For MMarshall: 1sickpreview 2011 Hyundai Equus
02-16-11, 11:18 PM
#31
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I know it's for 2010, but in case you want to extrapolate some numbers, it's not too hard.
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
02-16-11, 11:39 PM
#32
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Yeah, he gave percentages, which means we still have to extrapolate. The problem even with extrapolating is that he named some arbitrary cars as competitors. Krafcik can arbitrarily name some models as "competing" with the Genesis sedan, and make the percentage look better than it really is. He names 14 "entrants" in the segment, but we don't know what models those are, because Krafcik doesn't say. Do you see the problem there?
Point is, WHY is it so hard to just give the actual unit sales? Hyundai went out of their way to combine Genesis coupe and sedan sales, and has never given actual unit sales of the Genesis sedan in the US. They also refuse to split coupe and sedan sales, likely because splitting would make one or both look bad individually sales-wise. Hyundai has also gone out of their way to provide some obscure metric, like "percentage of retail sales in the segment" which no other competitor really boasts or talks about.
On that note, it's almost a relief Hyundai made the Equus as a separate model. I would not have been surprised if Hyundai had done something silly like call the Equus the "Genesis Supreme" in North America or something like that.
Point is, WHY is it so hard to just give the actual unit sales? Hyundai went out of their way to combine Genesis coupe and sedan sales, and has never given actual unit sales of the Genesis sedan in the US. They also refuse to split coupe and sedan sales, likely because splitting would make one or both look bad individually sales-wise. Hyundai has also gone out of their way to provide some obscure metric, like "percentage of retail sales in the segment" which no other competitor really boasts or talks about.
On that note, it's almost a relief Hyundai made the Equus as a separate model. I would not have been surprised if Hyundai had done something silly like call the Equus the "Genesis Supreme" in North America or something like that.
02-17-11, 12:44 AM
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^ agreed. Unfortunately, I find it rather difficult to get model based breakdowns for a lot of manufacturers. And although I would love to have it, I just don't have access to that information. Being that these quotes are often taken out of interviews and press statements, it's really hard to for them to get into precise detail anyway (and most people are not that thorough). It's not all too different from Scion's claims of owning the youngest demographic (most articles somehow end up tracing back to and/or quoting Jim Press).
But yeah, to narrow things down,
So yeah, ES, E class, 5 series, M, GS, MKS, and A6. To use his quote (assuming he is quoting his own facts correctly), that's 7 specific models they list out of 14. Given the vehicles listed, you could probably add the TL, RL, Volvo S60, S80, Jag XF, Caddy CTS, DTS, or some other near insignificant model(s). Whatever cars they used in the stats, if their sales numbers are close to ANY of those models, then consequently the percentages will be close too. MY main point was that regardless of what that number is, it's STILL impressive. It doesn't matter if they include sales of Toyota Corollas in there; percentage is percentage.
But yeah, to narrow things down,
6.3 percent [...] behind only the Lexus ES, Mercedes E-Class and BMW 5 Series. It's ahead of the other 14 entrants in the segment, including the Infiniti M, Lexus GS, Lincoln MKS and Audi A6.
Last edited by dj.ctwatt; 02-17-11 at 12:50 AM.
02-17-11, 12:52 AM
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^ sorry for all the edits. . . I wrote it in a hurry and keep noticing mistakes in my own writing. But yeah, even beating the Lincoln MKS and the A6 is a pretty big deal. I don't know if even Acura can boast that. . .
02-17-11, 02:36 AM
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The Acura TL, despite how ugly it currently is, outsells the Genesis sedan. However, it can be argued the TL does not compete with the Genesis sedan. According to Hyundai, it is the RL that competes with the Genesis, not the TL.
As for Scion having the youngest owners, we did get exact figures from Toyota. I believe the average age of a Scion owner is 29 years old, IIRC.
The fact that the Genesis coupe and Genesis sedan are two totally different cars, yet sales of the two are grouped together is quite ridiculous IMHO.
The reason I'm not satisfied with percentages is that we just don't know exactly what cars Hyundai is including in the "segment". They are arbitrarily including cars from both the entry-level luxury segment as well as the midsize luxury sedan segment, two different segments. The fact that Hyundai mentions BOTH the Lexus ES and GS only confirms they are arbitrarily talking about "segments", as the ES and GS are in two different segments.
There wouldn't even be any silly debate if Hyundai simply gave exact sales numbers for the Genesis sedan.
