem is that it's still not meaningful in measuring a car's driving characteristics.
Of course it's "more meaningful" than straight line acceleration. The problem is that it's still not meaningful in measuring a car's driving characteristics.
10-18-10, 09:40 AM
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
HAHHAHAHAA mike need some serious spanking j/k
i guess my position is a bit different. do i care about ring time? honestly not so much at all. do i read about ring times? sure, when available, why not.
nissan doesn't release the spec v time, true, but that's how they choose to do the marketing. they just never focus on that at all (for whatever reason). and they focus on it a lot for their normal gtr. yup, can be a lot of tricky condition, but they did it and marketing is working for them so far (you can't deny it, considering the fact that people are debating about ring time so often now).
for lexus? personally i still think they never try to focus that much on the ring time. however they put too much emphasis on that this is the best track car out there, performance is off the hook, etc... AND their own driving putting up enormous hype when they said ring time 7:20 (or below?). starting from THAT moment, lexus got themselves into trouble, coz' people started talking (just look at all those who talk about in the lfa thread, either pro or against it). and i have bee saying it, unless there is a lfa by any drivers doing that time putting it up as official, lexus did something pretty bad
and partly coz' of that, when ring times start to appear, disappointments pour in fast. reasons and excuses arise fast as well. but bottom line is we are seeing big difference in the ring time from what lexus was claiming. yup, to me that's a mystery, and it's up to lexus to clear.
regarding ring time, think of it this way. yup, the fastest ring time could be under very discrete condition, time, temperature, humidity, tire choice (within limits), etc... but you know what, either you do it or you can't do it. there are two ways i look at it. manufacturers can have their most talented drivers who are most familiar with their cars, getting the best time that no other general drivers can do. that's totally fine with me. coz' that shows what car + driver can do.
on the other hand, any random magazine review, using same set of drivers across ALL cars, that's another great reference point, coz' driver is "fixed" and that shows the potential of the car.
either way i think it's valuable data, trying to dis-credit any results otherwise is more like in denial.
heck, at the end of the day, we just need to think back. for the longest time, people talk about 0-60 performance, and up till today it's still a very critical measurement people refer to all the time. but who talks about the "metric"? what temperature? what condition? what tires? what time of the day? no one is questioning that anymore, i bet they all can make 100s of a sec difference. but yes, we have grown to accept the numbers and some start to average out the numbers and draw a more "generic" results. manufacturers can put out some stupidly fast numbers no one can replicate. but over time, different drivers do it and the average time appears, and that becomes the norm we refer to
isn't that the EXACT same thing going on here with the ring time?
j/ki guess my position is a bit different. do i care about ring time? honestly not so much at all. do i read about ring times? sure, when available, why not.
nissan doesn't release the spec v time, true, but that's how they choose to do the marketing. they just never focus on that at all (for whatever reason). and they focus on it a lot for their normal gtr. yup, can be a lot of tricky condition, but they did it and marketing is working for them so far (you can't deny it, considering the fact that people are debating about ring time so often now).
for lexus? personally i still think they never try to focus that much on the ring time. however they put too much emphasis on that this is the best track car out there, performance is off the hook, etc... AND their own driving putting up enormous hype when they said ring time 7:20 (or below?). starting from THAT moment, lexus got themselves into trouble, coz' people started talking (just look at all those who talk about in the lfa thread, either pro or against it). and i have bee saying it, unless there is a lfa by any drivers doing that time putting it up as official, lexus did something pretty bad
and partly coz' of that, when ring times start to appear, disappointments pour in fast. reasons and excuses arise fast as well. but bottom line is we are seeing big difference in the ring time from what lexus was claiming. yup, to me that's a mystery, and it's up to lexus to clear.
regarding ring time, think of it this way. yup, the fastest ring time could be under very discrete condition, time, temperature, humidity, tire choice (within limits), etc... but you know what, either you do it or you can't do it. there are two ways i look at it. manufacturers can have their most talented drivers who are most familiar with their cars, getting the best time that no other general drivers can do. that's totally fine with me. coz' that shows what car + driver can do.
on the other hand, any random magazine review, using same set of drivers across ALL cars, that's another great reference point, coz' driver is "fixed" and that shows the potential of the car.
either way i think it's valuable data, trying to dis-credit any results otherwise is more like in denial.
heck, at the end of the day, we just need to think back. for the longest time, people talk about 0-60 performance, and up till today it's still a very critical measurement people refer to all the time. but who talks about the "metric"? what temperature? what condition? what tires? what time of the day? no one is questioning that anymore, i bet they all can make 100s of a sec difference. but yes, we have grown to accept the numbers and some start to average out the numbers and draw a more "generic" results. manufacturers can put out some stupidly fast numbers no one can replicate. but over time, different drivers do it and the average time appears, and that becomes the norm we refer to
isn't that the EXACT same thing going on here with the ring time?
. I wonder will Porsche question it again? Your points are great as there is no standard way to get the times. I figure the best times would be reached using a factory driver that knows the car and not an independent test. Maybe Sabine behind the wheel of each car is the best way but that will never happen.
With a 7:20 Nissan has made pretty much all exotics look slow here. The performance/price continues to boggle the mind.
10-18-10, 09:57 AM
#21
Pole Position
Whats amazing is how the times are lowering all the time. I mean 7:20 was unheard of a few years ago. That time is INSANE . I wonder will Porsche question it again?
Your points are great as there is no standard way to get the times. I figure the best times would be reached using a factory driver that knows the car and not an independent test. Maybe Sabine behind the wheel of each car is the best way but that will never happen.
With a 7:20 Nissan has made pretty much all exotics look slow here. The performance/price continues to boggle the mind.
