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C&D: Hyundai Equus tops the LS460L AWD

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Old 01-05-11, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TwiBlueG35
Has any Lexus/Toyota vehicles ever won any comparsion test in C&D? This Equus will not succeed in the U.S. as far as sales go. Volkswagen has tried Phaeton, failed. Mazda has tried Millenia and 929, failed. A separate brand is mandatory. It has nothing to do with the vehicle itself, it is the public's perception of the brand. Equus has the same badge as a Elantra, then it is doomed to fail.
i believe ls430 won a comparison back in 2004 or so? my memory isn't very good these days
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Old 01-05-11, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TwiBlueG35
Has any Lexus/Toyota vehicles ever won any comparsion test in C&D? This Equus will not succeed in the U.S. as far as sales go. Volkswagen has tried Phaeton, failed. Mazda has tried Millenia and 929, failed. A separate brand is mandatory. It has nothing to do with the vehicle itself, it is the public's perception of the brand. Equus has the same badge as a Elantra, then it is doomed to fail.
I can help answer that. To be honest Lexus seemed like damn near a C&D darling most of the 1990s. Lexus mostly finishes first or second in most comparos and I think the IS was 3rd in its first generation.

Somewhere in the mid to late 2000s C&D changed writers, editors, direction and Lexus was getting panned left and right.This included their new editor bashing Lexus in his editorial and in reviews tons of inaccurate statements in regards to the brand and downright bias.

Now to their credit as of late the LFA beat the 599 by a point and they recently raved about the 2011 IS F improvements. So I honestly don't see to much issue with this review as its to shock/awe and it took a LS priced 32k more than a Hyundai to win. Hyundai has to be given credit here, what they are offering is something most luxury brands don't even offer and its a pretty good first effort.

I wonder how good/better if any the 2nd gen Genesis/Equus will be. Yeah I'm thinking 5 years ahead but I wonder.

There is no shame in Lexus losing to the Equus here in a comparo. Its their opinion. There is shame in the luxury brands that can't even have a comparo in this realm as they don't have a car to compete and if anyone's image is taking a hit, its theirs again.

Hyundai can say "hey we offer a car that YOU don't"
 
Old 01-05-11, 06:46 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by edarte
More recently Lexus quality has suffered and, from this perspective, Hyundai’s timing is perfect.
What quality issues are you referring to? This is my 4th lexus:

'97 ES300
'04 LS430
'07 LS460
'10 LS460L

I haven't had any "quality" issues on any of the cars. I did have the wind noise & B-pillar issues in the '07, but I consider them more "1st model year" issues vs. quality issues. The quality of all my Lexus's (Lexi???) has been to notch. Significantly better, even, than my friend's BMW's/Mercs/Jags.

As for Hyundai, I think it's great that they are trying to produce high-end luxury cars. I haven't seen the Equis yet, from what I see on the Hyundai website, it's an LS knockoff/wannabe, which is fine with me. More incentive for Lexus to keep improving and staying ahead of the competition. Looks like they've got a long way to go on the interior. The seats looked pretty cheesy to me.

I will say that I don't think any luxury car will fly under the Hyundai line, though (VW Phaeton?). If you think about it, as an LS owner, would you really want to have to wait in line with a bunch of Yaris and Corolla owners? Not to be a snob, but I went to a couple of Toyota dealerships recently looking for some touchup paint for my Mom's Avalon, and I couldn't help but feel like I was in a bus station or something, with all of the people in the waiting room, sitting on fold-up type chairs, reading magazines waiting for their car, not to mention the smell of the service bay right outside the door. Contrast that with dropping my car off at Newport Lexus and being on the road in a Lexus loaner in less than 10 minutes. Or, grabbing lunch at the cafe and sitting in the lounge while they wash my car for free. Yeah, I know Hyundai is offering free pickup and delivery for all service with the Equis, but does anyone really think that's anything other than a launch gimmick that will probably be long gone in 18 months?