As for Scion having the youngest owners, we did get exact figures from Toyota. I believe the average age of a Scion owner is 29 years old, IIRC.
The fact that the Genesis coupe and Genesis sedan are two totally different cars, yet sales of the two are grouped together is quite ridiculous IMHO.
The reason I'm not satisfied with percentages is that we just don't know exactly what cars Hyundai is including in the "segment". They are arbitrarily including cars from both the entry-level luxury segment as well as the midsize luxury sedan segment, two different segments. The fact that Hyundai mentions BOTH the Lexus ES and GS only confirms they are arbitrarily talking about "segments", as the ES and GS are in two different segments.
There wouldn't even be any silly debate if Hyundai simply gave exact sales numbers for the Genesis sedan.
02-17-11, 06:20 AM
#36
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Just b/c YOU haven't heard of it, it doesn't mean it's a "myth" (it's not like I 'm gonna just make up stuff, unlike, ahem some people).
Hyundai USA CEO Krafcik stated this in an interview w/ InsideLine.
http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/eq...n-krafcik.html
From same Krafcik interview.
And note, w/ regard to the retail sales marketshare for the Genesis sedan, it is doing this w/o the benefit of having available AWD which is a killer for sales throughout a big part of the US (according to AutoNews, nearly HALF of the sales for the CTS sedan were for the AWD version).
Also, those sales goals were set prior to the Great Recession, and Hyundai's sales goal for the coupe, was overly optimistic considering the weak market for Asian coupes.
Nonetheless, as the economy has been slowly improving, the Genesis has seen a monthly year-over-year sales increase for 16 consecutive months.
OMG. Can't believe you are bringing up this "argument" again (like for the 10th time) - lol!
Fine, it's an "apples to oranges" comparison, but along those lines, any comparison of the LS400 to the German flagship sedans is also "apples to oranges" considering the LS400 way undercut the Germans in pricing.
Also, at least the Equus has the excuse of having to price accordingly due to not being sold under a brand/dealer network (if sold under a separate brand/dealer network, an additional $10-12K would have to be added to the price tag).
The original price of the LS400 is right about where the pricing of the Equus is today, and that's even having been sold under a separate brand/dealer network.
And gee, even today, I wonder what the price discrepancy is for an LS460 compared to a comparably equipped S Class?
Hint: it's a lot more than the $6K price differential M. Karesh cites btwn the IS350 and a comparably equipped BMW 335ix.
(Somehow, I have a feeling we are going to repeat this all over again.)
Hyundai USA CEO Krafcik stated this in an interview w/ InsideLine.
http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/eq...n-krafcik.html
From same Krafcik interview.
And note, w/ regard to the retail sales marketshare for the Genesis sedan, it is doing this w/o the benefit of having available AWD which is a killer for sales throughout a big part of the US (according to AutoNews, nearly HALF of the sales for the CTS sedan were for the AWD version).
Also, those sales goals were set prior to the Great Recession, and Hyundai's sales goal for the coupe, was overly optimistic considering the weak market for Asian coupes.
Nonetheless, as the economy has been slowly improving, the Genesis has seen a monthly year-over-year sales increase for 16 consecutive months.
OMG. Can't believe you are bringing up this "argument" again (like for the 10th time) - lol!
Fine, it's an "apples to oranges" comparison, but along those lines, any comparison of the LS400 to the German flagship sedans is also "apples to oranges" considering the LS400 way undercut the Germans in pricing.
Also, at least the Equus has the excuse of having to price accordingly due to not being sold under a brand/dealer network (if sold under a separate brand/dealer network, an additional $10-12K would have to be added to the price tag).
The original price of the LS400 is right about where the pricing of the Equus is today, and that's even having been sold under a separate brand/dealer network.
And gee, even today, I wonder what the price discrepancy is for an LS460 compared to a comparably equipped S Class?
Hint: it's a lot more than the $6K price differential M. Karesh cites btwn the IS350 and a comparably equipped BMW 335ix.
(Somehow, I have a feeling we are going to repeat this all over again.)
To help you understand better we have sales figures every month for these vehicles. We continue to get combined Genesis figures. So until it is posted what the exact numbers are it is all speculative.
The only thing we DO KNOW is the Genesis hasn't come remotely close to its sales goal of 50k a year.
