Cadillac: The General's Red-Headed Step Child?
11-30-10, 05:36 AM
#16
Both Buick and Caddy were making really subpar products in the past couple decades. However Buick never lost its loyal customer base - mostly older folks, who were looking for soft, numb ride, and were willing to overlook poor assembly and material qualities. Especially as most other manufacturers decided that every car needs to become a sports sedan, Buick was pretty much the only one producing cars that drove like boats.
Cadillac however completely lost the prestige it has established in the past. Not many luxury buyers would even consider Cadillac today - they simply go to the established brands. GM has a long and tough battle ahead of them if they want Caddy to succeed.
Cadillac however completely lost the prestige it has established in the past. Not many luxury buyers would even consider Cadillac today - they simply go to the established brands. GM has a long and tough battle ahead of them if they want Caddy to succeed.
11-30-10, 05:42 AM
#17
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the current CTS is a very nice car. the rest of the line... meh.
however, i'd never buy a car from a company and a corrupt union bailed out by $50bn of taxpayer money that will NEVER be paid back. gm should have gone out of business.
the next epic failure... volt.
however, i'd never buy a car from a company and a corrupt union bailed out by $50bn of taxpayer money that will NEVER be paid back. gm should have gone out of business.
the next epic failure... volt.
11-30-10, 06:02 AM
#19
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I don't see Buick and Cadillac sharing the same space at all. It's really two clear cut and distinct brands.
In a way, it's odd to have two brands in the upscale arena but I wouldn't say Buick is a full fledged luxury brand. They specialize in "pre-luxury" in large packages. And they seem to appeal to a unique set of buyers. It also acts as the bridge between Chevy and Cadillac.
Cadillac is clearly a luxury brand. It needs improvement indeed, but there's potential to save it. They properly start at the low end of the luxury market at around $33K. Buick plays in the $20K range of the market.
Never mind that Cadillac has attempted to become a sport-luxury brand to fight the Europeans. That is a very different flavor than Buick. The CTS is a great effort, with some unfortunate reliability flaws. Where Caddy needs the most work is with their large sedans. The DTS, or whatever name they run with needs a substantial upgrade. And really, they need two models above the CTS. One to compete with the 5/E/GS and one to battle the 7/S/LS (although this is not likely). LOL at the fact that Hyundai (Equus) plays against this top end class, but Cadillac doesn't.
They're calling themselves the new standard of the world again yet they don't play with the big boys. If they want real expect again, they're going to have to put everything they've got into a tier one car.
In a way, it's odd to have two brands in the upscale arena but I wouldn't say Buick is a full fledged luxury brand. They specialize in "pre-luxury" in large packages. And they seem to appeal to a unique set of buyers. It also acts as the bridge between Chevy and Cadillac.
Cadillac is clearly a luxury brand. It needs improvement indeed, but there's potential to save it. They properly start at the low end of the luxury market at around $33K. Buick plays in the $20K range of the market.
Never mind that Cadillac has attempted to become a sport-luxury brand to fight the Europeans. That is a very different flavor than Buick. The CTS is a great effort, with some unfortunate reliability flaws. Where Caddy needs the most work is with their large sedans. The DTS, or whatever name they run with needs a substantial upgrade. And really, they need two models above the CTS. One to compete with the 5/E/GS and one to battle the 7/S/LS (although this is not likely). LOL at the fact that Hyundai (Equus) plays against this top end class, but Cadillac doesn't.
They're calling themselves the new standard of the world again yet they don't play with the big boys. If they want real expect again, they're going to have to put everything they've got into a tier one car.
11-30-10, 06:10 AM
#20
^Cadillac has pretty much acknowledged that the CTS is their midsize car and competes against the 5, E, et al. It has played the 'tweener part for the last two generations but with the ATS and XTS coming, Cadillac execs have made several comments about the next gen becoming a true midsize.
http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/c...roduction.html
Cadillac ATS Bound for Production
Published Oct 28, 2010
Just the Facts:
* Cadillac confirmed production of a "new Cadillac model," commonly referred to as the ATS.
* The car will be rear-wheel-drive and was designed in the U.S.
* It will compete with the BMW 3 Series and Mercedes C-Class.
LANSING, Michigan — Cadillac on Thursday confirmed production of a "new Cadillac model," commonly referred to as the ATS and set to compete with the BMW 3 Series and Mercedes-Benz C-Class. But details about the compact car that slots in below the Cadillac CTS — the smallest vehicle in the Cadillac lineup — were sparse.
"I can't confirm timing, any product details or even the name," said Cadillac spokesman Nick Twork in a phone conversation with Inside Line early Thursday afternoon. "But right now, because the CTS competes with the 5 Series and E-Class, we don't compete in one of the largest volume segments in the market. In order to increase market share, we need more volume."
