gemigniani

Because I'm likely twice as old as you so I've witnessed how every car company that once dominated sales and then allowed interior and mechanical quality to slip never reversed itself and so never regained it's sales dominance.
This is true even of the European and Japanese companies; e.g. Volkswagen was once the dominant import but every VW model built after the Beetle has been unreliable, hence VW Sales tanked. In the late 60's and early 70's Nissan was the dominant Japanese car then Nissan let interior quality and mechanical reliability slip in the mid-70's which allowed Toyota to overtake it in sales. Nissan has never attempted to reverse itself to regain it's dominance (although admittedly, Nissan has improved interior furnishings in recent years which has helped the company regain some lost market share).

TRDFantasy

1.) Much of the competition has cheap looking and/or feeling interiors. Is Toyota BEHIND the industry average in terms of interiors like GM was back in the 80s and 90s? GM interiors were some of the worst in the industry back then.

2.) Do you have any PROOF of this? Lots of proof says Toyota durability and reliability has remained stable or flat over the past several years.

3.) Compared to ... what brands exactly? Toyotas are some of the most straightforward cars to work on mechanically. Don't believe me? Go talk to as many mechanics as you can and then see what they say.

4.) Skyrocketing ... compared to what?

Wow, so you've seen the next-gen Camry already and you're sure that it won't solve any of these problems?

I disagree. Sonata's styling is simply far too polarizing for America to embrace it as the #1 selling sedan. Sonata sales started hot earlier in the year, but they have cooled off the past few months. Sonata for 2-3 months now has been 5th best-seller in the class, behind not just the Camry and Accord but other competitors as well. For the first few months, the 2011 Sonata was the 3rd best-seller in the class.

Also keep in mind, three competitors that currently outsell the Sonata are all due to be redesigned soon. Those cars are the Camry, Accord, and Altima.

I predict Sonata sales to further drop to around the same level as the previous-gen model once the new Camry, Accord, and Altima hit the market.

Fizzboy7

"$133 a month with $1500 down?" That's what stripped Civics and Accents lease for. A sticker of $25k with little down and a low APR will usually lease for around $250/mo. There has to be some other parameters here to drop a $25k car to $133/mo.

-J-P-L-

Well, right now the Ford Fusion stands the closest to the Camry and Accord at least in that segment.

mmarshall

I agree, like you, that they blew the styling on the latest model, but the Sonata has gotten a good reputation in the market lately. And people often buy simply on past reputations alone, ignoring what the car has become in the present. I also agree, however, that the Fusion also stands a chance. And the Fusion, unlike the Sonata, offers an AWD option.

LexFather

We cannot compare GM to Toyota. Toyota actually ADMITTED mistakes and is trying to fix them. They are built on the idea of Kaizen, continuous improvement. We are not going to see Toyota basically suck for 30 years and need to be bailed out by the government. Toyota is far better managed than GM, even today.

I was one to think the Camry's days are numbered but looking at 2010, the toughest year for the car that I can remember it still was #1. The internet fanboi magazine darling Sonata didn't make a dent in Camry OR Accord sales. The Sonata is still way behind both.

The Camry continues to be a great car for most people, tons of room, good interior (to me), good powertrains, good looks.

Now unfortunately I've heard that the new Camry was shown to dealers this month and they HATED it and told Toyota they better go back to work.

mmarshall

The current GM Chairman has admitted a lot of past mistakes. His recent public conference several weeks ago, IMO, was quite impressive..........something I can't say for many of the people who have run that organization in the past. (I listened to the entire event).

I'm not sure that he has admitted a more recent (IMO) mistake, though......dumping Saturn. Saturn, IMO, should have been returned to the same superb, customer-pleasing, plastic-body small-car division it was in the 1990's, not just dumped altogether.

gemigniani

1) Compared to a Nissan Altima or Ford Fusion for starters. The Camry now has more hard plastic inside than those cars plus sneaky cost cutting measures are evident like shortened seat bottoms that compromise thigh support. Camry used to have sumptuous looking interiors, but not since 2007 and especially not since 1996.

2) Read Consumer Reports. Most Toyotas have declined in reliability from "much above average" to merely average or above average. The Camry V6
in 2007 was rated below average and the 4 cyl average. By 2010 the V6 had
improved only to average. Toyota dealership service bays have exploded in size because owners are having to take their cars to the dealership so often nowadays. Dealership service techs, especially the Mastertechs are making mega bucks from the service work they have now and so they own big homes, boats, etc. In the 70's and 80's Toyota service depts were lonely places because Toyotas rarely had mechanical problems that required dealership attention. Service techs back then made modest incomes.