Your redundant anti LS argument doesn't work. What you fail to realize is the LS had its own dealer network and was and still is considered one of the finest cars in class and ever built. The original LS was one of the greatest cars to ever debut and sent the entire industry back to the drawing boards. The fact the price was cheaper was just icing on the cake, people PERCEIVE it to be BETTER regardless of the price.
In contrast the Genesis and Equus are not seen as better than the competition and has sent no one back to the drawing boards and has not shook the industry up. They HAVE to sell on cheaper price. They are good cars but not class leading in anyway outside of price. No one sees them as better outside of price. They are merely value options. Again good cars but until they are quieter, sportier, faster, more luxurious, more technology, etc well they were just be also-rans.
Huge difference in execution. The LS was a an all time great, the Genesis/Equus are great for Hyundai.
Lexus has proven itself to be one of the most successful brands in a short history. Hyundai clearly targeted Lexus, the Equus is clearly derivative of the LS. Stop trying to marginalize Lexus to somehow try to make Hyundai look better than it is without any figures and numbers outside of "myths".
02-17-11, 06:24 AM
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^ if you had read his link, you'd see that they break down those market percentages as Genesis (implying sedan) and Genesis Coupe (which is, err, the coupe). I know it's confusing since they share the same name, and many car companies lump the sales altogther (like they do with the Yaris 5 dr, 4 dr, and 3 dr).
The Genesis sedan has 6.3% of the market, and the coupe has 5.1% of its respective market. And to be fair, both vehicles have very little to do with eachother besides the name. . . a stupid move on Hyundai's part.
I guess if you want more specific numbers, you can find the total vehicles sold for that segment and extrapolate from the percentage. I don't know. I just wanted to see if the numbers were made up or he heard it from somebody's cousin's uncle's roommate's hyundai salesman. But coming from Krafcik himself, even without the numbers, 6.3% market share is impressive. Acura can survive off less than that!
The Genesis sedan has 6.3% of the market, and the coupe has 5.1% of its respective market. And to be fair, both vehicles have very little to do with eachother besides the name. . . a stupid move on Hyundai's part.
I guess if you want more specific numbers, you can find the total vehicles sold for that segment and extrapolate from the percentage. I don't know. I just wanted to see if the numbers were made up or he heard it from somebody's cousin's uncle's roommate's hyundai salesman. But coming from Krafcik himself, even without the numbers, 6.3% market share is impressive. Acura can survive off less than that!
1. We don't have exact figures like everyone else
2. It is 20-50 thousand dollars cheaper
3. Reviews pit the V-6 Genesis vs cars like the ES, Lacrosse, Avalon etc.
No problem, good posts!
02-17-11, 07:10 AM
#38
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^ thanks
And sorry to back up a bit guys, but what the heck was the point of all this anyway? You guys (1SICKLEX and TRDFantasy) have solid points. I have no idea about any of Yeh's prior posts before this thread, so I can't say anything about that...
If ((#ofGS Sold / market) x 100) < ((#ofGenesis Sedan Sold / market) x 100), then #ofGS sold < #ofGenesis sedan sold.
^above^ = % market share
But like you guys said, with the price gap and feature difference (being a product that sells because of a lower price rather then selling as a superior product), it means jack diddly squat. I haven't seen any LS arguments from Yeh yet, but you guys did bring it up. And you're right that the LS's original success was because it was a superior product that completely walked all over the leaders of the time. Neither the Genesis nor the Equus walk over anyone, unless you are talking value and price.
And even if it was competitive and sold for the same price, it's still fairly expected to outsell the GS. . . a product at the end of its lifecycle and ready to be refreshed. It's a big reason it trails the E class and 5 series (both recently redone). And how many RWD mid-size import sedans are there on the market anyway? Imagine a race with 4 runners, placing third, and bragging how only two people were faster than you. You're still pretty much in last place.
And yeah, ultimately, none of this matters anyway if they aren't hitting their sales targets. Impressive or not, failing to hit goals is failing. I'm sure they outsold the Bugatti Veyron too but hey. . . wait the Maserati Quattroporte is a RWD import. I'm sure they outsold that too? How about the Panamera?
And sorry to back up a bit guys, but what the heck was the point of all this anyway? You guys (1SICKLEX and TRDFantasy) have solid points. I have no idea about any of Yeh's prior posts before this thread, so I can't say anything about that...
If ((#ofGS Sold / market) x 100) < ((#ofGenesis Sedan Sold / market) x 100), then #ofGS sold < #ofGenesis sedan sold.