. I wonder will Porsche question it again? Your points are great as there is no standard way to get the times. I figure the best times would be reached using a factory driver that knows the car and not an independent test. Maybe Sabine behind the wheel of each car is the best way but that will never happen.
With a 7:20 Nissan has made pretty much all exotics look slow here. The performance/price continues to boggle the mind.
2012 GT-R is great piece of automotive. Hopefully it pushes other sub $100K sportscars even more to get better performance and justify the pricetag. But this time I guess GT-R will barely be sub $100K
10-18-10, 12:25 PM
#22
Whats amazing is how the times are lowering all the time. I mean 7:20 was unheard of a few years ago. That time is INSANE . I wonder will Porsche question it again?
Your points are great as there is no standard way to get the times. I figure the best times would be reached using a factory driver that knows the car and not an independent test. Maybe Sabine behind the wheel of each car is the best way but that will never happen.
With a 7:20 Nissan has made pretty much all exotics look slow here. The performance/price continues to boggle the mind.
. I wonder will Porsche question it again? Your points are great as there is no standard way to get the times. I figure the best times would be reached using a factory driver that knows the car and not an independent test. Maybe Sabine behind the wheel of each car is the best way but that will never happen.
With a 7:20 Nissan has made pretty much all exotics look slow here. The performance/price continues to boggle the mind.
and yup, your suggestion works perfectly fine with me. lexus put their driver and whatever factory options allowed to give it the fastest time, and see what we get.
10-18-10, 04:19 PM
#24
Apparently I misunderstood the meaning of the Japanese on the official GT-R website. It actually says 7:20 "range", meaning anywhere from 7:20 to 7:29, not 7:20.
In Chapter 5 of the following video it then reveals that the new fastest lap time of the GT-R is in fact 7:24.22.
http://www.nissan.co.jp/GT-R/world_point1.html
In Chapter 5 of the following video it then reveals that the new fastest lap time of the GT-R is in fact 7:24.22.
http://www.nissan.co.jp/GT-R/world_point1.html
10-18-10, 06:38 PM
#25
Lexus Test Driver
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10-19-10, 01:44 AM
#28
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If you noticed my criticisms have always been directed at Lexus's marketing, not the car. In fact I'm a big fan of the LFA. I love almost every aspect of the LFA (except the looks which I think could've been even better with the LF-A Concept II thrown in). I just don't understand why Lexus has to be so timid in marketing the performance side of their performance flagship. Sure, no one has driven a production LFA yet, but that doesn't mean they don't have production-spec'd prototypes to show. In fact, all the 'Ring times published by various manufacturers have always been from production-spec'd prototypes and not actual production cars. Sure, Lexus may still be "fine-tuning" the production LFA even at this stage, but sub-7:20 is sub-7:20, and that was a full year ago (the chief engineer's comment was originally published by InsideLine on Oct 21, 2009, when the production LFA was revealed to the world). If they achieved such a milestone then, show it. If they manage to improve the car even further over the year, great, show it some more; if not, at least they showed what they already achieved a year ago.
Patience would be wise only if the competitions were standing still. They're not.
Patience would be wise only if the competitions were standing still. They're not.
Can we stop with this 'Ring obsession?
Can you tell me what the official Audi R8 ring time is? I honestly don't know if there is one, and I haven't checked. If there is, Audi has not marketed it at all, yet the R8 is selling VERY well given the segment/price range its competing in.
The GT-R, despite all the 'Ring hype and marketing, is NOT selling that well for a vehicle of its class/price range. Now we find out the 2011 GT-R is only barely faster than the 2010 model on the 'Ring and Nissan overhyped things.
Lexus has done PLENTY of marketing with the LFA.
This includes:
- official LFA commercials
- LFA appearances at all major autoshows
- Numerous track events where the LFA was present, and some that had ride-alongs with Scott Pruett
- private events/galas with the LFA
- surprise public appearances of the LFA including at events like Cars and Coffee and on some school campuses
- appearances at several major Lexus dealerships across the US
- multiple appearances at European and Japanese race tracks with preview drives being given to journalists and major automotive publications
All of this is impressive, considering the car is not even out yet.
Furthermore, the 'Ring is only ONE track. To get a REAL sense of a supercar's performance, you need a supercar comparison. Things like testing at multiple tracks, running 0-125 mph-0 tests, doing 70-0 and 100 mph-0 braking tests. Also things such as repeated braking and fade tests.
Big difference. 0-60 is very easy to understand, most average people know what it means. Also during testing, it happens almost instantaneously.
In comparison the Nordschleife is 12.9 miles long. It takes for just about any production car over 7 minutes just to complete ONE lap. The track is so long and covers such a large geographical area that it has its own micro-climate. Often it can be sunny in one part of the track, and raining in the other part of the track. It could be windy in one part of the track, while calm in the other part of the track.
With such a large and long track, and a long amount of time that it takes just to complete one lap, there are a HUGE amount of variables that affect the time of just ONE lap (with the same car, and same driver).
Compare this to 0-60 times, where there are a lot less variables that can affect the times of one run.
Comparing 'Ring times of different cars, based on times that were achieved on different days with different drivers is extremely complex, much more complicated and less accurate than comparing 0-60 times.
10-19-10, 07:40 AM
#30
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I do believe for a car like the GT-R track times are important since there is a greater chance they will see the track. However it is ridiculous to see track times and reviews about how fast they drive/handle for cars that have intention of seeing the track and seeing the internet pissing contest ensue "the Corolla sucks b/c the Civic can lap the Nurburgring in 24 minutes and the Corolla 25 minutes"
(fyi OP that is not directed to you)