Anyway, Good luck Hyundai. As a proud Lexus LS owner, I hope to see plenty of Equis owners one the road with smiles on your faces. Just don't start driving like those BMW jerks...
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Old 01-05-11, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by TwiBlueG35
Has any Lexus/Toyota vehicles ever won any comparsion test in C&D? This Equus will not succeed in the U.S. as far as sales go. Volkswagen has tried Phaeton, failed. Mazda has tried Millenia and 929, failed. A separate brand is mandatory. It has nothing to do with the vehicle itself, it is the public's perception of the brand. Equus has the same badge as a Elantra, then it is doomed to fail.
I agree completely, but many Hyundai loyalists will disagree with you and tell you it can be done without a separate brand .
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Old 01-06-11, 04:47 PM
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dsc07

Regarding my point on Lexus Quality issues. I am referring to the wind noise, transmission, valve spring, VGRS steering, uncomfortable driver seats, brake noise issues.

The wind noise went on for more than the first year and, from what I have read, no perfect fix from Lexus has been issued yet and people rely on the Jmcraney fix to solve it best.

I too have had several Lexus and until my present 2009 LS460 SWB AWD I would have agreed with you. My ES300 and LS430 were virtually flawless and I can't say enough about the service I received. It was because of that experience that I halfheartedly tested the competition before quickly deciding on the LS460.

But I have now been living with a flawed transmission for the past seven months. At various speeds, especially uphill, under low to moderate acceleration, the car will mildly shake and it feels as if the transmission is constantly shifting in and out of gear. This is strong enough for the passenger to feel. (In fact when I first demonstrated to the Lexus mechanic he felt it right away in the passenger seat). I have been back for service three times and last week they told me they would go as far as replacing the transmission to fix it. Today they called back and told me Lexus is now saying it is within design specs and "as a goodwill gesture they are willing to replace the transmission fluid"!!

Others have posted about this less than perfect transmission. Some are lucky and feel it is smooth as silk. However others have said they live with it by never using it in drive and use the S6 setting instead. For a car like this we should not have to do that.

My friends cannot believe a car that costs this much performs this badly and that Lexus would not fix it immediately.

Needless to say this is not over yet but I never had a problem of this severity before and I certainly have not had to fight to get anything corrected.

Now, I accept that my case may be an unusual case but it is my own experience. And if you do a search on this web site (and others) you will see that there are a number of previous LS430 owners who are disappointed in the LS460.
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Old 01-06-11, 06:05 PM
  #66  
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This is the risk any me-too / wannabes run. They are never the benchmark to beat.
Hyundai is trying to beat Lexus at it's own game.
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Old 01-06-11, 07:12 PM
  #67  
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Wow, I KNOW I am in the minority with this statement: "I love Car and Driver." lol

But I do.

It's by FAR my favorite car magazine. I agree with 85% of their opinions, and even when I don't, I still enjoying reading the articles. I love the writing. I laugh out loud a lot at many of their comments, comparisons and analogies.

I don't care that the Equus won the comparison. It came down to value. That's fine. I don't care. Here's what we know: most people with the income to support a $65,000 aren't buying an Equus, just like people with the income to support a $100,000 car purchase didn't but the V12 VW Phaeton. Just not going to happen.

Why? If you have put your blood, sweat and tears into your career (whatever it is) and you have reached the point to buy an expensive car, you're going to buy not only a great car at that price point, but a car with panache. A car that makes you feel like "you've made it" just by saying the name of it. Lexus, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc. That's why it's hard for Caddies to move their most expensive models, Caddies just don't evoke enough "status" for most who are shopping for $60,000+ cars...no matter how much value is in the purchase.

I live in the Washington DC area, a place filled with high incomes. BMWs, Mercedes, Lexus, Audi....a dime a dozen. Cadillacs, rare. CTS-V Caddies? Almost nonexistent. Hyundai Genesis, very rare. Equus' will be even more so. Just like the Phaetons.

Once you reach that point in life, you just are not going to go out buy a "VW" or a "Hyundai". Maybe some rare person with A LOT of money, who already owns a few Mercedeses or a BMWs or a Lexuses may then go add to his fleet a Genesis or Equus, just "to be different", just "to be frugal". But the rest of us, who only have money for 1 or 2 nice cars MAX, almost none of us are buying a Hyundai or VW, no matter how much value it presents...unless they are flat giving them away. We want the panache, the KNOWN build quality, the history.