^above^ = % market share
But like you guys said, with the price gap and feature difference (being a product that sells because of a lower price rather then selling as a superior product), it means jack diddly squat. I haven't seen any LS arguments from Yeh yet, but you guys did bring it up. And you're right that the LS's original success was because it was a superior product that completely walked all over the leaders of the time. Neither the Genesis nor the Equus walk over anyone, unless you are talking value and price.
And even if it was competitive and sold for the same price, it's still fairly expected to outsell the GS. . . a product at the end of its lifecycle and ready to be refreshed. It's a big reason it trails the E class and 5 series (both recently redone). And how many RWD mid-size import sedans are there on the market anyway? Imagine a race with 4 runners, placing third, and bragging how only two people were faster than you. You're still pretty much in last place.
And yeah, ultimately, none of this matters anyway if they aren't hitting their sales targets. Impressive or not, failing to hit goals is failing. I'm sure they outsold the Bugatti Veyron too but hey. . . wait the Maserati Quattroporte is a RWD import. I'm sure they outsold that too? How about the Panamera?
Last edited by dj.ctwatt; 02-17-11 at 07:15 AM.
02-19-11, 12:50 PM
#39
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Yeah, he gave percentages, which means we still have to extrapolate. The problem even with extrapolating is that he named some arbitrary cars as competitors. Krafcik can arbitrarily name some models as "competing" with the Genesis sedan, and make the percentage look better than it really is. He names 14 "entrants" in the segment, but we don't know what models those are, because Krafcik doesn't say. Do you see the problem there?
Point is, WHY is it so hard to just give the actual unit sales? Hyundai went out of their way to combine Genesis coupe and sedan sales, and has never given actual unit sales of the Genesis sedan in the US. They also refuse to split coupe and sedan sales, likely because splitting would make one or both look bad individually sales-wise. Hyundai has also gone out of their way to provide some obscure metric, like "percentage of retail sales in the segment" which no other competitor really boasts or talks about.
Last edited by YEH; 02-19-11 at 12:57 PM.
02-19-11, 01:28 PM
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Your Hyundai rhetoric is old and tired and no one is buying it here. You have shown us NO FIGURES, no numbers, no stats. Its all heresay. He puts it behind the ES, well he should b/c the Genesis is prices like an ES, it is 20-50 grand CHEAPER than the competition you try to put it against.
Hmmmm... Who exactly is the one spouting the rhetoric?
The issue here was whether the Genesis sedan outselling the GS, M and A6 was a myth - and Krafcik clearly states that it does (remember, it was you that was the one spouting that it was "myth").
Now, whether you choose to believe him is another issue (kinda like you choosing not to believe the reviews where Lexus doesn't come out on top), but one would think that the other automakers would have called out Krafcik if the nos. didn't hold true.
But nonetheless, if one wants exact monthly sales figures as to such, one only needs to look at the monthly sales figures for the Genesis sedan before the coupe was launched, where it was outselling the GS, M and A6.
Since then month over month sales of the Genesis have increased while the sales of the GS have dropped even further (btw, isn't this the time for you to "explain away" the GS' dramatic drop-off in sales once again? Or have you finally given that up).
Your redundant anti LS argument doesn't work. What you fail to realize is the LS had its own dealer network and was and still is considered one of the finest cars in class and ever built. The original LS was one of the greatest cars to ever debut and sent the entire industry back to the drawing boards. The fact the price was cheaper was just icing on the cake, people PERCEIVE it to be BETTER regardless of the price.
This would be funnier if it weren't so pitiful.
For the umpteenth time, this isn't about the merits of the LS400, but the pricing strategy for the LS400 at its start.
If one is going to ding the Equus for being cheaper in the segment, than one also has to ding the LS400 since it was just as cheap (taking into account today's dollars).
Actually, comparitively, the LS400 was even more of a bargain at its time since the S Class and 7 Series were even more overpriced than they are now and the LS was at the level of pricing for the Equus even tho it was being sold under a luxury brand in a separate dealer network.
If the Equus was sold under similar conditions, Hyundai would have to tag an extra $10-12K to the pricetage of the "Genesis Equus. "
In contrast the Genesis and Equus are not seen as better than the competition and has sent no one back to the drawing boards and has not shook the industry up. They HAVE to sell on cheaper price. They are good cars but not class leading in anyway outside of price. No one sees them as better outside of price. They are merely value options. Again good cars but until they are quieter, sportier, faster, more luxurious, more technology, etc well they were just be also-rans.
