MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

This is something that I've been going back and forth on for a while now - watching commercials, analyzing sales statistics, reading press releases, etc - but is Buick coming on too strong, too fast when you consider the brand's placement within GM's portfolio?

I pose this question in the context of Cadillac, not as a broad conversation on whether or not Buick is successful, which it obviously is!

Cadillac is a fragile brand - riddled with a number of flopped models in the last ten years (XLR, STS, prev SRX) and a lineup that now consists mostly of rebadged GM products outside of the CTS. It's no secret that Cadillac has spent much of the recent decade trying to rebuild it's image and regain customer loyalty, but as of late, Buick seems to have come from left field and stolen the thunder with Caddy watching in the background. Looking to the future, the Escalade is widely rumored to move to the Acadia/Enclave chassis and the upcoming XTS flagship will be an FWD-based AWD architecture, developed jointly with the next Lucerne and Impala. ATS was recently confirmed as RWD which is good news, but is Cadillac really that much more "premium" than Buick? That's a loaded question that considers several different components, but I wonder if Cadillac will be considered a legitimate Tier 1 or 2 brand, or significantly better than Buick, if the game plays out like GM has hinted.

ATS/CTS - share a modified RWD chassis similar to the IS/GS
XTS - As mentioned above, Impala/Lucerne rebadge
Escalade - presently a Tahoe rebadge, probably moving to an Enclave rebadge
SRX - Equinox rebadge

Buick has the new Regal, successful LaCrosse and Enclave, and is slated to get a new Lucerne when Cadillac gets the XTS. Buick went from life support to life of the party and shows no signs of slowing down, whereas it seems like the Cadillac camp has been slowly running out of steam in recent years.

A few things to consider:

Marketing: "New Class of World Class" vs. "New Standard of the World". These two slogans are nearly interchangeable and at least insinuate that Buick is a world class luxury brand, the segment where Cadillac should technically compete.

Platforms: I'm all for platform sharing and badge engineering when done right, but if Buicks and Cadillacs start sharing engines, technology and platforms, and merely relying on styling to differentiate them, is that enough?

FWD vs. RWD: With the ATS and CTS, Cadillac will have some RWD products whereas Buick will not. Lucerne will likely be FWD whereas the XTS will be standard AWD. Point for point, that means ATS and Regal in similar classes, LaCrosse and CTS, and Lucerne and XTS. How can GM position each of these to be uniquely different? Performance seems like the most obvious answer.

Luxury vs. Sport: Cadillac obviously wants to be seen as the sportier of the two, and with V models to back up that claim there is little to find fault with. However, these are hardly your grandpa's Buick and are competent, reasonable cars to drive. Don't forget the Regal GS either. If the Escalade/Enclave and XTS/Lucerne start sharing platforms and technology...will it make a difference? (Consider that those are Caddy's flagship products).

I'm fully expecting that price, materials, technology and styling will play a big part in establishing Cadillac as the true premium brand in GM's stable, but when you stand back and consider the facts and rumors, it looks like Caddy and Buick will be more closely related than they ever have been. I also realize that the effects of any strategy will take a long time to see, but do wonder if the public will effectively buy into "Cadillac is premium vs. Buick is not" when the time comes.

Thoughts?

PhilipMSPT

iTrader: (5)

When GM decided to kill off Pontiac and Saturn over Buick (while Cadillac lives on), I knew there were gonna be problems.

Cadillac and Buick were both luxury brands. GM has SUV/trucks; Chevy had everyday cars. But GM didn't need two luxury brands.

Their products compete with one another, which is always bad for the business.

GM would have been better off keeping either Pontiac (a sportier brand) or the "old" Saturn (an economical "value" brand) over Buick.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I agree, Phil. I'm waiting for someone to pipe in and say, "Well Toyota and Lexus do it, so I'm sure Buick and Caddy can too," but I didn't mention Chevrolet in my original post very much. There is a much wider gap between Toyota and Lexus than there is between Chevy and Buick, or Buick and Cadillac IMO. Obviously, because of this, Buick faces in-house competition and the top and bottom ends of the market.

Since GM is still trying to get it's ducks in a row from bankruptcy and restructuring, it will be interesting to see how this plays out long term.

TRDFantasy

By positioning BOTH Cadillac and Buick as sporty luxury brands, GM is destined to fail.

GM should have kept Buick as a brand of comfortable luxury cars, while making sport the focus for Cadillac.

Also considering the fact that several Cadillac models will go "downmarket" (FWD vs RWD, more platform sharing between other GM brands vs less) the cross-shopping between Buick and Cadillac will only increase.