3) Compared to Camry's of the past

4) Skyrocketing prices due to Toyota's standardizing of feature laden models. It's no longer possible to buy a plain Jane low priced Camry as it was in the 1990's. Toyotas are no longer cars that save the public money.

I'm saying these things not to put down Toyota, but only to explain why the Camry is not likely to be the top selling sedan by 2011 or 2012 or so.

-J-P-L-

We'll have to wait to see it to believe it. God I hope it's not true.

I can't believe Toyota would mess up on the most important sedan in the world. Up until now they've always played it safe and designed it for the masses. I'd expect the same strategy except with a bit more passion.

LexFather

Took them 30 years and a bailout to admit mistakes. Toyota is much smarter, they even acknowledged before the biggest threat is Hyundai. They don't manage with goggles on.

You make some good arguments but I'm going to have to dispute this one. The Ford Fusion's plastics are not much better and I assure you the Camry interior is still a full generation ahead of the Altima. My wife used to own one and while a good pedestrian car the interior was horrid in quality and materials and screamed cheap. Ergonomics were good though.

I really don't understand the bashing of the Camry interior, I think its fine for its price. It is better than the previous model and its not like there is an interior head and shoulders better than anyone in this class. The Sonata looks fresher and is more appealing to me but it still uses hard plastics. The Accord is my favorite to be honest and uses hard plastics. The Malibu is another solid interior that uses hard plastics.

bigbwb

Thats a bummer if true. I may have missed it, but when does the new Camry debut?

gemigniani

If you rented a new Altima I think you might be surprized at how its interior is softer and richer as compared to a new Camry. I agree previous generations of Altimas were cheap looking and feeling inside, but the newest generation is remarkably improved as is its seat comfort, ride comfort and quietness. In fact, Consumer Reports rated the newest generation Altima as tops in its class and Ford Fusion was #2. Nissan Versa also beat the Toyota Yaris in interior comfort, ride comfort, etc. in Consumer Reports tests. And Toyota's Corolla didn't do very well in Consumer Reports tests either whereas in the 80's and 90's the Corolla was always a top scorer. All this evidence, taken together, signals a likely decline in Toyotas future share of the automotive market.

The bashing of the 2007 on up Camry interior comes mainly from us older Toyota loyalists who fondly remember how comfortable and luxurious previous generations of Camry's were, especially the 1983-1996 models.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

I've been in a rental Altima for 4 weeks while my rear ended Camry is being repaired and finally done later this week.The Altima is no Camry when it come to smooth and quiet ride,not even close.The Altima is ride is busy and noisy.Interior quality stinks but I do have a base model.
I'm not a fan of the Altima at all.I do like the power of the 4 cyl,though.The car is quick with the four but the engine is very noisy.The CVT trans is nice too.

IS-SV

Dumping Saturn after years of losing billions of dollar is no mistake for any company that wants to make a consistent profit (for a change). (lol-ed when that go brought up again).

IMO the last thing any leading car maker wants is a line of low quality gutless plasticky cars with unacceptable safety like the past plastic-bodied Saturns.

I find Toyota's approach over the years with the Camry to be a model of success in comparison to anything GM has done for 2 decades.

mmarshall

I understand your views on this matter...we've discussed them before. Without getting too far off-topic, again I have to disagree. The plastic-bodied S-series had anything but unacceptable safety....that was one of the reasons (among several) for their great success. The space-frame, under the plastic panels, was extremely durable. I saw what was left of some that had been rolled/flipped several times and the occupants still walked away from them, with minimal injuries. The insurance companies loved them...you could see that in the extremely low rates they charged for Saturn S-series owners. And as for their "low quality", yes, they were plasticky, but their reliability rating, according to Consumer Reports, was consistantly above average, and, in the initial few years (1990-1995), ranked up with Toyota and Honda.

I can't think of an American-badged vehicle in my lifetime that produced more customer satisfaction for less money than the Saturn S-series. Over the years, I owned two of them myself.....an SL-2 sedan and a Special-Edition SC-2 coupe.


Again, I have to disagree, but only to an extent. GM has given us the current-generation Chevy Malibu....a car, that, IMO, outdoes the Camry in several areas. I find the Malibu, along with the new Buick LaCrosse, more impressive than almost anything I've seen from GM in years.