Huge difference in execution. The LS was a an all time great, the Genesis/Equus are great for Hyundai.
Huge difference in execution. The LS was a an all time great, the Genesis/Equus are great for Hyundai.
Once again, I repeat that the LS400 was a striking car for its day, humbling the Germans.
But at the same time, the auto world was quite diff., much less competition w/ the Germans resting on their laurels.
It is much more difficult, if not impossible, for any automaker to be drastically ahead these days.
Yeah, the LS400 was great for its time, but its successor, the LS460 (which is better than the LS400) is about on par - and most would say the Equus is about on par w/ the LS460 (aside from the dash/center stack).
02-19-11, 02:52 PM
#41
I don't know why you keep comparing Genesis sales to GS, M and A6 when its priced like ES, G and A4 and fails to outsell or even come close to these.
What do you think would happen to sales of GS, M and A6 if they dropped their prices to ES, G and A4 levels?
It is silly to compare Haiyondies pricing strategy with Lexus. One goes up and the other is going in reverse.
Its silly to say that Equis and LS are anywhere near close. LS outsold BMW and MB combined when debuted and remains the sales leader in its class year after year, and the Equis is the newest, cheapest and yet the least selling car in its class and even the lower class.
What do you think would happen to sales of GS, M and A6 if they dropped their prices to ES, G and A4 levels?
It is silly to compare Haiyondies pricing strategy with Lexus. One goes up and the other is going in reverse.
Its silly to say that Equis and LS are anywhere near close. LS outsold BMW and MB combined when debuted and remains the sales leader in its class year after year, and the Equis is the newest, cheapest and yet the least selling car in its class and even the lower class.
02-20-11, 12:57 AM
#42
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I don't know why you keep comparing Genesis sales to GS, M and A6 when its priced like ES, G and A4 and fails to outsell or even come close to these.
What do you think would happen to sales of GS, M and A6 if they dropped their prices to ES, G and A4 levels?
It is silly to compare Haiyondies pricing strategy with Lexus. One goes up and the other is going in reverse.
Its silly to say that Equis and LS are anywhere near close. LS outsold BMW and MB combined when debuted and remains the sales leader in its class year after year, and the Equis is the newest, cheapest and yet the least selling car in its class and even the lower class.
What do you think would happen to sales of GS, M and A6 if they dropped their prices to ES, G and A4 levels?
It is silly to compare Haiyondies pricing strategy with Lexus. One goes up and the other is going in reverse.
Its silly to say that Equis and LS are anywhere near close. LS outsold BMW and MB combined when debuted and remains the sales leader in its class year after year, and the Equis is the newest, cheapest and yet the least selling car in its class and even the lower class.
The Infiniti G37 is similar size as the Genesis, has similar options, is similar price-wise and is RWD like the Genesis. The G37 consistently outsells the Genesis sedan, despite not having a V8 option.
Imagine if cars like the Infiniti G, TL, or ES had more engine options than they do now? They would be outselling the Genesis sedan even more.
Hyundai marketing is shoving down people's throats the idea the Genesis sedan competes with cars a class above, when it obviously does not.
LS when it came out was cheaper than the S-Class and & 7 yes, but it had the BEST quality in its class, and it offered worlds-first features that neither the 7 nor S-Class had at the time. It shook the industry up while being cheaper than the competition.
The Equus has done nothing to the industry or the competition, it is a merely "good enough" entry, and many features are not even implemented properly. For example, the rear seat with reclining footrest is poorly implemented as even with the passenger seat moved forward it is simply far too small for taller people. Hyundai simply mimicked major features the competition already has, but they did not go beyond the competition in any way really. That is why the Equus competes on price, and price alone.
02-20-11, 06:17 PM
#43
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Not surprising that you are trying to weasel out of this one as well.
Your tone is getting tired. Watch it.
Hmmmm... Who exactly is the one spouting the rhetoric?
The issue here was whether the Genesis sedan outselling the GS, M and A6 was a myth - and Krafcik clearly states that it does (remember, it was you that was the one spouting that it was "myth").
Now, whether you choose to believe him is another issue (kinda like you choosing not to believe the reviews where Lexus doesn't come out on top), but one would think that the other automakers would have called out Krafcik if the nos. didn't hold true.