Twork did confirm that the baby Cadillac will have rear-wheel drive and has been designed in the U.S. He also said it will undergo testing at the Nürburgring at an unspecified date.
Twork would not comment on pricing on the new model, but presumably it would be cheaper than the base 2011 CTS, which starts at $35,990, including an $825 destination charge.
A four-door showcar ATS has been expected to debut at the 2010 Los Angeles Auto Show, but Twork would not confirm when the vehicle will debut. He would also not confirm reports that it will be a 2012 model that will include wagon, coupe and convertible variants. It is expected to be similar in size to the Cadillac BLS sold in Europe.
GM on Thursday said it will invest $190 million in its Lansing Grand River assembly plant to build the new Cadillac model.
"America's fastest-growing luxury brand this year is about to get even more competitive with the addition of an all-new small luxury car," said GM CEO Dan Akerson in a statement.
Published Oct 28, 2010
Just the Facts:
* Cadillac confirmed production of a "new Cadillac model," commonly referred to as the ATS.
* The car will be rear-wheel-drive and was designed in the U.S.
* It will compete with the BMW 3 Series and Mercedes C-Class.
LANSING, Michigan — Cadillac on Thursday confirmed production of a "new Cadillac model," commonly referred to as the ATS and set to compete with the BMW 3 Series and Mercedes-Benz C-Class. But details about the compact car that slots in below the Cadillac CTS — the smallest vehicle in the Cadillac lineup — were sparse.
"I can't confirm timing, any product details or even the name," said Cadillac spokesman Nick Twork in a phone conversation with Inside Line early Thursday afternoon. "But right now, because the CTS competes with the 5 Series and E-Class, we don't compete in one of the largest volume segments in the market. In order to increase market share, we need more volume."
Twork did confirm that the baby Cadillac will have rear-wheel drive and has been designed in the U.S. He also said it will undergo testing at the Nürburgring at an unspecified date.
Twork would not comment on pricing on the new model, but presumably it would be cheaper than the base 2011 CTS, which starts at $35,990, including an $825 destination charge.
A four-door showcar ATS has been expected to debut at the 2010 Los Angeles Auto Show, but Twork would not confirm when the vehicle will debut. He would also not confirm reports that it will be a 2012 model that will include wagon, coupe and convertible variants. It is expected to be similar in size to the Cadillac BLS sold in Europe.
GM on Thursday said it will invest $190 million in its Lansing Grand River assembly plant to build the new Cadillac model.
"America's fastest-growing luxury brand this year is about to get even more competitive with the addition of an all-new small luxury car," said GM CEO Dan Akerson in a statement.
Last edited by MPLexus301; 11-30-10 at 06:15 AM.
11-30-10, 06:23 AM
#21
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While being owned by GM means no way I'm buying it I like the focus put into the CTS and Escalade. The GM team seems to know what they want to do with those vehicles and it shows, they are pretty good and sell very well.
The Escalade is the face of the brand, a good thing and a bad thing. Good b/c its bold and brash and is bought by celebrities and gets a lot of exposure. Bad for those same reasons.
The CTS is a "tweener" and I think moving it up will not fare well. People like a car and its price point and they start to balk when the price goes up for a familiar name. I think it will remain a tweener.
Above the CTS is the DTS. I have no issues with it and quite frankly I wish Caddy would EMBRACE their popularity for cushy cars instead of trying to just go sporty. They should keep the DTS and make a new one, it is VERY popular still.
The STS sadly turned into an also-ran and is rarely mentioned and never sold well outside of EMPLOYEE PRICING. They should keep the name STS and just make it a big bad *** car to fight the LS/S/A8.
Instead the FWD XTS is coming. Another new dumb name and FWD flagship? Uhhh no.
Now I think recently they got approval for a big V-12 or some big new halo. I think they need one but they need to EXECUTE PERFECTLY and not have another flop like the XLR.
As for the ATS do people really want small CAddy's? I'm not so sure.
Buick as bitkahuna mentioned is entry level luxury only like Acura. I think they do a good job there and sell very well for only having 4 models. I don't really see the two fighting head on much to be honest.
Ironically Buick's China lineup is pretty damn good!
The Escalade is the face of the brand, a good thing and a bad thing. Good b/c its bold and brash and is bought by celebrities and gets a lot of exposure. Bad for those same reasons.
The CTS is a "tweener" and I think moving it up will not fare well. People like a car and its price point and they start to balk when the price goes up for a familiar name. I think it will remain a tweener.