And you know what? Hyundai knows that. They're mostly building these fine, highly-copied higher end cars just to make Japan mad. Just to steal some isolated sales, and to make Japan livid for copying their machinery at a lowery price point. Korea and Japan have had a long rivalry, and it's just making its way into the automotive world now as well.

I'm glad Hyundai's building these cars though. Keeps Lexus and other luxury marks on their toes, giving us, the consumer, more value for our dollar.

As for Car & Driver, one of the main reasons I have a Lexus is because of C&D. They praised things about the GS that I knew I would treasure (the build quality, the serenity, the strong engine). I modded it the rest of the way to tune it to my liking. Otherwise, I just would have bought a BMW (almost did).

Still love my Lexus, but my next one WILL be German. Because there's just nothing like the teutonic ride of a german car if you love driving. Car&Driver honors that, sometimes above all else. Having been in enough Porsches, Audis and BMWs, I understand why they honor it. Lexus, Caddies, they just don't have that road feel. Even modding can't bring you that magical feel of precision and compliance already built into the german driving experience.

But in the end, it's all good. To each his own.

And don't worry, Hyundai's losing NO SLEEP because none of us (nor many others) will be buying their high-end cars. They're just making them as examples of what they can do. They're practicing. When they get real serious, we'll know. They'll change the name (like Toyota did), offer some incredible hybrid performance engines, with performance packages to boot...probably will make some high-end $75k coupe as well, and then we'll go, "Oh, NOW they're serious." And then the game will really be on.

Last edited by KevinGS; 01-07-11 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 01-06-11, 07:17 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by KevinGS
Wow, I KNOW I am in the minority with this statement: "I love Car and Driver." lol

But I do.

It's by FAR my favorite car magazine. I agree with 85% of their opinions, and even when I don't, I still enjoying reading the articles. I love the writing. I laugh out loud a lot at many of their comments, comparisons and analogies.

I don't care that the Equus won the comparison. It came down to value. That's fine. I don't care. Here's what we know: most people with the income to support a $65,000 aren't buying an Equus, just like people with the income to support a $100,000 car purchase didn't but the V12 VW Phaeton. Just not going to happen.

Why? If you have put your blood, sweat and tears into your career (whatever it is) and you have reached the point to buy an expensive car, you're going to buy not only a great car at that price point, but a car with panache. A car that makes you feel like "you've made it" just by saying the name of it. Lexus, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc. That's why it's hard for Caddies to move their most expensive models, Caddies just don't evoke enough "status" for most who are shopping for $60,000+ cars...no matter how much value is in the purchase.

I live in the Washington DC area, a place filled with high incomes. BMWs, Mercedes, Lexus, Audi....a dime a dozen. Cadillacs, rare. CTS-V Caddies? Almost nonexistent. Hyundai Genesis, very rare. Equus' will be even more so. Just like the Phaetons.

Once you reach that point in life, you just are not going to go out buy a "VW" or a "Hyundai". Maybe some rare person with A LOT of money, who already owns a Mercedes or a BMW or a Lexus may then go add to his fleet a Genesis or Equus, just "to be different". But the rest of us, who only has money for 1 or 2 nice cars, almost none of us are buying a Hyundai or VW, no matter how much value it presents...unless they are flat giving it away.

And you know what? Hyundai knows that. They're mostly building these fine, highly-copied higher end cars just to make Japan mad. Just to steal some isolated sales, and to make Japan livid for copying their machinery at a lowery price point. China and Japan have had a long rivalry, and it's just making its way into the automotive world now as well.

I'm glad Hyundai's building these cars though. Keeps Lexus and other luxury marks on their toes, giving us, the consumer, more value for our dollar.

As for Car & Driver, one of the main reasons I have a Lexus is because of C&D. They praised things about the GS that I knew I would treasure (the build quality, the serenity, the strong engine). I modded it the rest of the way to tune it to my liking. Otherwise, I just would have bought a BMW (almost did).

Still love my Lexus, but my next one's German. Because there's just nothing like the teutonic ride of a german car if you love driving. Car&Driver honors that, sometimes above all else. Having been in Porsches, Audis and BMWs, I understand why they honor it. Lexus, Caddies, they just don't have it. Even modding can't bring you that magical feel of precision and compliance.