1. The Genesis starts at 32-45k. GS 45-65k. How this huge fact is missed by you is beyond everyone.
2. The GS sold over 25,000 units 5 or 6 times. The Genesis coupe AND sedan do that. The GS sold over 32k units in 2006. The Genesis sedan has NEVER sold like that.
3. You have YET TO POST INDIVIDUAL GENESIS SEDAN FIGURES. Until then BE QUIET.
4. Reviews pit the V-6 Genesis vs the ES, Lacrosse, Avalon etc. Not the higher end competitors.
5. You can go to Costco and go to aisle 3 and get a Genesis sedan for 28k
To help you understand better, the issue was never the exact figures of Genesis sedan sales, but how it sold compared to models such as the GS.
But nonetheless, if one wants exact monthly sales figures as to such, one only needs to look at the monthly sales figures for the Genesis sedan before the coupe was launched, where it was outselling the GS, M and A6.
Since then month over month sales of the Genesis have increased while the sales of the GS have dropped even further (btw, isn't this the time for you to "explain away" the GS' dramatic drop-off in sales once again? Or have you finally given that up).
No reasonable person is going to compare sales figures when one doesn't HAVE THEM. How can you say the Genesis outsells anything? We don't know the exact sales figures! The GS is old, on the way out. The GS sold 32k and 25k its first two years. The Gen, we know its IMPOSSIBLE it sold that well. You want to harp on the GS late years and ignore when it sold well.
Bottom line get off the GS, its been around since 1993, its the most successful Asian luxury sport sedan of all time. The GS paves the way for the Genesis.
YOU CANNOT LEASE A GS for $399, you can LEASE a Genesis for $399.
No - we know the Genesis sedan is outselling the GS, etc. and even taking into a 50/50% split for sedan and coupe sales, the sedan isn't that far off from its initial sales goal of 20K (which was projected prior to the Great Recession w/ bigger new car sales in mind).
Show proof. EVIDENCE of this split. SHOW US THE NUMBERS!!!
Sigh!
This would be funnier if it weren't so pitiful.
That someone that doesn't own a Hyundai nor luxury car is on a Lexus forum telling us how the Genesis outsells the GS without showing anyone sales figures.
Now that is pitiful.
For the umpteenth time, this isn't about the merits of the LS400, but the pricing strategy for the LS400 at its start.
You don't know ANYTHING about the pricing strategy and you refuse to point out the LS was a better car and the cheaper price was a bonus.
If one is going to ding the Equus for being cheaper in the segment, than one also has to ding the LS400 since it was just as cheap (taking into account today's dollars).
Here you go, back to 1989 again Marty, where the two cars and brands are completely different. How about lets talk about the cars Hyundai sold in 1989. Oh, that wouldn't be fun would it. 
Actually, comparitively, the LS400 was even more of a bargain at its time since the S Class and 7 Series were even more overpriced than they are now and the LS was at the level of pricing for the Equus even tho it was being sold under a luxury brand in a separate dealer network.
Your endless desire to crap over the original LS is well noted now. Thanks.
If the Equus was sold under similar conditions, Hyundai would have to tag an extra $10-12K to the pricetage of the "Genesis Equus. "
"IF". How about "IF the USA didn't protect S.Korea with our military where would Hyundai be?
Do you want to bring up "Ifs"?
Not that is actually any part of the issue at hand.
Once again, I repeat that the LS400 was a striking car for its day, humbling the Germans.
But at the same time, the auto world was quite diff., much less competition w/ the Germans resting on their laurels.
It is much more difficult, if not impossible, for any automaker to be drastically ahead these days.
Yeah, the LS400 was great for its time, but its successor, the LS460 (which is better than the LS400) is about on par - and most would say the Equus is about on par w/ the LS460 (aside from the dash/center stack).
Blah blah blah
Your tone is getting tired. Watch it.
Hmmmm... Who exactly is the one spouting the rhetoric?
The issue here was whether the Genesis sedan outselling the GS, M and A6 was a myth - and Krafcik clearly states that it does (remember, it was you that was the one spouting that it was "myth").
Now, whether you choose to believe him is another issue (kinda like you choosing not to believe the reviews where Lexus doesn't come out on top), but one would think that the other automakers would have called out Krafcik if the nos. didn't hold true.
1. The Genesis starts at 32-45k. GS 45-65k. How this huge fact is missed by you is beyond everyone.
2. The GS sold over 25,000 units 5 or 6 times. The Genesis coupe AND sedan do that. The GS sold over 32k units in 2006. The Genesis sedan has NEVER sold like that.