Above the CTS is the DTS. I have no issues with it and quite frankly I wish Caddy would EMBRACE their popularity for cushy cars instead of trying to just go sporty. They should keep the DTS and make a new one, it is VERY popular still.
The STS sadly turned into an also-ran and is rarely mentioned and never sold well outside of EMPLOYEE PRICING. They should keep the name STS and just make it a big bad *** car to fight the LS/S/A8.
Instead the FWD XTS is coming. Another new dumb name and FWD flagship? Uhhh no.
Now I think recently they got approval for a big V-12 or some big new halo. I think they need one but they need to EXECUTE PERFECTLY and not have another flop like the XLR.
As for the ATS do people really want small CAddy's? I'm not so sure.
Buick as bitkahuna mentioned is entry level luxury only like Acura. I think they do a good job there and sell very well for only having 4 models. I don't really see the two fighting head on much to be honest.
Ironically Buick's China lineup is pretty damn good!
Last edited by LexFather; 11-30-10 at 06:27 AM.
11-30-10, 06:52 AM
#22
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^Cadillac has pretty much acknowledged that the CTS is their midsize car and competes against the 5, E, et al. It has played the 'tweener part for the last two generations but with the ATS and XTS coming, Cadillac execs have made several comments about the next gen becoming a true midsize.
I don't buy the idea that the CTS competes with the E-Class/5-Series. Definitely not price wise anyway. Price points are more in line with the 3 & C.
Maybe that just means that the E and 5 are way overpriced?
The E-class STARTS at $50K. Over $15K more than a base CTS. The C-Class is priced right with the CTS.I find it interesting that people downgrade the Acura TL here all the time down to the 3/C class when it is exactly positioned with the CTS which is between $35K-and $44K (although there is a premium CTS up around $49K and not counting the V). The TL is even 4" bigger than the CTS. So how can everyone say the TL competes with the entry level luxury cars but the CTS competes with the mid-level cars? If anything, they are both positioned between the typical classes. Cadillac just needs to make this more clear especially if they come along with the ATS. They'll have to move the CTS up.
11-30-10, 06:56 AM
#23
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Well, as we know, China is Buick's strongest market. To them, it's one of THE cars to have. I think that would be a fitting lineup right here in the US. I think GM would like Buick to have that large of a line up here as well.
11-30-10, 06:57 AM
#24
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I don't buy the idea that the CTS competes with the E-Class/5-Series. Definitely not price wise anyway. Price points are more in line with the 3 & C.
Maybe that just means that the E and 5 are way overpriced? The E-class STARTS at $50K. Over $15K more than a base CTS. The C-Class is priced right with the CTS.
I find it interesting that people downgrade the Acura TL here all the time down to the 3/C class when it is exactly positioned with the CTS which is between $35K-and $44K (although there is a premium CTS up around $49K and not counting the V). The TL is even 4" bigger than the CTS. So how can everyone say the TL competes with the entry level luxury cars but the CTS competes with the mid-level cars? If anything, they are both positioned between the typical classes. Cadillac just needs to make this more clear especially if they come along with the ATS. They'll have to move the CTS up.
Maybe that just means that the E and 5 are way overpriced?
The E-class STARTS at $50K. Over $15K more than a base CTS. The C-Class is priced right with the CTS.I find it interesting that people downgrade the Acura TL here all the time down to the 3/C class when it is exactly positioned with the CTS which is between $35K-and $44K (although there is a premium CTS up around $49K and not counting the V). The TL is even 4" bigger than the CTS. So how can everyone say the TL competes with the entry level luxury cars but the CTS competes with the mid-level cars? If anything, they are both positioned between the typical classes. Cadillac just needs to make this more clear especially if they come along with the ATS. They'll have to move the CTS up.
TL is like an ES, Accord/Camry based and 35-45k cars. Both entry level luxury, they just are big cars.
CTS is RWD and is a 40k-60k car. CTS also offers the CTS-V 555hp supercharged V-8. TL is not close to it.
Also note the TL has NEVER been in a comparison against the GS/5/E class but the CTS has in some comparos. The CTS has even battled the RL in comparos.
11-30-10, 06:57 AM
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Wait, Cadillac wants to move the CTS upmarket? I think that is a bad idea.
So will the ATS then take the place of the CTS? If the CTS moves upmarket, where does the XTS fit in? Would ATS be entry-level, CTS mid, and XTS the flagship? Except, the XTS is going to be FWD-based, so that's an automatic flop for a luxury flagship.
It seems Cadillac is lost. A proper flagship needs to be RWD, period.
So will the ATS then take the place of the CTS? If the CTS moves upmarket, where does the XTS fit in? Would ATS be entry-level, CTS mid, and XTS the flagship? Except, the XTS is going to be FWD-based, so that's an automatic flop for a luxury flagship.