The real irony is that is seems future Cadillacs will share platforms with Chevy and GMC vehicles, while Buick will primarily share platforms with Opel. IMO, it should be the other way around.

PhilipMSPT

iTrader: (5)

Apples and oranges though.

Toyota is an mass market brand, whereas Lexus is in a luxury market. Shared platforms, such as of the Camry/ES and Highlander/RX, cater to different clientele. There are $15k+ price gaps between the Toyota/Lexus brands. Customer service/amenities are different.

Cadillac and Buick share the same market. Both are priced near one another, with Buick being less expensive due to FWD platforms. Customer service for both are identical.

I doubt that people look at Buick and see it as a mass market brand, nor an economy brand. Buick is somewhat niche, and it needs to be distinctive. I doubt that GM is going to dumb down Buick. And I also doubt that GM will make Cadillac more exclusive/pricey. GM will have to kill off one, and Cadillac seems to be the better racehorse...

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

Good points from both of you

LexFather

Good topic.. On my phone so will chime in later.

Correct mr if I am wrong but I believe Buick will offer a sub Regal car...

IS-SV

Good topic, because Caddy has very significant problems, (even if not as big as Lincoln's problems).

Buick is not over-stretching in it's near-lux category and is getting better traction with it's new products.

LexBob2

Sales YTD through Oct. for both divisions are strong. Especially Buick with fewer models than Caddy.

Buick 126,569 +55%
Cadillac 118,406 +40%

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

buick is near luxury, more like acura...
cadillac is going after mercedes (although it has a long way to go) with the 'V' models, broad range, but they still have no decent flagship.

caddyowner

Buick was the red-headed stepchild until the past couple years. I suspect the only thing that saved Buick was their success in China. They have some good products now and seem to be on the upswing.

Cadillac was reinvented in the Arts and Science theme starting with the CTS. Things were looking promising, but the other cars on the Sigma platform, STS and SRX, didn't sell well, the market moved away from the Escalade, and the DTS was allowed to languish. There were plans to move further up-market, but with no apparent money or firm backing from GM corporate.

I think Cadillac can achieve success, and they seem to be doing well with the new, but rebadged, SRX. They need to introduce great replacements for the DTS and Escalade. Most importantly, they need to capture the Chinese imagination as the logical step above Buick.

mmarshall

I agree.....but not for quite the same reasons you do.

What clearly saved both Cadillac AND Buick was the fact that the pundits were wrong about the buyer-bases. Although both divisions were, admittedly, popular with older buyers, neither division, as the auto press thought, was serving just a bunch of geezers, and the customer-base turned out to not all be dying off, as had been thought.

Actually, GM probably did the right thing dumping Pontiac, Saab, and Hummer, but should, IMO, have kept Saturn....and even better yet, made Saturn back into the customer-pleasing division it once was, before it became just a bunch of rebadged Opels. GMC trucks, as far as I'm concerned, is a wasted division, selling essentially the same products as Chevy Trucks. GM management could, IMO, have dumped GMC Trucks instead of Saturn, and never dould have have known the difference........the same trucks/vans/SUVs would still be available at Chevy.

Dumping Buick, though, IMO, would have been a disaster. In fact, one of the reasons for Buick's success is that they picked up a lot of ex-Olds customers when GM shut down that division. If Buick were to fold, where would many of the current Buick customers go? The most probable place, of course, would have been Mercury, but Ford, of course, has shut Mercury down....and at least some of the old Mercury customers are coming to Buick, though it is difficult to determine just how many.

LZMF1

i replaced my 07 denali with a gx470. my wife ended up buying the call of duty black ops jeep because she can't stand her 07 cts 4. both vehicles were riddled with strange electronic problems and all sorts of other problems. sadly, i think GM is doomed in general if their products keep having these "gremlin attacks".

the denali was leased and i was ecstatic when i turned it in almost a half a year early....i was happy pay the fees and to wash my hands of it. my wife is basically going to let the caddy sit in the driveway now that she has her new toy. that lease won't be up until september of next year.

mmarshall

Did you or your wife check Consumer Reports magazine before you got the CTS? CR has warned, for several years, about the generally poor reliability of the CTS. We have also discussed the matter here, in a number of CAR CHAT threads.

The new 2Gen '08-'10 CTS, BTW, still had a worse-than-average reliablity rating, but is a MUCH nicer car inside, with a vastly-improved interior, and with some of the best driving-dynamics outside a BMW. The 1Gen CTS (the '07, I believe, was the last year for that) was not only unreliable, but its dull-looking interior had a lot of cheap plastic junk.

Sens4Miles

yes, the Verano.. due out in '12

http://www.buick.com/vehicles/future...es/verano.html