3. You have YET TO POST INDIVIDUAL GENESIS SEDAN FIGURES. Until then BE QUIET.
4. Reviews pit the V-6 Genesis vs the ES, Lacrosse, Avalon etc. Not the higher end competitors.
5. You can go to Costco and go to aisle 3 and get a Genesis sedan for 28k
To help you understand better, the issue was never the exact figures of Genesis sedan sales, but how it sold compared to models such as the GS.
But nonetheless, if one wants exact monthly sales figures as to such, one only needs to look at the monthly sales figures for the Genesis sedan before the coupe was launched, where it was outselling the GS, M and A6.
Since then month over month sales of the Genesis have increased while the sales of the GS have dropped even further (btw, isn't this the time for you to "explain away" the GS' dramatic drop-off in sales once again? Or have you finally given that up).
No reasonable person is going to compare sales figures when one doesn't HAVE THEM. How can you say the Genesis outsells anything? We don't know the exact sales figures! The GS is old, on the way out. The GS sold 32k and 25k its first two years. The Gen, we know its IMPOSSIBLE it sold that well. You want to harp on the GS late years and ignore when it sold well.
Bottom line get off the GS, its been around since 1993, its the most successful Asian luxury sport sedan of all time. The GS paves the way for the Genesis. YOU CANNOT LEASE A GS for $399, you can LEASE a Genesis for $399.
No - we know the Genesis sedan is outselling the GS, etc. and even taking into a 50/50% split for sedan and coupe sales, the sedan isn't that far off from its initial sales goal of 20K (which was projected prior to the Great Recession w/ bigger new car sales in mind).
Show proof. EVIDENCE of this split. SHOW US THE NUMBERS!!!
Sigh!
This would be funnier if it weren't so pitiful.
That someone that doesn't own a Hyundai nor luxury car is on a Lexus forum telling us how the Genesis outsells the GS without showing anyone sales figures.
Now that is pitiful.
For the umpteenth time, this isn't about the merits of the LS400, but the pricing strategy for the LS400 at its start.
You don't know ANYTHING about the pricing strategy and you refuse to point out the LS was a better car and the cheaper price was a bonus.
If one is going to ding the Equus for being cheaper in the segment, than one also has to ding the LS400 since it was just as cheap (taking into account today's dollars).
Here you go, back to 1989 again Marty, where the two cars and brands are completely different.
How about lets talk about the cars Hyundai sold in 1989. Oh, that wouldn't be fun would it. Actually, comparitively, the LS400 was even more of a bargain at its time since the S Class and 7 Series were even more overpriced than they are now and the LS was at the level of pricing for the Equus even tho it was being sold under a luxury brand in a separate dealer network.
Your endless desire to crap over the original LS is well noted now. Thanks.
If the Equus was sold under similar conditions, Hyundai would have to tag an extra $10-12K to the pricetage of the "Genesis Equus. "
"IF". How about "IF the USA didn't protect S.Korea with our military where would Hyundai be?
Do you want to bring up "Ifs"?
Not that is actually any part of the issue at hand.
Once again, I repeat that the LS400 was a striking car for its day, humbling the Germans.
But at the same time, the auto world was quite diff., much less competition w/ the Germans resting on their laurels.
It is much more difficult, if not impossible, for any automaker to be drastically ahead these days.
Yeah, the LS400 was great for its time, but its successor, the LS460 (which is better than the LS400) is about on par - and most would say the Equus is about on par w/ the LS460 (aside from the dash/center stack).
Blah blah blah
I have an idea, lets talk about the crap Hyundai was selling in 1989. How about you talk about that and stop talking about the LS. Your lack of respect for Lexus accomplishments is astonishing. If Lexus and cars like the GS/LS didn't forge the way for Hyundai, there would be no Equus or Genesis. The success/failures of the GS/LS were what Hyundai watched, copied and tried to replicate. Its amazing to see your blatant disrespect for the cars and brand when all Hyundai has done is try to copy Lexus.
This is not the place to bump Hyundai posts to post a anti-Lexus pro Hyundai tirade when the threads originally were clean and positive and not going anywhere near that direction.
02-20-11, 06:28 PM
#44
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee.
02-20-11, 06:38 PM
#45
Forum Administrator
iTrader: (2)
This thread has gone entirely off from the orginal purpose of the Equus review and has been growing more and more combative and personal in responses.
Let's give it a break please.
Let's give it a break please.
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