It seems Cadillac is lost. A proper flagship needs to be RWD, period.
11-30-10, 07:54 AM
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I agree the CTS is a "tweener" but it is superior to the TL.
TL is like an ES, Accord/Camry based and 35-45k cars. Both entry level luxury, they just are big cars.
CTS is RWD and is a 40k-60k car. CTS also offers the CTS-V 555hp supercharged V-8. TL is not close to it.
Also note the TL has NEVER been in a comparison against the GS/5/E class but the CTS has in some comparos. The CTS has even battled the RL in comparos.
TL is like an ES, Accord/Camry based and 35-45k cars. Both entry level luxury, they just are big cars.
CTS is RWD and is a 40k-60k car. CTS also offers the CTS-V 555hp supercharged V-8. TL is not close to it.
Also note the TL has NEVER been in a comparison against the GS/5/E class but the CTS has in some comparos. The CTS has even battled the RL in comparos.
You can always option out cars which throws them into the next class if your talking price. Just as you can pay $60K for a C-class or 3-series or get cars in a higher class.
Point is, is that a class is defined by a starting point, not necessarily defined by all the expensive options.
Yes, the CTS and TL are kind of "tweeners", but they do indeed compete in the entry level luxury market that is bench marked/defined by the C-class and 3-series.
11-30-10, 08:08 AM
#27
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I just think that cars should be compared (when classifying) by its STARTING price point. The CTS does have a wide range but the fact is is that it starts at $35K. The 3-series and C-class start just slightly below, but the 5 starts at $46K, and the E at $50K.
You can always option out cars which throws them into the next class if your talking price. Just as you can pay $60K for a C-class or 3-series or get cars in a higher class.
Point is, is that a class is defined by a starting point, not necessarily defined by all the expensive options.
Yes, the CTS and TL are kind of "tweeners", but they do indeed compete in the entry level luxury market that is bench marked/defined by the C-class and 3-series.
You can always option out cars which throws them into the next class if your talking price. Just as you can pay $60K for a C-class or 3-series or get cars in a higher class.
Point is, is that a class is defined by a starting point, not necessarily defined by all the expensive options.
Yes, the CTS and TL are kind of "tweeners", but they do indeed compete in the entry level luxury market that is bench marked/defined by the C-class and 3-series.
The TL is a Accord based car like the ES is a Camry based car. The TL is an entry level car and has ALWAYS been a big car for its price like the ES has been. We never bump the ES up into a higher segment, the TL shouldn't be bumped either. Again neither ES or TL have ever been compared to the CTS or the GS, RL, A5, 5, E, XF in ANY comparison.
I agree I don't see the CTS as a GS/A6/5/E etc competitor head on, its a tweener to me but it is a niche higher than the TL and ES.
11-30-10, 08:19 AM
#29
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I agree to an extent but the CTS is again RWD, is not Malibu based and again offers a V-8.
The TL is a Accord based car like the ES is a Camry based car. The TL is an entry level car and has ALWAYS been a big car for its price like the ES has been. We never bump the ES up into a higher segment, the TL shouldn't be bumped either. Again neither ES or TL have ever been compared to the CTS or the GS, RL, A5, 5, E, XF in ANY comparison.
I agree I don't see the CTS as a GS/A6/5/E etc competitor head on, its a tweener to me but it is a niche higher than the TL and ES.
The TL is a Accord based car like the ES is a Camry based car. The TL is an entry level car and has ALWAYS been a big car for its price like the ES has been. We never bump the ES up into a higher segment, the TL shouldn't be bumped either. Again neither ES or TL have ever been compared to the CTS or the GS, RL, A5, 5, E, XF in ANY comparison.
I agree I don't see the CTS as a GS/A6/5/E etc competitor head on, its a tweener to me but it is a niche higher than the TL and ES.
Thing is you could also look at it this way.
Base TL engine = 3.5 280 hp v6
Base CTS engine = 3.0 270 hp V6
And of course the TL is available in AWD as the CTS is.
Not trying to prop up the TL, just putting both cars in perspective. I personally like the CTS a lot more.
11-30-10, 12:24 PM
#30
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However Buick never lost its loyal customer base - mostly older folks, who were looking for soft, numb ride, and were willing to overlook poor assembly and material qualities.
Especially as most other manufacturers decided that every car needs to become a sports sedan, Buick was pretty much the only one producing cars that drove like boats.
Especially as most other manufacturers decided that every car needs to become a sports sedan, Buick was pretty much the only one producing cars that drove like boats.
Cadillac however completely lost the prestige it has established in the past.
Last edited by mmarshall; 11-30-10 at 12:28 PM.