So, in the end, it's all good. To each his own.

But don't worry, Hyundai's losing NO SLEEP because none of us (nor many others) will be buying their high-end cars. They're just making them as examples of what they can do. They're practicing. When they get real serious, e'll know. They'll change the name (like Toyota did), offer some incredible hybrid engines, with performance packages...and then we'll go, "Oh, NOW they're serious." And then the game will really be on.
Excellent post....mostly on point!

Except for the C&D being a good mag part...lol.
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Old 01-06-11, 08:21 PM
  #69  
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Yeah, let's all buy the Equus because of its super awesome owner's manual. WTF..
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Old 01-06-11, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinGS

And don't worry, Hyundai's losing NO SLEEP because none of us (nor many others) will be buying their high-end cars. They're just making them as examples of what they can do. They're practicing. When they get real serious, we'll know. They'll change the name (like Toyota did), offer some incredible hybrid performance engines, with performance packages to boot...probably will make some high-end $75k coupe as well, and then we'll go, "Oh, NOW they're serious." And then the game will really be on.
When Hyundai proves themselves with results and product, then we'll see. For now, it's nothing but a lot boasting and bold claims by Hyundai. They've done a lot of talking that they don't need a separate luxury brand.

I personally believe Hyundai is so arrogant that they actually do believe they can compete without a separate luxury brand. Besides, even if they wanted to make a separate luxury brand, they just don't have the patience and reputation to make it happen.

Hyundai is a very impatient and arrogant automaker, so much so that they often disregard tradition and heritage. Their models drastically change from one generation to the next, making it almost impossible to establish any sort of tradition or heritage for the brand. They're always desperately trying to copy the latest trend and their models are full of features and gimmicks that make them trendy in the here and now, but not necessarily a few years down the line.

Why do a lot of young people like even older BMWs and Porsches for example? It's simple, heritage and tradition. Both brands have very strong reputations because of it.

We shall see what the future brings.
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Old 01-07-11, 04:57 AM
  #71  
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There were the sales last month. LS sales went up. No one is dropping a LS or the others for this car. Sales will be added to the group if anything, maybe even from cars like the RL/M37/56/S80 with much less image than other brands.

Note the A8 had a huge jump. The Eqqus is what 15% of LS sales last month.
Large Luxury
LS- 1,516 and YTD 12,275, up 9%
7 series-1,024 and YTD 12,253 up 32% (now included 6 cylinder 740)
S Class-969 and YTD 13,608 up 21%
Panamera- 700 ytd 7741
XJ-
A8- 502
Equus-196 welcome Hyundai!!
 
Old 01-07-11, 08:39 AM
  #72  
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very nice! that might explain the sudden boost of new ls around my hood
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Old 01-07-11, 08:57 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
There were the sales last month. LS sales went up. No one is dropping a LS or the others for this car. Sales will be added to the group if anything, maybe even from cars like the RL/M37/56/S80 with much less image than other brands.

Note the A8 had a huge jump. The Eqqus is what 15% of LS sales last month.
Large Luxury
LS- 1,516 and YTD 12,275, up 9%
7 series-1,024 and YTD 12,253 up 32% (now included 6 cylinder 740)
S Class-969 and YTD 13,608 up 21%
Panamera- 700 ytd 7741
XJ-
A8- 502
Equus-196 welcome Hyundai!!
I agree, I see the Equus maybe taking some RL or S80 sales. The major full-size competition has little to worry about.
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Old 01-07-11, 02:34 PM
  #74  
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I just wish Hyundai would be more original. The Sonata is a great improvement in that regard, even though I flat out think it's ugly. The Equus, obviously, is heavily influenced by the LS. I was looking at a website the other day, and Hyundai has a new concept called the "Curb". Hello Nissan Juke. How about the Veloster? They came out with the concept after the Honda CR-Z came out. They're just copying whatever else others are doing, at least the timing of their concept releases indicates so.

But, got to give it to them(Hyundai) that people can seriously compare a Hyundai to a Lexus. I personally don't think it'll sell much, it just smells to much like the Phaeton.
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Old 01-07-11, 02:53 PM
  #75  
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Dealer called again so I went to see a loaded premium model. Pretty nice car will post my review tonight
 


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